I get that it's frustrating that we have to spend more than we'd like for an upgrade or two, but I don't feel like FFG's system is egregious. I may have to buy an extra ship or two beyond what I otherwise would, but that also opens up other strategies and potentially fun things to try out.

If any other company was doing Armada, they would probably be putting out packs of random minis like monsterpocalypse or clix games, and have a garbage ruleset built around sustaining powercreep as long as possible until the competitive community dies. I'm grateful for what we've got with Armada.

You seem to be missing the point, having to buy things you do not need, or want, to get access to things you do actually need to play in a Tournament is a poor business model.

The only place this is an issue is playing in Tournaments, anyplace else you can photo copy cards, just have them wrote down on your fleet sheet, and as I already posted, allowing us to redeem codes from proof of purchase to get 1/2/3/4/5 card duplicates is not going to break FFGs bank, the production cost for an extra sheet of all one type of card printed off will be peanuts for them.

Huh. . . I could trade things but what would I trade for? Anything I want is limited, FC's, Worlds cards, and that is it. . . Hmmm

That's a very fair point, but you could assemble several 400-pt fleets for Armada and still have change left over for the cost of a modern Space Marine army. Not saying that's a valid excuse, but... y'know.

Although having said that, buy buying a single codex I have access to all the rules and upgrades my army can use. I don't need to buy two codexes if two of my squads want to use the same upgrade, unlike Armada where if I want two ships to use the same upgrade, I need to purchase that upgrade twice.Personally, I have no intention of ever playing in a sanctioned FFG event, precisely because of the way they require all official nonsense. I'm more than happy for my opponent to proxy cards, or even use a written/printed roster (which is a FAR superior way to play, IMO) and the requirement to have 7 copies of TRC if you want to have 7 ships using it is silly and I won't support that. Besides, 400 point games are too small!

This is a little too narrow a view. Technically every store kit tournament is an FFG sanctioned event. Every store level one I've ever been to the players were okay with proxying or loaning cards. I also have no doubt that if I wanted to play a 600 pt game if I could get some other players my LGS would gladly give me access to a kit (if I wanted it).

If wishes were fishes...

You seem to be missing the point, having to buy things you do not need, or want, to get access to things you do actually need to play in a Tournament is a poor business model.

Could you take me through your logic there, scout?

Think of this game like drugs. FFG is your dealer. They are interested in your cash a don they do that by creating an addiction. They want you to try and need everything, not just the ones you like at the moment. "Here, try this. If you love X than you'll love the high of Y". The purchases perpetuate themselves with the ships and the cards. FFG doesn't want to make it easy for you to fall in love with TRC and not try other cards or other expansions. You're either going to pay heavy for those 7 ships in your swarm or try and love some other combinations which lead to you spending more money, getting more addicted and spending more money to increase FFGs profits. What FFG cares about is that you like their game and need more, that's all.

Personally I've got two of everything. I'd like to try a swarm or have more of some cards. So I'll bide my time, watch for deals and try to make some trades or earn store credit. There will almost certainly never be upgrade card packs.

You seem to be missing the point, having to buy things you do not need, or want, to get access to things you do actually need to play in a Tournament is a poor business model.

Could you take me through your logic there, scout?

I dunno, I thought my statement was pretty self explanatory.

I enjoy buying a new ship, i get a new ship, all the cards, and everything else I need for playing the game, dials and such, and if I want another of them ships for my fleet, I enjoy buying another one, knowing I am buying a ship, and the things I need to use it in my Armada games.

What I do not enjoy is paying £30 for a single card, i have no use for the ship, no desire for the ship, no need for anything else in that £30 box, just a single card, and all because you cannot photo copy another card you already paid £30 for if you want to play in an "official" tournament.

So I suggested, seeing as in every single pack you buy for Armada, you get a punch out white tile, proof of purchase, with its own unique number on it, that FFG set up a system where by, and they can decide the brackets, for example, you redeem £120.00 worth of proof of purchase, and FFG say ok, that allows you to redeem for 3 cards of your choice, or 4 or 5...what ever they think is fair.

