Hi there,

In the german Moseisley board there is a discussion going about the combination of Daredevil and Kanan Jarrus.

Daredevil says:

Action: Execute a white [left turn 1] or [right turn 1] manouevre. Then, receive 1 stress token. (etc.)

Kanan Jarrus says:

Once per round, after a friendly ship at range 1-2 executes a white manoeuvre, you may remove 1 stress token from that ship

Now we will probably all agree that the white manouevre will be able to trigger Kanan's ability. But will it resolve before the stress token (from Daredevil) is received or not?

In one opinion, Kanan will trigger before the stress token (immediately after the manouevre of Daredevil).

In the other opinion, the "Then receive 1 stress token" and "After a friendly ship executes a white manouevre..." resolve at the same time and the player may therefore choose what to resolve first (and take advantage of Kanan to immediately remove the stress again).

I don't think there has been a case like this before, has it? What will be the correct way to resolve the situation?

Best regards!

Kanan does not trigger after receiving a stress token. He triggers after the maneuver. Which is before receiving the stress token.

I think the timing is pretty clearly do this, then this.

You execute the Daredevil maneuver, resolve Kanan and then receive a stress token. You have to complete the maneuver part of Daredevil and triggers related to it before dumping on the stress token on as the last thing.

Kanan doesn't let you remove the stress from Daredevil, because he triggers when you execute the manoeuvre and Daredevil adds the stress afterwards.

There are a couple of situations where Daredevil could remove a stress via Kanan, if you had Chopper crew on the ship, or Tycho was doing it, and the ship concerned had a stress already. But that's kind of corner-case-y.

Triggering Kanan and receiving the stress from daredevil are both triggering after the maneuver is performed. That would make it your choice which comes first. This would be the same thing as nesting actions with PtL and Experimental Interface, you can trigger an additional card (EI) in between performing the PTL action and receiving the PtL stress.

Triggering Kanan and receiving the stress from daredevil are both triggering after the maneuver is performed. That would make it your choice which comes first. This would be the same thing as nesting actions with PtL and Experimental Interface, you can trigger an additional card (EI) in between performing the PTL action and receiving the PtL stress.

Put another way, I don't think you have the option to receive the stress from PtL before taking your EI, not just because you can't take the EI action while stressed, but because the way the nested effect works forces that timing.

Triggering Kanan and receiving the stress from daredevil are both triggering after the maneuver is performed. That would make it your choice which comes first. This would be the same thing as nesting actions with PtL and Experimental Interface, you can trigger an additional card (EI) in between performing the PTL action and receiving the PtL stress.

The stress from Daredevil isn't triggering off of the maneuver, it's a continuation of the effect of the action. Abilities that trigger off of the maneuver are pausing Daredevil's effect to resolve; once they're all finished resolving, the effect of DD continues, you move on to the "Then" sentence, and you receive a stress. There's no precedent that would allow you to delay Kanan's trigger until an unrelated part of the effect has finished resolving.

what you COULD DO. is have a ship with DD + Kanan + EI.

1. Take an action
2. receive stress from EI to trigger
3. Daredevil
4. Kanan to remove EI Stress
5. complete Daredevil
6. receive DD stress.
7. end turn with original action and DD only 1 stress

what you COULD DO. is have a ship with DD + Kanan + EI.

• Take an action
• receive stress from EI to trigger
• Daredevil
• Kanan to remove EI Stress
• complete Daredevil
• receive DD stress.
• end turn with original action and DD only 1 stress

• Perform an action
  • Trigger EI
  • Daredevil
    • Execute white 1 turn
      • Trigger Kanan
      • Nothing for Kanan to do.
    • Receive Stress from Daredevil
  • Receive Stress from EI

Triggering Kanan and receiving the stress from daredevil are both triggering after the maneuver is performed. That would make it your choice which comes first. This would be the same thing as nesting actions with PtL and Experimental Interface, you can trigger an additional card (EI) in between performing the PTL action and receiving the PtL stress.

The stress from Daredevil isn't triggering off of the maneuver, it's a continuation of the effect of the action. Abilities that trigger off of the maneuver are pausing Daredevil's effect to resolve; once they're all finished resolving, the effect of DD continues, you move on to the "Then" sentence, and you receive a stress. There's no precedent that would allow you to delay Kanan's trigger until an unrelated part of the effect has finished resolving.

But we don't have an action chain here. Kanan doesn't trigger after you finish processing the Daredevil action. He triggers after you finish the maneuver that is part of Daredevil.

What I'm not sure about is whether you finish processing everything triggered by the maneuver before you move on to the separate "Then" clause. I could honestly see this being ruled either way but I'm leaning towards thinking that the "after executing a manuever" happens before the "Then" clause and doesn't let Kanan clear the stress from Daredevil.

