For a certain time now, I think this game has begun to enter in a race for firepower :
- Y-wing, who IMO was a nice control ship, has now the ability to do a lot of direct damage with TLT
- Advanced has been "fixed" with more firepower, and is no longer a "2 red dice" ship
- Inquisitor TIE, with the good pilot (wich will surely be the one we'll see 99% of the time) has in fact 3 red dice
- an old corellian transport has 4 (!) red dice, ans, even better, it's shuttle, who is just a personnal transport, has the same firepower as a later war fighter, the x-wing
- Defender has been added an extra attack per round

So, at the light of this, my impression is that 3 attack dice is now the norm for a ship in this game, and that FFG has now no other choice than follow this new standart, and "fix" ship after ship to stick with it.
And the result of this is a growing firepower race.

This makes me sad, since I feel that 2 attack dice ships, who should be the standard, are now reduced to be blockers of missile carriers. 3 attack dice-ships, who are supposed to be powerful (x-wing ! native Falcon quad lasers ! ) are now just the normal deal.
And we arrived at the point where "fixing" a ship by adding more HP (T65 and its new über-shield droid) doesn't even work, for what I read here.

What do you think guys?

The Ghost is not old, it is a state of the art ship (Source: "A New Dawn") - 4 Attack dice represent that pretty well in my opinion. Same thing goes for its Attack Shuttle.

Yes, two attack dice ships have, due to the insane mitigation some ships (that have also risen to the top of the meta) posess, fallen out of favour. Right now we have two 'fixes' for that: Crackshot and Juke. Crackshot is spammable and really evil when run in that way, it pretty much is 1 point of guaranteed damage at some point. Multiply that by 6 and you have quite some pain. Juke is harder to enable, but it is also infinitly reusable. Those are of course Elite upgrades, so they only help very specific ships: The TIE Fighter, TIE/fo Fighter, A-Wing and coming soon the TIE Adv. Prototype (and maybe some I forgot). Other ships still have their use as blockers, as the Worlds final demonstrated us pretty clearly: Both lists included one plain 2 attack dice ship that was there to disrupt and harras the enemy while not really being a focus target.

You are right, there is an issue with increasing firepower, but it is not because more ships with higher attack values get released. The problem are cards like C3-PO, Palpatine, Autothrusters, PTL, Stealth Device, R2-D2, R5-P9 etc. because they enable high damage mitigation. I was at a 40 player store championship last Saturday and Brobots were very popular - a lot of people mentioned how frustrated they were with just how hard it is to get damage through to them.

All of those ships needed those adjustments...that's why hardly anyone was playing them. The Inquisitor has a good ability but no ship is good enough that it is seen "99%" of the time.

Everyone needs to calm their **** about fixing this or broken that. FFG has never even hinted of ignoring ships left behind or allowing a ship to dominate the meta. Furthermore, FFG has never taken a fix idea from these forums. Let FFG do what FFG has been doing. Which is producing a great game.

I think the red dice creep has come about due to the effectiveness of the green dice buffs (Fat PWT or PLT Brobot/3 green dice ace)

You could throw 2 red dice at PLT Brobots all day and not even scratch them.

Edit: That said, they haven't lost control of anything, just minor adjustments over several years

All of those ships needed those adjustments...that's why hardly anyone was playing them. The Inquisitor has a good ability but no ship is good enough that it is seen "99%" of the time.

Everyone needs to calm their **** about fixing this or broken that. FFG has never even hinted of ignoring ships left behind or allowing a ship to dominate the meta. Furthermore, FFG has never taken a fix idea from these forums. Let FFG do what FFG has been doing. Which is producing a great game.

Actually it is likely they have taken general consensus from forums and tweaked game. Alex Davie has stated on several interviews they are aware of this or that issue that has been brought up online etc. (Phantom and Fat Han nerfs are pretty much fan driven) They have never stated that due to excessive online complaining they changed this or that either though. There is some interaction between fans on forums and the game designers. This does have an influence but how much no one really knows.

