I mostly posted this because I want to see the rules changed so they clearly and explicitly forbid this "grey area" of collusion. Other competitive games I've worked for has a laser beam aimed at this behavior and FFG has settled for a one sentence umbrella over the whole thing, they need to make that part of the rules clearer and more explicit.

I mostly posted this because I want to see the rules changed so they clearly and explicitly forbid this "grey area" of collusion. Other competitive games I've worked for has a laser beam aimed at this behavior and FFG has settled for a one sentence umbrella over the whole thing, they need to make that part of the rules clearer and more explicit.

Right. So send it to FFG Organized Play please. It's quite possible they won't see this thread.

You can manipulate the MOV though. If you conceede, opponent gets 200-0 afaik. Therefore you might push through to eliminations opponents that wouldn't have got there with the non-perfect MOV had you played to the end.

If you concede at the start of a match there would be a 200-0 MoV comparison. If the concession occurred near the end of a match the MoV scores could easily be a LOT closer. Concession just destroys your ships, it does nothing to reduce the number of points you've already scored. If two AP are all that are left facing off when on side concedes then the final MoV will be 112-88 or something very close to that.

Draws are the bane of any tournament system. There should always be rules to determine a true winner in the result of a tie to prevent these sort of "we both lost" situations.

Also, initiative seems like a questionable tiebreaker in general for whatever that's worth.

Draws may seem like a bane in a tournament system but I really believe they are undervalued. I don't like the "we both lost" situation but that is simply because so many people believe there MUST be a winner who gets all the glory why the other is looked at as lower than dirt. I say draws/ties should be more common and should NOT be negated to "both lose" status, which is almost the case when they each get 1/5 of a win's points, but rather should be something closer to a neutral result which it actually was.

I believe that if draws were scored 2/2 and modified wins scored 3/1 things would become more interesting even if they also happen to become more complicated. I believe the added complexity and likely wider range of scores would make true efforts at collusion more difficult if trying to squeak into an elimination play off. A wider range of scoring would also make attempts at collusion more dangerous for anyone who is not already "in" because you could never be sure what else is going to happen. I don't believe that offering concession should ever really be seen as collusion. I also support a "soft concession" that can freeze a game's state while offering on player a win should it be taken; this could be refused but I see it as a way to break a stalemate without totally destroying one sides MoV.

When it comes to flipping a coin to pick a winner I do not believe it should be done although I can certainly see why one would want to do it. Before MoV became the tie breaker conceding if you are are going to lose a modified win was seen as a wise move as it boosted your opponent's score which in turn strengthened your SoS; gaming the system could happen even then. As it stands now a Draw is as bad as a loss because you never really have enough games to make up the tournament points lost; were it 2 points it still wouldn't match a win but at least the points would be significant enough to keep things interesting.

I am going to answer this accusation in the only way I can. I was wrong and the rules prove it. unfortunately I used bad judgment in my decision to decide a game with a coin flip. That by definition is collusion. I have no defense for this as I should have known better and actually do know better than to allow this. With my experience as a TO I have no right to think that anything I do is above any other person or player associated with this awesome game. If FFG decides to censure me in any way I will fully accept their decision no matter what it is, and I will in no way dispute it. I am glad someone from the community brought this topic up as it has taught me a lesson in my conduct while playing this great game. One other thing to point out is that whether I did this in 2014 or yesterday, my conduct was deplorable. I want to apologize for my actions to the community that I love, to Organized play for putting my own concerns above the game on that day, and my friends who trust in my judgments when making rulings on this game. I accept FULL responsibility for my actions.

To be fair, I think the matter is a bit different in other games.

I mostly posted this because I want to see the rules changed so they clearly and explicitly forbid this "grey area" of collusion. Other competitive games I've worked for has a laser beam aimed at this behavior and FFG has settled for a one sentence umbrella over the whole thing, they need to make that part of the rules clearer and more explicit.

Right. So send it to FFG Organized Play please. It's quite possible they won't see this thread.

Interestingly the rules say that you have to have attended the event to report someone. I guess they would make an exception in this case as the player in question admitted it on a popular X-Wing podcast, but it makes me wonder why the rule exists in the first place. Maybe to stop people being accused based on rumor?

