Looks pretty good to me:

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http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=264

Nice card...Weird and intriguing.

Old Walder...Terrible Old Walder!!!

Hmmm.... the Valyrian Edition Walder Frey always seemed to embody the practical effects of his stronghold, The Twins, than his own particular personality.

The new Walder Frey, however, is just dripping with Nedly flavor. I think there should be some very happy fans after seeing this card. Plus, look at that cost to strength ratio! I know a few "pro" players that are really going to be loving that. The passive ability is looking pretty interesting. I'm not sure how often it's going to come back to bite you in the butt. Certainly, he'll have to go in a deck with high initiative plots, or lots of boosts.

I think the passive ability is going to end up being too complicated for most players to get to work with, especially in Melee.

You can't attack with a weenie and expect him to jump in for you if your opponent blocks because he may jump in for your opponent. And if you're not the First Player, you cannot chump-block any attack without him jumping in against you. And unless every challenge goes unopposed, he's hot going to be any good as a Dominance engine.

Yeah, he's going to be hard to work with. I think that more often than not, you're going to see him used as a "0-cost, first to die" kind of character.

Will have to be used carefully in defense for sure but will be great for powering "lose a challenge" mechanics, especially lose by 4's like ITE Areo Hotah.

This is the kind of card that still gets me fired up about the game.

Although i agree with kennon that the first version was pretty nedly - this one is equally so. His cost to STR ratio makes him a must for many competitive decks - especially in Joust, though Ktom is rigth that the drawvack will be tricky to play aorund. in Standard, you can always give him an icon using another card's effect and maybe commit him before he hurts you - but it will all be a fucntion of initiative.

I also agree that he becomes a much riskier propostion in Melee.

I like him... he's not auto-include because he can bite you in the a$$ if you're not carefull. It requires some thinking to use him. I think people will try him out... but his drawback will take him out of most decks.

I do like a situation in meele where you have 14 power and Prove One's Worth revelaed with walder frey out....

At first sight I'm not really a fan.

Adds even more chaos to multiplayer games.

At first i was intrigued, then i realized the effect was a passive and i went to meh. The viper or even the stark guy without deadly who does the same thing is much better.

I actually think he is better in Joust because you have a little more control over him (being last in a 4 player table with him on the board is just useless). I might play around with him a bit, but I'm not really sure I will change my mind much. He might affect some choices, but he can be manipulated so much by other people that it isn't going to have a big impact on the table.

Maybe if there was a way to stand him (i'm looking LCG format here) I would be more interested as then he could really become an issue on the table.

Stag, giving him and icon and making sure you go first is almost a watse of his 0 cost becuase then you are spending all these other resources on making him viable for one challenge.

bloodycelt said:

That's not going to work the way you think it will. The rules say:

"Renown: If you win a challenge (either as attacker or defender), each of your participating characters with the 'Renown' keyword claims 1 power after the challenge resolves."

So Renown isn't awarded to all characters with the keyword participating on the winning side, it is awarded to all participating characters with the keyword CONTROLLED by the winner of the challenge. So your scenario is only going to work if you win the challenge anyway, in which case you probably didn't need the extra jumping unique.

Lars said:

Couldn't you just use the 1 gold cost martell attachment that gives him all the icons? And if you declare him as a defender or attacker, wouldn't that block his passive ability from going off, since he's bowed already? Admitedly its just for martells, but not bad, a 1 cost 4str deadly tricon...

Otherwise I love this guy. He's one of those cards that make people think about their deck, strategy and the finer aspects of the game, which is always a good thing... yeah he might backstab you, but that's the excitement of running a card that is free. I think if the design continues with this kind of new ideas and twists, that the game is going to be a lot better for it (as long as the "regular" staples are maintained).

Hot, very very hot. One of the most nedly cards I've seen in a long time. Not an auto include, but **** close, 0 cost is very tempting, but I'm not one to be tempted by the Late Lord Frey. I'd always want to have some sort of insurance with this guy on the table. Seems amazing on the iniative. Also going to be a very fun multiplayer card.

ktom said:

.... Now I know why no one plays Martel anymore

"Your opponent must declare at least 1 defending
character in order to be considered defending
against a challenge." -Agot Core Rules

Using the above logic... I can infer that means you can't trigger "lose as defender" effects if you don't declare defenders?

bloodycelt said:

No, because when the attacking player decides to send his characters against you, you become the defending player or defending opponent (whatever you want to call it). The bit about "to be considered defending against the challenge" doesn't change the fact that you are the defending player or that you lose a challenge as the defender if you don't declare any characters in said defense. It's more about having a challenge STR on the defending side than it is about the player's status.