The game, quite sensibly, started off quite 'tame' with X-Wings at 21 points, to stop the 'dreaded 5x Rookies list...' and TIE Fighters powerful but only in a swarm.

Games such as this always suffer from complexity creep as more and more units/cards are released. The question is though:

Does that inevitable complexity creep, represent power creep too?

Obviously there's an argument for it either way, but it's equally valid to say that the current state of the game is merely 'how it was always meant to be, but we've just taken a while to get there'.

I think with most ships, they release them knowing that their power level isn't quite up to where it 'could' be. I think maybe in the early days, fixes were seen as merely that, something needed to top up ships that ended up being worse than they wanted them to be. But I wonder if, the success of Rebel/Imperial Aces made them realise that they could x2 out of expansions by deliberately engineering in some weaknesses to be addressed at a later date, with a fix pack.

Having said that - despite more obvious fix packs like Rebel and Imperial Aces, and now Imperial Veterans - a lot of the other fixes have been included in packs with other value, like Most Wanted etc.

There has been slight power creep in the form of red dice in this game but it's extremely mild. The fact that TIE swarms from wave 1 are still good goes to show how well balanced the game still is.

All of those ships needed those adjustments...that's why hardly anyone was playing them. The Inquisitor has a good ability but no ship is good enough that it is seen "99%" of the time.

Everyone needs to calm their **** about fixing this or broken that. FFG has never even hinted of ignoring ships left behind or allowing a ship to dominate the meta. Furthermore, FFG has never taken a fix idea from these forums. Let FFG do what FFG has been doing. Which is producing a great game.

Actually it is likely they have taken general consensus from forums and tweaked game. Alex Davie has stated on several interviews they are aware of this or that issue that has been brought up online etc. (Phantom and Fat Han nerfs are pretty much fan driven) They have never stated that due to excessive online complaining they changed this or that either though. There is some interaction between fans on forums and the game designers. This does have an influence but how much no one really knows.

I agree 100%. I'm just venting because I've seen too many "allow me to fix it for FFG" threads. My point is this, the ships who needed a leg up have received it or theirs is in development now. (T-65) The ships that were over powered have been reeled back.

Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

Rebels in a nutshell

Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

Rebels in a nutshell

You mean the writers of Rebels see themselves as freighters/shuttles?

You could throw 2 red dice at PLT Brobots all day and not even scratch them.

Not entirely true. One other thing which has seen a resurgence recently is ways to mess with your opponent's defences - between Deathrain with All The Mines^TM, Wampa's I-rolled-a-[kaboom]-you-can-just-take-a-point-of-damage-and-like-it, and several pilot abilities and elite pilot talents which mess with defence dice (crack shot, juke, Omega Leader), tractor beams, and intimidation, it can be a lot easier to get damage through to 'untouchable' ships than you expect.

Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

Rebels in a nutshell

You mean the writers of Rebels see themselves as freighters/shuttles?

No, they see their ships as nutshells. I'm not sure what that says about them. Maybe Zeb's resemblance to an angry lavender-coloured squirrel isn't entirely coincidental.

You could throw 2 red dice at PLT Brobots all day and not even scratch them.

Not entirely true. One other thing which has seen a resurgence recently is ways to mess with your opponent's defences - between Deathrain with All The Mines^TM, Wampa's I-rolled-a-[kaboom]-you-can-just-take-a-point-of-damage-and-like-it, and several pilot abilities and elite pilot talents which mess with defence dice (crack shot, juke, Omega Leader), tractor beams, and intimidation, it can be a lot easier to get damage through to 'untouchable' ships than you expect.

Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

Rebels in a nutshell

You mean the writers of Rebels see themselves as freighters/shuttles?

No, they see their ships as nutshells. I'm not sure what that says about them. Maybe Zeb's resemblance to an angry lavender-coloured squirrel isn't entirely coincidental.

Honestly, neither Wampa or Omega are going to seriously do it that well... For their cost. They feel a little squishy.

Also, while its true that we are getting higher firepower, its maybe a circumstance that FFG decided not to lower ships down in price, and instead had to readjust ships back up to their value... which almost always tended to be too weak for their firepower.