I'm actually not sure what reporting it would actually accomplish either. It's not like there needs to be a FAQ for this, it's fairly clear already. Maybe it'll get them to change their policy on conceding, but I very much doubt that.

The more I think about it, the more I'm unsure that this player needs to be punished, not because he didn't do anything wrong but because I'm not sure it's fair to make an example of this guy when the other players that he colluded with him "get away with it" while he takes the fall. Even if they didn't benefit from the rules infraction. Hmm... I'm not sure where I stand on this... Part of me wants to say that if he made the cut and won prizes then they should throw the book at him, but honestly where he placed in the event doesn't actually matter.

I'd bet money that FFG would do nothing about it even if report it. They may use it as an example of something they'd action on at another time. But FFG would be unlikely to level anything but a wag of the finger for something that happened in 2014.

I mostly posted this because I want to see the rules changed so they clearly and explicitly forbid this "grey area" of collusion. Other competitive games I've worked for has a laser beam aimed at this behavior and FFG has settled for a one sentence umbrella over the whole thing, they need to make that part of the rules clearer and more explicit.

Right. So send it to FFG Organized Play please. It's quite possible they won't see this thread.

Interestingly the rules say that you have to have attended the event to report someone. I guess they would make an exception in this case as the player in question admitted it on a popular X-Wing podcast, but it makes me wonder why the rule exists in the first place. Maybe to stop people being accused based on rumor?

I'm actually not sure what reporting it would actually accomplish either. It's not like there needs to be a FAQ for this, it's fairly clear already. Maybe it'll get them to change their policy on conceding, but I very much doubt that.

The more I think about it, the more I'm unsure that this player needs to be punished, not because he didn't do anything wrong but because I'm not sure it's fair to make an example of this guy when the other players that he colluded with him "get away with it" while he takes the fall. Even if they didn't benefit from the rules infraction. Hmm... I'm not sure where I stand on this... Part of me wants to say that if he made the cut and won prizes then they should throw the book at him, but honestly where he placed in the event doesn't actually matter.

It needs to be reported so they are aware of it and can adjust rules, documents, etc. accordingly to make things clearer. If they don't know they cannot do anything to help address and prevent it. I think they need to expand the Floor Rules to all games. I never once said report it to burn him and all his prizes, I want it reported to be used as information by OP.

For the record I did not make the cut in that tournament and it does not excuse me from my actions.

I dont think this post is to get an actual action against that actual moment and those actual playes, we should forget that moment and just name Player A, Player B tossing a coin.

The problem as i also understand is that grey area in the rules enforcement. People dont want WAAC players, but once you are playing competitive events we can see that we need some rule enforcements.

I listened the podcast, i also felt annoyed by it and i understand MajorJuggler completely, since i have only played 3 tournaments and that already happened to me. It is clear that rules have to be changed, and by telling your feelings on the point a draw gives you you also address the problem MajorJuggler is explaining, which is the scoring system is not good enough. It actually encourage people to cheat, we dont want a draw because is bad for both so we better flip a coin.

I also feel that a concesion with mov determining the tie breaker is a huge factor. With SOS it doesnt matter how you beat me with MOV it actually does, is so much important that big ships gotta score half his MOV.

I come from a mtg background, i used to play tons of competitive gaming and i get the enjoyment people get with this game but it wont be worst doing things better. People saying the mentality of a draw is bad for both isn't right because usually what happens with a draw is that the point is not important, top X cuts are made based on number of players so usually or there are tons of draws or is the same as a loss so you get the feeling that you better flip a coin that get a loss for both players.

The other reason I posted this was as a PSA for players and TOs that this isn't okay.

To clarify, this is because once you have destroyed all of your opponent's shops, or reached the end of the round after time has been called, or conceded, the match has officially ended and the results are locked in. Since you are only allowed to concede during the match, you are not allowed to concede after the match has ended from either of the first two conditions.

By the tournament rules as written, however, you could concede during the modify dice step of the final possible roll, when the result is obvious, because the match is not yet over at that point.