*EDIT: I'm not sure what I thought I was quoting when I wrote this. I seem to be in complete agreement with the post I ended up replying to.

what you COULD DO. is have a ship with DD + Kanan + EI.

1. Take an action
2. receive stress from EI to trigger
3. Daredevil

Does not work. If you have a stress token (from 2.) you cannot perform any action, including the daredevil action in step 3.

Receiving the stress happens after executing the maneuver, and then the Daredevil action is over. Kanan triggers after executing the maneuver as well, as stated on the card. The rules clearly states that 2 effects that happen at the same time are resolved in the order chosen by the player.

The EI and PtL example is the same. But the player always chooses PtL/EI before the stress, because the stress would otherwise block the action. So this can not be cited as a precedent that an effect happens before the stress. It is a player choice. For PtL/EI the default choice is action before stress. For Daredevil + Kanan the default coice will be Stress before Kanan.

Receiving the stress happens after executing the maneuver, and then the Daredevil action is over. Kanan triggers after executing the maneuver as well, as stated on the card. The rules clearly states that 2 effects that happen at the same time are resolved in the order chosen by the player.

The EI and PtL example is the same. But the player always chooses PtL/EI before the stress, because the stress would otherwise block the action. So this can not be cited as a precedent that an effect happens before the stress. It is a player choice. For PtL/EI the default choice is action before stress. For Daredevil + Kanan the default coice will be Stress before Kanan.

I don't believe that this is true. The PTL nested action was never about "player choice." It's simply that a card can resolve if it is triggered in the middle of resolving another card. PTL clearly says "do this, then this." The logical process is you do the action and then receive a stress. You can't choose to do the "then" part before the "if" part.

Receiving the stress happens after executing the maneuver, and then the Daredevil action is over. Kanan triggers after executing the maneuver as well, as stated on the card. The rules clearly states that 2 effects that happen at the same time are resolved in the order chosen by the player.

The EI and PtL example is the same. But the player always chooses PtL/EI before the stress, because the stress would otherwise block the action. So this can not be cited as a precedent that an effect happens before the stress. It is a player choice. For PtL/EI the default choice is action before stress. For Daredevil + Kanan the default coice will be Stress before Kanan.

Receiving the stress happens after executing the maneuver, and then the Daredevil action is over. Kanan triggers after executing the maneuver as well, as stated on the card. The rules clearly states that 2 effects that happen at the same time are resolved in the order chosen by the player.

The real question that needs to be answered is whether "after executing a maneuver" is actually the same timing as the "Then" in "Execute a maneuver. Then do something else".

If those are the same timing, then the player that owns those effects may determine the order in which they resolve.

If those are different timings (which is where I'm leaning) then Kanan won't be able to clear the stress caused by Daredevil.

I don't think an EI nest would work because DD would be resolving inside the EI loop.

I think that a PtL nest could work although that means you're looking at an A-Wing to get DD and PtL. The DD action trigger's PtL allowing another action. That other action resolves and Stress is gained. DD then resolves with the maneuver trigger Kanan allowing the removal of the PtL Stress before gaining the DD stress.

At least that's the way I think it should work otherwise how could PtL work getting triggered by DD if DD gives a Stress before PtL gets to give its action first.

I don't think an EI nest would work because DD would be resolving inside the EI loop.

I think that a PtL nest could work although that means you're looking at an A-Wing to get DD and PtL. The DD action trigger's PtL allowing another action. That other action resolves and Stress is gained. DD then resolves with the maneuver trigger Kanan allowing the removal of the PtL Stress before gaining the DD stress.

At least that's the way I think it should work otherwise how could PtL work getting triggered by DD if DD gives a Stress before PtL gets to give its action first.

You can't use Daredevil to trigger PTL unless you have a way to perform actions while stressed. Daredevil deals it's stress before you complete the action. PTL doesn't trigger until after your action.

The answers perfectly show what I experienced with that question so far.

Half of the people agree that "then" is the same time as an "after" trigger, the other half agrees that an "after" trigger always interrupts and comes before the following "then".

Receiving the stress happens after executing the maneuver, and then the Daredevil action is over. Kanan triggers after executing the maneuver as well, as stated on the card. The rules clearly states that 2 effects that happen at the same time are resolved in the order chosen by the player.

The real question that needs to be answered is whether "after executing a maneuver" is actually the same timing as the "Then" in "Execute a maneuver. Then do something else".

If those are the same timing, then the player that owns those effects may determine the order in which they resolve.

If those are different timings (which is where I'm leaning) then Kanan won't be able to clear the stress caused by Daredevil.

Why are you leaning towards different timings? is it because you think this is how it should be? Or is it based on how other cards are usually used? Or something in the RRG?

Ask yourself: When I perform Daredevil, when do I receive the Stress Token. Is the answer not 'After performing the maneuver'? I would say it is.

Why are you leaning towards different timings? is it because you think this is how it should be? Or is it based on how other cards are usually used? Or something in the RRG?