A naked tie advanced has 1 hull more than a Tie/FO. And look how much the Tie/FO got included in its 3 point increase: a shield upgrade (worth 4pts already!!!), Target lock action, 2 hard greens, segnors, tech slot.

Even with all of these, the current consensus is that the Tie/FO isnt' even like super super good: especially with TLT around, and simply due to how hard those extra 3 points depress your ability to buy firepower.

It sure blew my mind how much the FO got. I was super sure it was gonna be OP. No way.

(Although I think I was right about how annoying Poe is/was. He is Tier1, and that's what I surmised too.)

Since the tie advanced has a much much worse dial, you could reasonably make an argument that the tie advanced naked should cost near 16 to 17 points!! That's 4 to 5 points overcosted!

Firepower basically has a set point value, and depresses other things such as maneuverability and hull for the same points. the threshold for 2 power is near 19 points MAX, with an efficiency nearer to 16 as we see.

Two-red-dice ships feel underpowered against C-3PO and Autothrusters.

C-3PO's dominance ushered in the need for Autothrusters and three-red-dice ships.

In hindsight, PWTs should have suffered some kind of penalty for shooting out of arc. It probably doesn't matter though, because there would have been a different kind of arms race to replace the one we have today.

Just accept that at any given time, some ships will never be competitive, even if they are loads of fun to fly.

When two dice ships stop making top tables completely, I'll be concerned. But World's was just a few short months ago, and everyone seems to forget #2 overall had a freakin' Prototype Pilot A-Wing in the list.

Don't get me wrong, there's some great points in here, specifically in regards to how many defensive buffs can make two dice attackers almost laughable. Let's see if I can't break it down a bit and take a look at all the current/upcoming "two dice attackers":