Because it costs them peanuts to print them, bulk ordering and all that, in fact I imagine the stumbling point would be mailing them, but hell, I'd pay the costs of mail £2-£4 just to get my <insert number> of reward duplicate cards, and not spend £15-40 on each one of them.

I mean seems fair no?

You seem to be missing the point, having to buy things you do not need, or want, to get access to things you do actually need to play in a Tournament is a poor business model.

You don't "actually" "need" to buy cross faction to play in a tournament. Maybe you are (very) confused about what those words mean, or tournament rules?

I use a few cross faction cards myself. Most of them are just extras borrowed from my buddies. I have similarly lent them cards.

If this wasn't an option I wouldn't be running APTs, and it would not be a cause for tears.

Could you take me through your logic there, scout?

I mean seems fair no?

He was asking about why it's a poor business practice (when in fact, it's a very profitable practice) not why it's fair or not.

Could you take me through your logic there, scout?

I mean seems fair no?

He was asking about why it's a poor business practice (when in fact, it's a very profitable practice) not why it's fair or not.

You know why CD sales went into a large decline right? because people were sick of paying a premium for a load of filler to get the few tracks they actually wanted.

I dislike being forced to buy something I do not need, dunno if that makes me weird or something, and how can it be very profitable for them, you don't need one of each card when playing friends/strangers, you do not even need them when playing in casual tournaments, by FFGs own say so. So surely the financial impact must be fairly minimal, because most people will not in fact spend £30 on a box with 1 single card they need for a single tournament, they will in fact change their fleet or borrow it from a friend, like you just said, so again, how is this making them money?

It is a simple fact people do not like spending money over the odds, and that making them, is a bad business practice, common sense states sooner or later the shine will fade, and that bad feeling you had, will be a major contributing factor for why you go else where, that is how it works in the real world.

Then don't buy stuff you don't need. Borrow. Go to eBay.

You know why CD sales went into a large decline right? because people were sick of paying a premium for a load of filler to get the few tracks they actually wanted.

I dislike being forced to buy something I do not need, dunno if that makes me weird or something, and how can it be very profitable for them, you don't need one of each card when playing friends/strangers, you do not even need them when playing in casual tournaments, by FFGs own say so. So surely the financial impact must be fairly minimal, because most people will not in fact spend £30 on a box with 1 single card they need for a single tournament, they will in fact change their fleet or borrow it from a friend, like you just said, so again, how is this making them money?

It is a simple fact people do not like spending money over the odds, and that making them, is a bad business practice, common sense states sooner or later the shine will fade, and that bad feeling you had, will be a major contributing factor for why you go else where, that is how it works in the real world.

I'd absolutely love to hear your proposal on how to torrent the upgrade cards I need so I can get around FFG's business model.

I didn't read the rest of your post because... Well because I don't think I'll need to, frankly.

Edit: ok, I read the rest of it. I was right, nothing in it with troubling myself over. I will correct your errors, but I'll let you respond so you can correct/justify your goofy CD sales comparison first.

I'd absolutely love to hear your proposal on how to torrent the upgrade cards I need so I can get around FFG's business model.

Have you heard of google image search?

Even if I wanted to attend official FFG events, I could print up my own cards, glue them to some card-stock and sleeve them, and no one would ever be the wiser.

The only thing stopping us from rampantly 'torrenting' FFGs cards is that fact that official cards are required in tournaments. People like to do things all official like, so the official way to play tends to become the norm. Just tonight I played against a guy using a typed out list. Much easier and quicker to set-up and play than using the cards.

This is a little too narrow a view. Technically every store kit tournament is an FFG sanctioned event.

It is, and I don't play in any of them, nor do I have any intention of doing so. Same for X Wing. I refuse to participate in a business model that is so unfriendly to the consumer. I mean, they even want you to take sanctioned FFG mats to play on (although a mat is not required).

And yes, I'm sure I could arrange a 600 point tournament as well, but the point (apart from not liking FFG's tournament rules) is that narrative and casual play is, IMO, a much more satisfying way to play the game. A tournament to me would be like spending a week eating at my favourite restaurant but only being able to order and entree. Sure it's nice, but it's also kind of frustrating.

