[Lots of random crap that doesn't bear re-reading]

I should point out here, this isn't me talking in defense of FFG, it's me taking offense to the assertion that they're somehow villainous over their choice of distribution of a little printed card.

At the end of the day, they provide products for sale. If you want to purchase those products you can; stock levels permitting, you can go and hand over your money and walk away with the items you wanted. If you want more Assault Proton Torpedoes, then you have a very clear avenue of acquiring them; by buying more MC30 expansions, where they're located. If you don't want to do that, because you don't feel that a single upgrade card justifies the cost of a whole new ship expansion, then you're in luck, because you don't have to buy it.

You're right about the fact that, if you want to equip multiple ships with that same upgrade, you'll have to buy extra expansions. But you could just not use that upgrade on multiple ships. Assault Concussion Missiles are a perfectly adequate Ordnance upgrade, in fact I personally prefer them to APTs, but that's beside the point - the "requirement" for more APTs is a manufactured requirement - in part manufactured by FFG, who require you to have one card per upgrade used, but mostly by yourself.

This is where the entitlement comes in - you're saying you want to use this specific list with these specific upgrades, and that you should just be allowed to do that without having to spend the extra money. And, whilst I think it would be great if you could get more of the popular upgrades much more cheaply, FFG doesn't owe you that in the slightest - they have a business model that they've created, and which I honestly don't think relies upon people buying expansions just for the cards as much as people are suggesting.

My best bet is that a very small proportion of tournament players will have bought multiples of an expensive ship expansion just to get a single card that's inside, only to leave the rest of the expansion in its box, never to be used again. I genuinely don't think that has happened often enough, through enough of the player base, for it to be a significant part of FFG's model - in fact, I feel confident that if FFG had included the X17 and the APT upgrade cards in every single expansion, their sales, and hence their revenue stream, would be more-or-less unchanged.

What would have been affected, though, would be their costs. Believe it or not, glossy printed cards do have a cost, and an expansion like the ISD already has lots and lots of upgrade cards in it, plenty of which are unique to that expansion. Throwing in more of a card that might be popular isn't going to make more people buy the ISD - they're buying it 'cause it's a frickin' ISD. But it will drive up the cost of a product where margin is the name of the game, and adding in two or three extra upgrade cards could easily affect their margin by five or six percent (I don't know, I haven't seen their CBOMs, let's not get into a guessing game over this).

Bear in mind, also, that multiple upgrade cards are not superfluous - there are plenty of "exhaust this card" rules on the upgrades themselves, and in X-Wing at least, there are damage effects that can cause you to discard upgrade cards of a certain type on a specific ship. It might be a small impact on the game, but the ultimate thing is that if you want to participate in an FFG tournament, then you have to follow the rules they've put in place. That includes turning up on time, using a fleet that doesn't exceed the points limit, not being a racist and plenty of others.

Now, if you don't like those rules, that's fine - I'm not saying you should, but this discussion wasn't about "should FFG change their tournament rules", it was about making FFG offer upgrade card packs - a suggestion I've already said might be fine in the future, but which I don't personally feel is necessary right now.

If you don't want to attend FFG Tournaments because of the rules they put in place, that's okay - don't attend! If you do want to to attend, but don't want to have to buy extra expansions just to get an extra copy of an upgrade card, that's okay too - just build a fleet that doesn't rely on multiple copies of that upgrade card! I don't care what you do, do what you want! But saying that these rules are "unfair", or accusing FFG of using villainous tactics to trick us all into spending hundreds of [local currency units] on toys we don't need - that's just faintly ridiculous.

As for the scenarios point - again, there are twelve different 'Objective' cards, one of which will be used in every game. These are basically scenarios - they change how you deploy, how you set up terrain, and the role each player takes. You say "All major events for other systems manage to incorporate lots of different scenarios just fine," - would you care to cite your sources? 40k tournaments certainly don't, they have fewer scenarios than Armada. X-Wing doesn't have any scenarios. Warmahordes has fewer, I believe (again, I need to check that, haven't got a rule book handy) - so which other systems and events are you referring to here? I'm not trying to be clever, I'm genuinely interested in knowing.