• A-Wing: Great little ships in my opinion. Cheap, hard to kill, and the action bar + dial to be nasty blockers. Their top aces are still seeing common play among Rebel players, and any pilot with a natural EPT slot ends up with excellent action economy and positioning to help nullify the failings of only two dice. They're also a natural fit for Proton Rockets to help punch through up to a whopping five damage once a game. I think Arvel Crynyd, and to a lesser extent Gemmer Sojan, are the only ones here not feeling a lot of love.
• Y-Wing: Don't even need to really be on this list, given how I've never seen one that relied only on its primary gun. Both Scum and Rebels are just fine with their plethora of potential upgrades. With guidance chips on the way, along with their access to bombs, turrets, and astromechs, the Y-Wing might very well be the single most customizable ship in the game. Sure, most folks use them as either a Stressbot and/or TLT platform, but that's just the tip of what one could do with these guys. Heck, they're worth mentioning simply because they're a great example of what FFG can do with a two-dice ship.
• Z-95 Headhunter: The cheapest of the cheap for both Scum and Rebels. But honestly, I don't think they need any kind of "fix" (though I'd love some more pilots to play with!). I came in third last year in a sizable tournament mainly thanks to these buggers, and the first Store Championship down here in Houston featured a swarm of eight of the bastards coming in second place overall. They have a middling (but I'd vote criminally underrated) dial, but they're so expendable and cheap that they can make for amazing blockers. They're also nice platforms to get cheap illicits into a Scum list, and with Guidance Chips they'll finally have a shot of living up to their release hype as "cheap ordnance carriers". They'll be "discount A-Wings", being cheap blockers that will have the option to lay on one sizable attack per game, which ain't too shabby.
• K-Wing: See Y-Wing, mostly. On the flip side, those two dice are in a 360, making them acceptable even if you don't want to throw on a turret of any kind. Solid bomb carriers if you've got the stones for it, and will also see plenty of love soon in the form of Guidance Chips and Long Range Scanners as FFG continues to try and give us the option of not feeling stupid for carrying ordnance around.
• TIE Fighter: The two dice attack ship, and the baseline upon which the rest of the game has been built. Honestly, if you think these guys are obsolete you're smoking... well, something strong. I don't even know where to start with these little buggers, they've been a staple of the game since it released and continue to succeed. Maybe they've lost half a step, but the TIE Swarm will probably always have its place. Cheapest Imperial ship, solid dial+barrel roll makes them annoying blockers, have some both amusing and strong aces (including Wampa, who will forever be in the meta from here on out), and more and more ways to get past that whole "only two dice" bit. "Howlrunner" re-rolls, Crack Shot for EPT carriers, and three named pilots who can situationally get extra attack dice at a very low cost. You've even got Night Beast and Chaser with their wannabe PTL abilities, and even the lowly Winged Gundark can make the best of his attacks by adding a crit in close range. Literally not a pilot among them not worth using (even in Youngster doesn't, at least yet, have access to anything super amazing). Academies? Cheap as dirt. Obsidians? Cheap as higher quality dirt, immune to the bonuses of Predator and shoot before all those PS2 jerks out there. Blacks? Crack Shot or any other EPT you desire. Though it is fair to say they're not the cream of the crop. Any list reliant on "Howlrunner" is at risk of losing badly should she die in spectacular fashion, they require immense skill to fly in swarms (which can also be tiring), and generics/non-CS TIEs will struggle with stuff like Sensor Jammer which can keep screwing with their dice each and every shot.
• TIE/Fo Fighter: I recently saw someone on here claim the TIE/Inq will make these guys obsolete. My thoughts on that? Not a damned chance. I do think lower cost generic Fos are in a really bad spot: they're more expensive than generic TIE Fighters, the TL action is mostly useless for them, and the Tech slot does little for them other than serve as a potential points drain. Maybe there's a spot for the Epsilon Squadron Pilot as a superb blocker? Because the TIE/Fo has an incredible dial, possibly the best in the game at the moment. But the real strength of the Fo comes in their named pilots and the Omega Squadron Pilots: these guys are all, in their own right, pretty amazing. Throw on a Comms Relay, and you have the best Juke carrier around at the moment. Zeta Leader and Omega Leader? These guys are quality "budget" aces, both can be downright scary. "Epsilon Ace" and "Omega Ace" are the only two I'm not totally sold on quite yet, but I can see some fun there. And even if you don't have a bunch of copies of Juke and Comms Relay, or you want to save a couple points, any of em' with an EPT can be rough to face with PTL. With so many greens, they're more than happy to handle the stress.
• TIE Advanced: Like the Y-Wing, probably not needed to be put on here. x1 title gives them the ability to add a crit to their attacks via ATC, making them superior to 3-dice attack ships. Even if you opt out of ATC, Accuracy Corrector will at least get you the most of your two sad little dice and there's utility to be had in other System slot upgrades. Also great Proton Rocket candidates, and a plethora of tantalizing named pilots. Sure, Vader gets most of the love, but there's plenty of room in the game for all of them (even though Alozen is sorta forgettable).
• TIE Bomber: See K-Wings and Y-Wings. Two dice attacks, sure, but it's not what they're meant for primarily. They're either support ships or explosive carriers, and they're only going to get better with all the new toys coming out. Even so, at the moment I'd argue they're vastly underrated at the moment. Imperial Aces, Scanners, Chimps... everything is looking up for the TIE Bomber. Like the Y-Wing, soon they'll be one of the most versatile ships on the table, whether they're running as support, launching missiles/torpedoes, or dropping bombs. Captain Jonus will always have his spot in Imperial squads, and Tomax Bren has me drooling at the mouth with all his possibilities (the most obvious being to throw Crack Shot and some Homing Missiles on him, but so much more potential here!). Then we've got poor, poor Major Rhymer, almost certainly the most over-priced pilot in all of X-wing. But hey, those Scimitars can still shine with the right love
• TIE Punisher: Another ordnance boat, got plenty of those mentioned in here already. Screw it, I'm lazy: generics mostly suck, "Redline" can be brutal, "Deathrain" is one of the most fun pilots in all of the game to fly. Apply all the crap I said about the other bombers and gunboats to these guys, and then throw in some barrel roll+bomb fun and a Frank Castle reference or two.
• TIE Advanced Prototype: Not out yet, so hard to say 100%. The Inquisitor is also essentially a three dice pilot, so he can be safely ignored in this conversation. What we do know of is Valen Rudor and the lowest tier generic, along with the fun little title that comes with them. It also appears, on paper, to have one of the best dials in X-Wing (possibly the best depending on how you feel about it lacking the Fo's S-Loop). Appears to be a cheap ship, right there with the A-Wing and TIE/Fo, and holy crap both boost and barrel roll. Throw that together and I'll wager the low level generic will at least have a place in the game as a superb blocker, who for one point can get respectable action economy. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sold on Valen Rudor. He's a strong Juke candidate with the title, which already should make up for his dice short comings, and his ability allows for the always potent ability to take actions and re-position during the combat phase. It's served PTL Decimators with Isard and Turr Phennir well, and it should do the same for him. The real question will be the second tier generics: can they take an EPT or not? If they can, they'll be fun little Juke boats, or even just crush you with PTL shenanigans (TL+Evade+Focus each and every turn? It's a poor man's Soontir!), which consistent 2 hits will typically, eventually, overwhelm those finicky, traitorous greens. But if they don't have an EPT slot? I fear they'll be pretty useless.
• M3-A "Scyk" Interceptor: Yeah, okay, they suck. Though to be fair, 90% of the time they're not "two dice" ships as they've been outfitted with some form of cannon. Serissu's ability does nothing to help deal damage (and mostly just paints a target on her fragile back), Laetin is amusing but his ability is only mediocre if he has to spend most of his actions in defense in order to get even more defense (sometimes hurting his offensive abilities), and the Cartel Spacer is well overshadowed by the cheaper Z-95s which, unlike the Scyk, can carry illicit upgrades. I will say a shining, often over-looked, grace here is that the Tansarii Point Veteran is a very cheap candidate for Crack Shot, that you can also throw a cannon on. They can have their situational uses (I'm personally fond of Flechette Spacers with Dace Bonearm and Crack Shot Mangler TPVs), but I think most will agree that this is the bottom of the X-Wing barrel at the moment.