This thread is largely done - the error has been called out, and the culprit (such as they are) admitting to it in full. It's up to FFG to decide what, if anything, happens next.

... In my opinion, probably nothing beyond a clarification. This doesn't sound like someone boasting of cheating; indeed, one imagines if it was deliberately subverting the rules it would never be so publicly admitted at all. What FFG's take on it will be, of course, is up to them.

Still gotta feel for the poor sod in the middle of it with the Sword of Damocles hanging overhead, though.

By the tournament rules as written, however, you could concede during the modify dice step of the final possible roll, when the result is obvious, because the match is not yet over at that point.

That is still a voluntary concession. Also, the player who is about to lose will most likely see it to the end. One never knows what's gonna happen when the dice rolls and you might as well go through with it at that point. If someone intends to manipulate the end result, they wouldn't bother with waiting until the very last dice roll.

On another note, Sean Dorcy made an apology. He's not infallible (his mistake showed that) but he is also not the type of person who regularly cheats on purpose. So how about we show our good spirit as a community and accept the guy's apology with forgiveness? This does not mean he should just be let off the hook. That is not my point. I do believe actions have consequences. However, it is not for me to decide what they will be.

My point is, we are a community with a good attitude. Let's put our pitchforks and torches down, show Sean we won't deny him our friendship because of his mistake, and work towards clearing this issue in a manner that does not antagonize him.

(However, try not to bring up something that has already been brought up. Doing so places conversations in infinite, unproductive loops)

I agree that the scores of the game are interpreted and the end result is awarded from the TO. I thought the tie-breaker for Swiss rounds was MOV to move on to the cut...

I am going to answer this accusation in the only way I can. I was wrong and the rules prove it. unfortunately I used bad judgment in my decision to decide a game with a coin flip. That by definition is collusion. I have no defense for this as I should have known better and actually do know better than to allow this. With my experience as a TO I have no right to think that anything I do is above any other person or player associated with this awesome game. If FFG decides to censure me in any way I will fully accept their decision no matter what it is, and I will in no way dispute it. I am glad someone from the community brought this topic up as it has taught me a lesson in my conduct while playing this great game. One other thing to point out is that whether I did this in 2014 or yesterday, my conduct was deplorable. I want to apologize for my actions to the community that I love, to Organized play for putting my own concerns above the game on that day, and my friends who trust in my judgments when making rulings on this game. I accept FULL responsibility for my actions.

See?

I figured this fella wasn't actively trying to cheat and here he is being a stand-up gent. I say we all give him a pat on the back for being a good sport about it.

Dirty doggin with a twist. This was covered recently in another thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/199461-new-to-game-question/

The main piece I got from that episode of NOVA Squadron Radio was that the draw/modified win system needs to be tweaked or eliminated. If you get rid of modified win you could bump up the draw points to 2 or 3.

The main piece I got from that episode of NOVA Squadron Radio was that the draw/modified win system needs to be tweaked or eliminated. If you get rid of modified win you could bump up the draw points to 2 or 3.

Yeah I have to say the part of the podcast that I disagreed with the most was MajorJuggler's (I think it was him) idea to base the winner of the game on how damaged the ships were at the end so that you could quantify the final game state. This doesn't work in my opinion once you factor in regen ships, it just gives them yet another far too strong ability.

What's to stop you for example just fielding fast regen ships, hitting a couple of your opponent's ships, and then just running and recovering shields for the rest of the match so that you can get easy wins?

I agree that the scores of the game are interpreted and the end result is awarded from the TO. I thought the tie-breaker for Swiss rounds was MOV to move on to the cut...