So what is your issue with my suggestion? I agree totally that the reasoning is such a tiny percentile of their customer base are affected it was not worth while to offer any alternative. I never said they should sell packs of cards, I never once said they owe anyone or myself anything, the things I stated were to emphasize my general happiness with FFG over the past decade or so, I spend on their stuff because I like it.

I have spent some time thinking about this, to finesse it out, as a viable solution that makes everyone happy.

They already have an account system set up, they already have a computer database that has every single stock items proof of purchase code in it, that is how they manage stock, and track sales, so all they need to do is set up a page that allows a customer to enter the unique data string on their proof of purchase, and it tracks the values spent by that customer.

So this was my idea. They sell duplicate cards at, lets say $/£2.00 each, for every $/£20.00 spent you are eligible for 1 card, mailing is simple, an envelope, lets say they charge a flat rate of $/£2.50, all of a sudden they are open to extra revenue, a little cost, printing off an extra sheet of cards would be cheap, so every card they are suddenly selling is making them $/£1.70 extra profit, and the best thing is, it is pure profit for them, because you already have to have spent to get access to it, they don't change their business model, and people stop copying, or doing without, they spend a extra amount, and get their cards, it is a win/win for them.

They already have distribution centers, they already have mail carriers, all they need is a few changes, and they open a new market up for themselves at little extra cost.

So this was my idea. They sell duplicate cards at, lets say $/£2.00 each, for every $/£20.00 spent you are eligible for 1 card, mailing is simple, an envelope, lets say they charge a flat rate of $/£2.50, all of a sudden they are open to extra revenue, a little cost, printing off an extra sheet of cards would be cheap, so every card they are suddenly selling is making them $/£1.70 extra profit, and the best thing is, it is pure profit for them, because you already have to have spent to get access to it, they don't change their business model, and people stop copying, or doing without, they spend a extra amount, and get their cards, it is a win/win for them.

Ok so let me get this straight, when I clock in my rewards (let's say 2ISDs, so I have 5 cards worth of rewards) I then have to pay an additional $€₱¢£¥2 for the card itself, plus an additional $€₱¢£¥2.5 for shipping?

That just doesn't sound much different than a card pack, except for a little bit of tweaking. A card pack still requires you to have purchased some models in the first place, because it's useless by itself.

Plus, of course, this still won't stop people from copying/proxying or from simply borrowing cards from other players.

It's not a terrible idea, but it's the same as a card pack, basically.

So this was my idea. They sell duplicate cards at, lets say $/£2.00 each, for every $/£20.00 spent you are eligible for 1 card, mailing is simple, an envelope, lets say they charge a flat rate of $/£2.50, all of a sudden they are open to extra revenue, a little cost, printing off an extra sheet of cards would be cheap, so every card they are suddenly selling is making them $/£1.70 extra profit, and the best thing is, it is pure profit for them, because you already have to have spent to get access to it, they don't change their business model, and people stop copying, or doing without, they spend a extra amount, and get their cards, it is a win/win for them.

Ok so let me get this straight, when I clock in my rewards (let's say 2ISDs, so I have 5 cards worth of rewards) I then have to pay an additional $€₱¢£¥2 for the card itself, plus an additional $€₱¢£¥2.5 for shipping?

That just doesn't sound much different than a card pack, except for a little bit of tweaking. A card pack still requires you to have purchased some models in the first place, because it's useless by itself.

Plus, of course, this still won't stop people from copying/proxying or from simply borrowing cards from other players.

It's not a terrible idea, but it's the same as a card pack, basically.

Well there is one difference. A card pack would require packaging and inventory space on its own. In fact Wyrd just cut production of their card packs because they were losing money on them due to those additional costs (they were mostly made as a cheap transition tool for 1st to 2nd edition anyways). However they have now contracted out with Wargame Vault to provide a print on demand service, but that is still in its infancy so there is not data on how good or bad that is doing (though there is practically no overhead).

I understand why they wouldn't do this, especially from their experience with X-Wing. The price difference between the two games makes this "buy models to get cards" strategy less viable, however.

In X-Wing, you might have to spend $15 to get a card you want. Maybe ~$25 to get one of the larger expansion packs which comes with 2 copies of a card (Most Wanted for BTL-A4). In contrast, if you want Flight Controllers in Armada, you're paying ~$35-40 for 1 card. Yes, you get more cards than just Flight Controllers, but most of those cards you already have from other kits and you only really care about 1 or 2 of them.