Honestly, neither Wampa or Omega are going to seriously do it that well... For their cost. They feel a little squishy.

A naked tie advanced has 1 hull more than a Tie/FO. And look how much the Tie/FO got included in its 3 point increase: a shield upgrade (worth 4pts already!!!), Target lock action, 2 hard greens, segnors, tech slot.

A better way of putting it is that the TIE/fo gets a shield, an improved dial, the Tech slot and Target Lock in exchange for costing 25% more than the equivalent TIE/ln. Which is probably why its "named" pilots are seeing more play than its generics, with all due respect to Crack Omega Squadron.

Wampa overcosted, that's funny stuff.

Inquisitor TIE, with the good pilot (wich will surely be the one we'll see 99% of the time

Not every Imperial player is a fan of that (rather weak) show you know.

A good summary.

And yes, Wampa is fragile - he's a TIE fighter, after all - but he's only 16 points with a targeting computer. There's no need to 'build a list around him' but he's one hell of a filler unit; for 16 points, even high-powered aces will be very nervous about letting him get a shot off.

All of the TIE fighter aces are incredible value, but the 16 point ones are good 'bolt ons' to another squad, too - Dark Curse is one of the most annoying pilots in the game*, Backstabber is a Royal Guard Interceptor for 6 points less than he should cost unless your opponent decides to spend time hunting down a lone TIE fighter instead of engaging your main force.....and TC Wampa can land hits on a fully equipped and actioned-up TIE interceptor straight through autothrusters, tokens, and shields.

The first time I used him, his first, range 3 shot landed on Corran Horn and took off one of his two hit points. It's amazing how rapidly my opponent's targeting priorities changed at that point!

* latest case of Dark Curse Makes You Hate People was someone proxying the new Imperial Veterans.

Hahahaha! he said, now I have Gamma Squadron Veterans with Deadeye, which do not have pilot skill problems in getting target locks!