If you're referring to the scenario in the original post, the tie in question isn't the one that involves MoV. If at the end of a match, both players have destroyed an exactly equal number of each other's ships, the game results in a tie; both players get 1 Tournament point and +100 MoV points (because player 1's points destroyed - player 2's points destroyed is 0). A full win is 5 tournament points, and a modified win is 3, and a loss is 0. At the end of swiss, you compare Tournament points, and whoever has the most determines the people making the cut. In the event of a Tournament point tie, that's where you compare MoV. Often, in a tournament with the proper number of rounds, a Tie may as well be a Loss as far as Tournament points are concerned; the top cut will usually be 1 undefeated player, and however many players only lost a single round to fill out the rest of the bracket. Assuming a 5 round event, unless you tied at the top table in the last round, resulting in two 4-0-1 players, being 3-1-1 pretty much ensures you're out of contention unless there were a ton of modified wins, or the elimination cut is way bigger than it should be. That's all oversimplified a bit as there are all sorts of weird possible scenarios. For example, a player that goes 3-1-1, where all three wins are Full wins, will have 16 Tournament points, 1 more than another player who goes 5-0 but all of their wins are modified. Anyway...

The problem with the scenario in the OP is this: the real outcome of that match has both players receiving 1 Tournament point and 100 MoV points, which more than likely puts them both out of the running for the cut. Assuming they were both in contention if they'd won, that means someone else who had a lower chance before that round would be making it instead of them. Instead of reporting the correct result, they opted to flip a coin to grant one of them 5 Tournament Points and the other 0, so that one could advance to the cut rather than both being knocked out, and thus bumping out someone else who was reporting legitimate results.

I am going to make one final statement on this topic. I have had a conversation with a member of the FFG OP team which was off the record. What I have decided to do personally is to put forth a self imposed ban through this store championship season and through the Regional season. I will not play in any sanctioned FFG X-Wing events again until Worlds. I view this as a fair and equitable response to my actions in 2014. I believe the game stands above one individual and this cannot be compromised. I will still play in smaller store tournaments and local leagues, but I will stay away from official tournaments. I know not all of you know me or about me, but I will hold to my word throughout this self imposed Ban.

Sincerely,

Sean Dorcy

Certainly not what anyone intended here Sean but I commend you for your stance.

Cue applause.

I am going to make one final statement on this topic. I have had a conversation with a member of the FFG OP team which was off the record. What I have decided to do personally is to put forth a self imposed ban through this store championship season and through the Regional season. I will not play in any sanctioned FFG X-Wing events again until Worlds. I view this as a fair and equitable response to my actions in 2014. I believe the game stands above one individual and this cannot be compromised. I will still play in smaller store tournaments and local leagues, but I will stay away from official tournaments. I know not all of you know me or about me, but I will hold to my word throughout this self imposed Ban.

Sincerely,

Sean Dorcy

I won't like the post Sean as I don't like the fact that you feel you have to be punished before the mob for what I believe (rightly or wrongly) was an honest, non malicious mistake brought forth from a Fly Casual attitude that the X-Wing community is known for.

I agree, you were in the wrong. End of sentence.

I understand your choice and respect you for it, but I am not happy that you feel the need to impose this punishment upon yourself for the good image of the game, the NOVA podcast and yourself.

Kris

Well said Kris.

I am going to make one final statement on this topic. I have had a conversation with a member of the FFG OP team which was off the record. What I have decided to do personally is to put forth a self imposed ban through this store championship season and through the Regional season. I will not play in any sanctioned FFG X-Wing events again until Worlds. I view this as a fair and equitable response to my actions in 2014. I believe the game stands above one individual and this cannot be compromised. I will still play in smaller store tournaments and local leagues, but I will stay away from official tournaments. I know not all of you know me or about me, but I will hold to my word throughout this self imposed Ban.

Sincerely,

Sean Dorcy

I cannot support your decision. You made a mistake, it was very clear that your actions where not mean and this should not be a thread to punish you for something you did 2 years ago. I encourage you to keep playing and forget it, everybody can make a mistake.

The main piece I got from that episode of NOVA Squadron Radio was that the draw/modified win system needs to be tweaked or eliminated. If you get rid of modified win you could bump up the draw points to 2 or 3.

Considering how things go I really don't think a Modified Win should be worth so much more than a Draw. By that same token why should barely being outscored be just as bad as being completely eliminated? A full win awards 5 total points, a modified win only awards 3 total points and a draw just 2 total points; keep the full win advantage at 5 points but move Modified Wins and Draws up to 4 points total.