I'm curious to see how FFG gets around this limitation.

I can see your point it is a lot more money for armada, and you are forced to buy a ship for a fraction you don't play and need multiple copies of the same upgrade that can really get expensive.

I understand why they wouldn't do this, especially from their experience with X-Wing. The price difference between the two games makes this "buy models to get cards" strategy less viable, however.

In X-Wing, you might have to spend $15 to get a card you want. Maybe ~$25 to get one of the larger expansion packs which comes with 2 copies of a card (Most Wanted for BTL-A4). In contrast, if you want Flight Controllers in Armada, you're paying ~$35-40 for 1 card. Yes, you get more cards than just Flight Controllers, but most of those cards you already have from other kits and you only really care about 1 or 2 of them.

I'm curious to see how FFG gets around this limitation.

I can see your point it is a lot more money for armada, and you are forced to buy a ship for a fraction you don't play and need multiple copies of the same upgrade that can really get expensive.

You are not forced to buy them though. This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive. This is a far more balanced game. In my last tournament, I got 3rd place and 1st and 2nd did not have a single XI7 between them.

You are not forced to buy them though. This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive. This is a far more balanced game. In my last tournament, I got 3rd place and 1st and 2nd did not have a single XI7 between them.

How dare you take out fleets that challenge the common conception about automatic upgrades and place 3rd ?

I understand why they wouldn't do this, especially from their experience with X-Wing. The price difference between the two games makes this "buy models to get cards" strategy less viable, however.

In X-Wing, you might have to spend $15 to get a card you want. Maybe ~$25 to get one of the larger expansion packs which comes with 2 copies of a card (Most Wanted for BTL-A4). In contrast, if you want Flight Controllers in Armada, you're paying ~$35-40 for 1 card. Yes, you get more cards than just Flight Controllers, but most of those cards you already have from other kits and you only really care about 1 or 2 of them.

I'm curious to see how FFG gets around this limitation.

I can see your point it is a lot more money for armada, and you are forced to buy a ship for a fraction you don't play and need multiple copies of the same upgrade that can really get expensive.

You are not forced to buy them though. This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive. This is a far more balanced game. In my last tournament, I got 3rd place and 1st and 2nd did not have a single XI7 between them.

if you wanted to play a list in a tournament you need all of your upgrade in hand right?

and if a copy that upgrade card is only found in one ship and that ship is in a fraction you don't play how is that not being forced to buy?

if you wanted to play a list in a tournament you need all of your upgrade in hand right?

and if a copy that upgrade card is only found in one ship and that ship is in a fraction you don't play how is that not being forced to buy?

To identify the wording used - the word they're against here is forced.

Because no-one is forcing you to play that list.

Amending a list is an option you have.

That list is your choice, which is the inherent argument being used here, wether you agree with it or not - that's the wording used here.

I understand why they wouldn't do this, especially from their experience with X-Wing. The price difference between the two games makes this "buy models to get cards" strategy less viable, however.

In X-Wing, you might have to spend $15 to get a card you want. Maybe ~$25 to get one of the larger expansion packs which comes with 2 copies of a card (Most Wanted for BTL-A4). In contrast, if you want Flight Controllers in Armada, you're paying ~$35-40 for 1 card. Yes, you get more cards than just Flight Controllers, but most of those cards you already have from other kits and you only really care about 1 or 2 of them.

I'm curious to see how FFG gets around this limitation.

I can see your point it is a lot more money for armada, and you are forced to buy a ship for a fraction you don't play and need multiple copies of the same upgrade that can really get expensive.

You are not forced to buy them though. This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive. This is a far more balanced game. In my last tournament, I got 3rd place and 1st and 2nd did not have a single XI7 between them.

if you wanted to play a list in a tournament you need all of your upgrade in hand right?

and if a copy that upgrade card is only found in one ship and that ship is in a fraction you don't play how is that not being forced to buy?

You are not forced to buy them though. This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive. This is a far more balanced game. In my last tournament, I got 3rd place and 1st and 2nd did not have a single XI7 between them.

How dare you take out fleets that challenge the common conception about automatic upgrades and place 3rd ?

"This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive"

used you big boy words not abbreviations...