Be direct in your counter-examples. If you're trying to say that the reading of "YOUR participating characters" in the definition of Renown really applies to all characters on the winning side regardless of who controls them, then give me any example in the game where the phrase "YOUR characters" refers to a character under someone else's control.

Greyjoy Chris said:

RE : martell card, sorry when i talk strategy about LCG cards i tend to focus on the LCG format (i just don't want to spend my time figuring out how to make him work for a year), thought i said that in my post. But yeah its on okay idea. You are still going to run into the problem of do i go first, what happens if My opponet decides to win it (now they have won by four, or at least have a 4 str shift).

I don't think he adds all that much strategy to a deck. If i am building a dekc that wants to go first all the time I might stick him in there, but i would not use him in melee (unless i couldn't find other claim soak) and until some awesome combo shows up i don't see my self using him in joust. Yes he is an interesting mechanic, might throw him in a few casual decks, but he only affects the first challenge initiated, and as long as i have some kind of claim soak with an icon i'm probably okay. Best use of him i see is to play your own milk of the poppy and lordship on him. 4 str power challenge or 8 str in dom...dunno if i'd use my 2 gold and 3 cards from my deck for that....but i guess some people might have better ideas.

I mean how many people use the 5KE Viper? and you can control when you use him. I remember i got burned because i wasn;t paying attention to that viper i na limited game. It never happened again.

The 5KE Viper is great! We've always found him useful here in Joust and fantastic in multiplayer. He really screws with people in that format.

If he had No Atachment keyword I would say he would be OK, but this way you can give him easily some icons and make him a beast for low price.

Btw how can an old man like him be deadly

Rozy said:

How can an old man like him have a strength of 4 ? Compare it to the strength of Ser Gregor Clegane.

His ability is somehow nedly, however it would be more nedly on a card with the name "*Walder Frey´s host". I would prefer to see a Walder Frey with the text search your deck, discard pile (whole collection of cards ;-) ) for a Frey charachter and put it into hand - having a lot of offsprings seems to be his greatest personal strengths.

I liked the VE version a lot, but i don´t think this version will see a lot of play outside of special builds.

Lars said:

Maybe not him alone, but if the future releases have more interesting card ideas like him, I think it will be better for the game overall. He himself makes people think before putting him in a deck, and some crazy person might just build a deck with him as a key player. I think my main point is more that he stimulates thoughts and ideas on the cards, making people try to find ways to use him. and I believe that is a good thing to do for a card game, otherwise it grows stale.

In response to the post about Walder's strength, keep in mind that strength does not refer only to physical strength, see Doran Martell from Hoth. I think, keeping in mind the power that Walder holds (the power of the Twins, etc.), that strength 4 is appropriate. And I absolutely love this card.

jmccarthy said:

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry. Empire Strikes Back.

Kennon said:

"...And I thought these things.... smelled bad..... on the outside...."

I love Nedly cards. The make the game fun. Ol' Walder may not make the cut in competitive decks, but he seems like a fun card to put out on the table. He might even see some competitive play with some Overzealous Scouts.

~The chances are 3720 to 1 that Ser Walder Frey will suvive in the cold enviroment of non- casual gaming. ;-)

About the strength thing. The strength ratio "usually" applies to the physical strength of the charachters, there are of course some exceptions. Usually "main charachters" will have a strength of 3 to indicate the impact they have in Westeros, in some cases they even get a higher strength, just like Tywinn (5), Daeny (4), Littlefinger (3+x) ....

Personally i think the old Doran Martell from Crown of suns was more flavourful and better to use, even if he only had a strength of zero, his gametext was great and it really felt like Doran Martell was pulling the strings in the background.

ktom said:

Ktom, I was trying to clarify something... not to counter example, more like hoping that I was wrong on the defender thing. (Which I was, thankfully).

The actual rules for renown is sort of a surprise for me, so I just needed some re assurance that I don't have everything else wrong.