Ask yourself: When I perform Daredevil, when do I receive the Stress Token. Is the answer not 'After performing the maneuver'? I would say it is.

One perspective (the one I happen to hold) is: card effects have exactly one timing trigger, and once you start resolving them, you're in a sequence that works just like the sequences described in the rules. That is, you keep going through the sequence until it's done, but you can interrupt the sequence if at some point some other effect's timing trigger is satisfied. Put another way, card effects with multiple steps describe a sequence, and the rules on timing (and especially a player's ability to choose in which order to resolve events with the same timing) only apply at the beginning of a given card's sequence.

The other perspective seems to be that any part of a multi-step effect counts as a triggered event "after" the preceding one, and all normal timing rules apply. So you can treat receiving the stress at the end of Experimental Interface as an effect that triggers "after" the previous step, which is performing an action, and if you have something else that triggers "after" performing that action (e.g. PtL), you can choose the order in which they resolve.

I don't have a citation or precedent to point to on this. As far as I know, we haven't really found a situation where the distinction matters before now. Either the nested PtL action during EI works because you have to resolve PtL before taking the EI stress, or it works because you choose to do it in that order. But once the Ghost hits, we can ask whether you can choose to resolve Kanan after the Daredevil stress.

If it turns out that you can, the immediate follow-up question will be aimed at determining whether all sequences count as triggered timing chains, or just ones on cards. For instance, in the rules the first thing that comes after Execute Maneuver is Perform Action. If you execute a white maneuver (the regular way, not with Daredevil), can you choose to resolve your Perform Action step before Kanan because both of those things happen "after" you execute the maneuver? If not, why not?

Receiving the stress happens after executing the maneuver, and then the Daredevil action is over. Kanan triggers after executing the maneuver as well, as stated on the card. The rules clearly states that 2 effects that happen at the same time are resolved in the order chosen by the player.

The real question that needs to be answered is whether "after executing a maneuver" is actually the same timing as the "Then" in "Execute a maneuver. Then do something else".

If those are the same timing, then the player that owns those effects may determine the order in which they resolve.

If those are different timings (which is where I'm leaning) then Kanan won't be able to clear the stress caused by Daredevil.

Why are you leaning towards different timings? is it because you think this is how it should be? Or is it based on how other cards are usually used? Or something in the RRG?

Ask yourself: When I perform Daredevil, when do I receive the Stress Token. Is the answer not 'After performing the maneuver'? I would say it is.

Based on other cards and their established interactions it is clear that there is more than just a few timing windows that at first glance would seem to be the same, actually use different wording and are handled separately. A lot of the timings that hit in the Compare Results step are examples of this.

You absolutely get the stress token after performing the maneuver. I don't think that's in question at all. What is less clear is whether "after the maneuver" happens at the same time as a "then" clause in an ability. I don't think that it does.

I would think that you handle all of the triggers that are directly related to the maneuver before continuing on to the "then" bit on the card.

I tried googling 'then'. It means 'after that; next; afterwards'

So if 'Then' follows 'Execute a maneuver', It means 'After executing a maneuver.'

I think it is very hard to argue that another effect that happens 'After executing a maneuver.' must come before. They clearly have the same timing. And the rules are clear that you resolve effects in the order of your choosing, when they share the same timing.

If "after" doesn't mean immediately after the trigger what does it mean?

I feel like these arguments suggest that "after" means roughly after which is a slippery slope.

The answers perfectly show what I experienced with that question so far.

Half of the people agree that "then" is the same time as an "after" trigger, the other half agrees that an "after" trigger always interrupts and comes before the following "then".

Unless it interrupts, you'll mess up the timing windows

so you can't actually use kanan to remove the stress in the middle of the action.

unless you have a stress when you started doing the action (what's now possible with Ghost cards )

I tried googling 'then'. It means 'after that; next; afterwards'

Congratulation on being able to use a dictionary. Unfortunately, that definition does nothing to help clear anything up. No one was arguing that you get the stress at the same time or before executing the maneuver. If that does come up, it sounds like you've got that one covered.

So if 'Then' follows 'Execute a maneuver', It means 'After executing a maneuver.'

I think it is very hard to argue that another effect that happens 'After executing a maneuver.' must come before.

The argument is that you need to completely resolve executing the maneuver before moving on to the next bit. You haven't completed resolution until you've competed all of the related triggers. Kanan is triggered by executing a white maneuver and needs to be resolved before moving on to the next, separate thing that the card instructs you to do.

They clearly have the same timing. And the rules are clear that you resolve effects in the order of your choosing, when they share the same timing.

It's only clear that they have the same timing if you've already made your mind up that they do.

And the rules are clear that you resolve effects in the order of your choosing, when they share the same timing.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread dispute that. If it turns out that these effects do share a common timing I'm relatively confident that everyone can agree that the player that controls the effects gets to chose the order of resolution.