I'm not going to look up what they mean I don't have time for that

if you have a point type it out.

just because you got 3rd place mean nothing who did you play? was there list competitive to yours? did you not take upgrades? are they new, greens?

all these and more mean something.

"This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive"

used you big boy words not abbreviations...

I'm not going to look up what they mean I don't have time for that

if you have a point type it out.

just because you got 3rd place mean nothing who did you play? was there list competitive to yours? did you not take upgrades? are they new, greens?

all these and more mean something.

If you're going to chide someone on their use of language, you had best be sure that yours is spotless, first.

I understand why they wouldn't do this, especially from their experience with X-Wing. The price difference between the two games makes this "buy models to get cards" strategy less viable, however.

In X-Wing, you might have to spend $15 to get a card you want. Maybe ~$25 to get one of the larger expansion packs which comes with 2 copies of a card (Most Wanted for BTL-A4). In contrast, if you want Flight Controllers in Armada, you're paying ~$35-40 for 1 card. Yes, you get more cards than just Flight Controllers, but most of those cards you already have from other kits and you only really care about 1 or 2 of them.

I'm curious to see how FFG gets around this limitation.

I can see your point it is a lot more money for armada, and you are forced to buy a ship for a fraction you don't play and need multiple copies of the same upgrade that can really get expensive.

You are not forced to buy them though. This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive. This is a far more balanced game. In my last tournament, I got 3rd place and 1st and 2nd did not have a single XI7 between them.

if you wanted to play a list in a tournament you need all of your upgrade in hand right?

and if a copy that upgrade card is only found in one ship and that ship is in a fraction you don't play how is that not being forced to buy?

By forced I hope you mean want to

that BS no one is forced to play a list.

but if you wanted a upgrade card that only come in one ship yes you are forced to buy that ship....

"This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive"

used you big boy words not abbreviations...

I'm not going to look up what they mean I don't have time for that

if you have a point type it out.

just because you got 3rd place mean nothing who did you play? was there list competitive to yours? did you not take upgrades? are they new, greens?

all these and more mean something.

If you're going to chide someone on their use of language, you had best be sure that yours is spotless, f

I'm not chide anyone, used you words not abbreviations.

if you have time to type ever think else out then type it all don't be lazy.

if you wanted to play a list in a tournament you need all of your upgrade in hand right?

and if a copy that upgrade card is only found in one ship and that ship is in a fraction you don't play how is that not being forced to buy?

To identify the wording used - the word they're against here is forced.

Because no-one is forcing you to play that list.

Amending a list is an option you have.

That list is your choice, which is the inherent argument being used here, wether you agree with it or not - that's the wording used here.

adjective

1.

enforced or compulsory:

forced labor.

2.

strained, unnatural, or affected:

a forced smile.

3.

subjected to force.

4.

required by circumstances; emergency:

a forced landing of an airplane.

No, you are not Forced.

It is not compulsory that you use something in a list, in the way that, if you don't take it, you cannot play.

it is not enforced that you have it, in so much that there is no alternative to owning is.

Nor are you even forced to buy the ship, because as there was listed - there is options of beg/borrow/steal from other players albeit temporarily for the duration of a tournament.

WOW did you Wikipedia that?

this is my opinion I don't appreciate being attacked!

Worst. Thread. Ever.

My apologies. TLT means Twin Laser Turrets. They are currently one of the best cards in the meta for X-Wing I hear and people have been buying 5+ copies of the ship that they come in (The K-Wing I want to say. . .)

I understand why they wouldn't do this, especially from their experience with X-Wing. The price difference between the two games makes this "buy models to get cards" strategy less viable, however.

In X-Wing, you might have to spend $15 to get a card you want. Maybe ~$25 to get one of the larger expansion packs which comes with 2 copies of a card (Most Wanted for BTL-A4). In contrast, if you want Flight Controllers in Armada, you're paying ~$35-40 for 1 card. Yes, you get more cards than just Flight Controllers, but most of those cards you already have from other kits and you only really care about 1 or 2 of them.

I'm curious to see how FFG gets around this limitation.

I can see your point it is a lot more money for armada, and you are forced to buy a ship for a fraction you don't play and need multiple copies of the same upgrade that can really get expensive.