And it's not like I'm singling FFG out either. When GW used to run tournaments I wouldn't go to any that required models to be genuine GW. The third party tournament scene allowed the use of any appropriate models and I much preferred to participate in that.

You know why CD sales went into a large decline right? because people were sick of paying a premium for a load of filler to get the few tracks they actually wanted......

I do not know where to start with this. I am tempted to record myself screaming "SPOTIFY" over and over again, convert it into a 4-minute track, upload it to Youtube and Apple Music / iTunes or whatever it's called, and then send you a link via any number of social media websites.

Instead, I'm going to do a Doctor Cox impression. Since this is text, just assume I look and sound like John C. McGinley...

Here's the thing, Sandra, the "company" has this whole weird thing goin' on there where they sell you little plastic toy spaceships, and by sell I really do mean that you hand over the money you get from moonlighting as a Doris Day impersonator and in return you get this just gosh-darn cutesy little box o' goodies. The "company" then takes that Doris Day money and uses it to pay for the costs of making more little plastic toy spaceships in cutesy boxes, and pays for things like employees, and offices, and advertising (that's the thing where they tell you whatcha need and you listen to 'em, 'cause your husband over there *nods towards Turk in the background* ain't around to do your thinkin' for ya). Then the other little toy spaceships that the "COMPANY" makes go out into stores and you see them and pay for them after a whole weekend of singin' 'Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps' and the whole cycle just keeps on goin'. And let me tell you there, if ya really are gonna quit buyin' yah toy spaceships because you resent the fact that you're "forced" to buy extras for little card rectangles that you really "need", I'm gonna have to go out, get you a big ol' Oxford English Dictionary and beat you upside the head with it until you come to understand what words like "forced" and "need" and "ass-whoopin'" really mean, 'cause you're the only girl this side of the Mississippi who won't immediately crack open your floral-brocade purse as soon as you get another release of new ships dangled in your pretty little face.

Okay, I went a bit "Gary Oldman in 'The Fifth Element'" at points, there, but hopefully you get my meaning.

This is a little too narrow a view. Technically every store kit tournament is an FFG sanctioned event.

It is, and I don't play in any of them, nor do I have any intention of doing so. Same for X Wing. I refuse to participate in a business model that is so unfriendly to the consumer. I mean, they even want you to take sanctioned FFG mats to play on (although a mat is not required).

And yes, I'm sure I could arrange a 600 point tournament as well, but the point (apart from not liking FFG's tournament rules) is that narrative and casual play is, IMO, a much more satisfying way to play the game. A tournament to me would be like spending a week eating at my favourite restaurant but only being able to order and entree. Sure it's nice, but it's also kind of frustrating.

And it's not like I'm singling FFG out either. When GW used to run tournaments I wouldn't go to any that required models to be genuine GW. The third party tournament scene allowed the use of any appropriate models and I much preferred to participate in that.

But you do take the time to complain about it here on these forums? Even though you don't want to play in no tournament, but keep it narrative and casual? Then sir, go right ahead and proxy those cards! Problem solved.

Then sir, go right ahead and proxy those cards! Problem solved.

Seems reasonable. That's even what FFG says to do.

Then sir, go right ahead and proxy those cards! Problem solved.

My good man, I will.

And at the same time I will continue to express how I find FFGs product bundling and tournament rules to be unfriendly.

And sir, if you don't like it feel free to not read those posts!

And at the same time I will continue to express how I find FFGs product bundling and tournament rules to be unfriendly.And sir, if you don't like it feel free to not read those posts!

What is it about the tournament rules that you find so distasteful?

And he is free to read your posts, right? And to complain about them if he wishes, just as you yourself are free to complain?

What is it about the tournament rules that you find so distasteful?

The requirement for multiple redundant upgrade cards.

The lack of scenarios.

The game sizes.

And he is free to read your posts, right? And to complain about them if he wishes, just as you yourself are free to complain?

Yes!

The requirement for multiple redundant upgrade cards.The lack of scenarios.The game sizes.

How would you address any of these problems? The tournament scene isn't really for big games, or homebrew scenarios. Both of those would likely exacerbate the already long tournament time.