Indeed, came the reply, but don't you need to spend a focus token to fire your missiles when you do that?

And there were many swearwords.

Inquisitor TIE, with the good pilot (wich will surely be the one we'll see 99% of the time

Not every Imperial player is a fan of that (rather weak) show you know.

People keep making arguments, how FFGs trend of "fixing" old ships is a sign of power-creep in the game, but the truth is that almost all the ships that have been or going to be fixed (Tie Adv., A-Wing, Defender, Y-Wing...) where never considered good to begin with. the only case I can think of where an old ship was marginalized because a new one came out and did the same thing but better was when the B-Wing replaced the X-Wing and that was all the way back in wave 3.

Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

Rebels in a nutshell

You mean the writers of Rebels see themselves as freighters/shuttles?

Nah I mean all the characters are complete and utter failure of writers, filled with Special Snowflake cream.

All the character set is just a bluntest example of quotas on aliens and females...ahem...

And then these mary sues are put into "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE" shuttle inside of "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE!" ship

and given complete losers for adversaries.

p.s. still better than re-telling New Hope TFA though, with their "Like T-65 but better! Like TIE\Ln but better! Like Deathstar BUT BETTER!" bantacrap

*stops rambling*

what was the thread about?

Firepower?

All of those ships needed those adjustments...that's why hardly anyone was playing them. The Inquisitor has a good ability but no ship is good enough that it is seen "99%" of the time.

Everyone needs to calm their **** about fixing this or broken that. FFG has never even hinted of ignoring ships left behind or allowing a ship to dominate the meta. Furthermore, FFG has never taken a fix idea from these forums. Let FFG do what FFG has been doing. Which is producing a great game.

Actually it is likely they have taken general consensus from forums and tweaked game. Alex Davie has stated on several interviews they are aware of this or that issue that has been brought up online etc. (Phantom and Fat Han nerfs are pretty much fan driven) They have never stated that due to excessive online complaining they changed this or that either though. There is some interaction between fans on forums and the game designers. This does have an influence but how much no one really knows.

They do indeed look a lot for what is going on on the forum. And until now i can not see any decision that would not make sense from them.

The Phantom plus Advanced cloaking was OP, but regarding the fixes, they pretty much nailed it every time!

Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

Rebels in a nutshell

You mean the writers of Rebels see themselves as freighters/shuttles?

Nah I mean all the characters are complete and utter failure of writers, filled with Special Snowflake cream.

All the character set is just a bluntest example of quotas on aliens and females...ahem...

And then these mary sues are put into "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE" shuttle inside of "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE!" ship

and given complete losers for adversaries.

p.s. still better than re-telling New Hope TFA though, with their "Like T-67 but better! Like TIE\Ln but better! Like Deathstar BUT BETTER!" bantacrap

*stops rambling*

what was the thread about?

Firepower?

Also the Ghost and Phantom will very likely not be seen even close to the top of the meta! And the Characters being clichés in an animated series... Well i can pretty easily forgive that!

Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

Rebels in a nutshell

You mean the writers of Rebels see themselves as freighters/shuttles?

Nah I mean all the characters are complete and utter failure of writers, filled with Special Snowflake cream.

All the character set is just a bluntest example of quotas on aliens and females...ahem...

And then these mary sues are put into "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE" shuttle inside of "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE!" ship

and given complete losers for adversaries.

p.s. still better than re-telling New Hope TFA though, with their "Like T-65 but better! Like TIE\Ln but better! Like Deathstar BUT BETTER!" bantacrap

*stops rambling*

what was the thread about?

Firepower?

Pretty much how 3 attack dice is 2 attack dice BUT BETTER

but no ship is good enough that it is seen "99%" of the time.

But to be fair he's the only example I can think of. Dash is close, but there are Leebo builds out there; Vader is close, but AC generics take mention; Soontir is close, but Carnor is also common; as an inverse example Gold Squadron Y's are close, but sometimes you see a Grey for PS and ever so rarely you'll see Horton; probably 99% of Aggressor lists use 88B, but they also often have another IG-88 in there, so his usage is closer to 50%.