You are not forced to buy them though. This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive. This is a far more balanced game. In my last tournament, I got 3rd place and 1st and 2nd did not have a single XI7 between them.

if you wanted to play a list in a tournament you need all of your upgrade in hand right?
and if a copy that upgrade card is only found in one ship and that ship is in a fraction you don't play how is that not being forced to buy?

By forced I hope you mean want to

that BS no one is forced to play a list.

but if you wanted a upgrade card that only come in one ship yes you are forced to buy that ship....

Sure no one is forced to play a list. This is after all a luxury game to use on your free time outside of work

If you want that upgrade you want to buy that ship. That is how it works. Wants are peculiar like that.

I understand why they wouldn't do this, especially from their experience with X-Wing. The price difference between the two games makes this "buy models to get cards" strategy less viable, however.

In X-Wing, you might have to spend $15 to get a card you want. Maybe ~$25 to get one of the larger expansion packs which comes with 2 copies of a card (Most Wanted for BTL-A4). In contrast, if you want Flight Controllers in Armada, you're paying ~$35-40 for 1 card. Yes, you get more cards than just Flight Controllers, but most of those cards you already have from other kits and you only really care about 1 or 2 of them.

I'm curious to see how FFG gets around this limitation.

I can see your point it is a lot more money for armada, and you are forced to buy a ship for a fraction you don't play and need multiple copies of the same upgrade that can really get expensive.

this is my opinion.

WOW did you Wikipedia that?

Dictionary.com, actually.

But I can understand how you would want to respond with an attacking measure of sarcasm to it.

"This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive"

used you big boy words not abbreviations...

I'm not going to look up what they mean I don't have time for that

if you have a point type it out.

just because you got 3rd place mean nothing who did you play? was there list competitive to yours? did you not take upgrades? are they new, greens?

all these and more mean something.

Huh. . . My capabilities as a player are being brought into question. . . hmmmmm well then.

First off as my signature states, I run Armada Tactics News. A youtube channel that has battle reports so you can go check out those and see if I am a bad player or not. As for the only person I lost to in the tournament. It was a bad positioning from me at deployment with my flagship that caused it as well as not slowing down with my Avenger (had not done a wide flank with it before). Silly mistakes but they were made due to dealing with a situation I had not encountered before, lesson learned and filed away for later.

The person who got 2nd actually lost to me the round previously and then trounced his opponent to jump his score from 11 to 21 over my now 20 points. It was a good 10 person tournament btw.

So I see the word forced being thrown around here. Now I am an enlisted military veteran and we have a saying when we were unhappy about a situation. "No one put a gun to your head and forced you to join"

so with the word "forced" I have an image very near and dear to my heart.

You're right about the fact that, if you want to equip multiple ships with that same upgrade, you'll have to buy extra expansions... saying that these rules are "unfair", or accusing FFG of using villainous tactics to trick us all into spending hundreds of [local currency units] on toys we don't need - that's just faintly ridiculous.

Kid, the only one using the word 'villainous' is you.

It's unfriendly to the consumer, and I won't support it. Because you know, that's what informed consumers do. They refuse to support business practices they don't approve of.

If you've got a problem with that, feel free to not read my posts.

"This is not X-Wing where you HAVE to have TLT's to be competitive"

used you big boy words not abbreviations...

I'm not going to look up what they mean I don't have time for that

if you have a point type it out.

just because you got 3rd place mean nothing who did you play? was there list competitive to yours? did you not take upgrades? are they new, greens?

all these and more mean something.

Huh. . . My capabilities as a player are being brought into question. . . hmmmmm well then.

First off as my signature states, I run Armada Tactics News. A youtube channel that has battle reports so you can go check out those and see if I am a bad player or not. As for the only person I lost to in the tournament. It was a bad positioning from me at deployment with my flagship that caused it as well as not slowing down with my Avenger (had not done a wide flank with it before). Silly mistakes but they were made due to dealing with a situation I had not encountered before, lesson learned and filed away for later.

The person who got 2nd actually lost to me the round previously and then trounced his opponent to jump his score from 11 to 21 over my now 20 points. It was a good 10 person tournament btw.

"My capabilities as a player are being brought into question"

No I never said you where a bad player.

what I said was "who did you play? was there list competitive to yours? did you not take upgrades? are they new, greens?"

where they bad players or new ? if you had a heavy fighter list and they can't deal with it.

so saying a blind statement that you took 3rd place really doesn't mean much.