The requirement for multiple redundant upgrade cards.

The lack of scenarios.

So, I have to pick up on these issues right here.

First off, there really isn't a requirement for anything, beyond the Core set and the expansions you have chosen to expand your fleet to 400 points. You get everything you need to play in the Core Set, you get everything you need for the expansions in the expansion boxes themselves. The only "requirement" you have for multiple redundant upgrade cards stems from your desire to have multiples of a specific card. In actual fact, you get LOADS of extras in each expansion, from tokens to upgrade cards and even little sealing plastic bags. You don't need multiple redundant cards any more than anyone needs a decorative plant in their home. So let's not get overly-dramatic, yeah? You could have as much fun at a Tournament, and as much chance of winning, just by buying the expansions to take you up to 400 points, along with the Core Set.

The Scenarios point - I mean, it's a tournament. It has to be balanced. Even outside of a tournament, making sure that multiple scenarios are fair and fun for both players takes a hell of a lot of play-testing. You've already got 12 different objectives to flavour your game - adding in many more scenarios and missions is one of those things that would legitimately delay future releases even further. So, I mean, I get that you wish there were more, but with all of their resources and the decades since it was first released, you still only get six different missions in the 40k rulebook, and even fewer (as I recall) in Warmahordes, so I think you're being a bit unfair there, buddy.

Wow, I think I hit a nerve. I started by buying 2 of the starter sets so I'm never buying the ships in that as expansions. I have spent $40-50 on E-bay buying cards I wanted. The most recent being another redundant shield. My m-80 and M-30 had them and my AF2 felt left out. I do buy ship expansions, but it's the ships I want knowing I can pick up cards online later. All I'm saying is I'd rather give that money to FFG then to a guy with a cottage industry canalizing stuff bought cheep to break up. If they don't want to do it, I'll keep buying cards on e-bay

Remember every card on eBay or whatever was originally attached to an expansion product sale. FFG do not loss money because of a second hand market in bits, if the total market demand for Xi7 is 10k cards they have sold 10k frigate expansion sets....Bob on eBay splitting a few packs has just helped them sell a few more expansions not reduced their profits.

If they offer out 5k of decks with Xi7 they have just reduced the demand for frigate expansion sets by 5k and the same for all lines with cards from that deck. It's a great way to des toy their business model and drive them out the market.

Our hobby can only support a business with a low volume/high profit per item (model) model. They are not selling baked beans to 100000000 people.

I'm sure a couple of emails will get them to change their entire business model.

Or not.

It is as it is, it ain't going to change. Whether that's a deal breaker for you is entirely your decision.

You know why CD sales went into a large decline right? because people were sick of paying a premium for a load of filler to get the few tracks they actually wanted.

I dislike being forced to buy something I do not need, dunno if that makes me weird or something, and how can it be very profitable for them, you don't need one of each card when playing friends/strangers, you do not even need them when playing in casual tournaments, by FFGs own say so. So surely the financial impact must be fairly minimal, because most people will not in fact spend £30 on a box with 1 single card they need for a single tournament, they will in fact change their fleet or borrow it from a friend, like you just said, so again, how is this making them money?

It is a simple fact people do not like spending money over the odds, and that making them, is a bad business practice, common sense states sooner or later the shine will fade, and that bad feeling you had, will be a major contributing factor for why you go else where, that is how it works in the real world.

CD sales in decline? Lol, have you heard of the internet? Downloading/streaming music reduced the sales of CDs.

I'd absolutely love to hear your proposal on how to torrent the upgrade cards I need so I can get around FFG's business model.

I didn't read the rest of your post because... Well because I don't think I'll need to, frankly.

Edit: ok, I read the rest of it. I was right, nothing in it with troubling myself over. I will correct your errors, but I'll let you respond so you can correct/justify your goofy CD sales comparison first.

You think this refutes my point? that was my point exactly, why do you think someone thought an alternative to CD's would be a real money maker? why do you think streaming sites like spofity happened and are so popular? why do you think you can buy virtually any song you want on Amazon as an mp3, without buying the whole CD, because....dun dun dun, there was a massive market demand for it.