For better or worse, FFGs Star Wars line is very period specific, and there really isn't a Je'daii tradition in the Era of Empire, is there?

This is a fine example of moving the goal post. Why not actually comment on the rules presented?

The "rules as presented" don't even remotely touch on the Je'dai because the Je'dai are (again, for better or worse) utterly and completely irrelevant to the time period that FFG decided to present in their product. There are no Je'dai -- they're ancient history.

FFG made the decision to not publish a "sandbox" game. Their game line is set in a very specific period of several decades at most, and they haven't published anything to do with the Je'dai or set up the rules to account for such a thing for the same reason they haven't published anything the Sith species, or the model of ship to which the Ebon Hawk belongs, or any careers related to the old Sith empire, or anything regarding Tython.

I don't necessarily like that FFG avoided the "sandbox" and decided to try to closely emulate the feel and trappings of a very specific time period, but I'm not going to criticize them on grounds based on failings as a "sandbox" when they didn't ever intend to create one and the game isn't one.

PS: "moving the goalposts" actually has a meaning, you know.

You're confusing and conflating Morality with Balance when they are not the same. So yes, Jedi and Sith plus other force users get bonuses for being Light Side or Dark Side Paragons while Je'daii do not gain anything since they must be balanced. This isn't to say that they couldn't be moral, but that is not their goal. Their goal is to remain balanced in all aspects of the force. Do the existing rules capture this? No, they fail to address the Je'daii adequately which is why house rules are needed.

Those that got shipped off to Ashlan and Bogan were not sent their because of their morality. They were sent there because they were out of balance with the Force.

Ahh so it's the hang-up on the word "Morality" that bothers you! You could simply just rename Morality to Balance, and not bother with all the convoluted changes?

As you pointed out, Je'daii are canon within the grounds of FFG Star Wars, and all force users in the FFG system by RAW use the Morality system. Now, if you feel the need to modify the system for your table, then that's perfectly within your rights. However, this is an instance where you're fixing something that isn't broken. So most of us are responding negatively because it seems like you're adding a lot of complexity for no real payoff.

Morality is a representation of a characters mindset, as well as his ties to the Force. A character with a high Morality, grows closer to the Light side of the Force. Conversely, a low Morality character becomes more immersed in the Dark Side of the Force. If you really wanted to be balanced, you'd just keeping your Morality around 50.

It seems you could just rename Morality to Balance, and use the RAW with Paragon bonus for Balance between 40-60. The extra rules your adding, really don't change anything. They're just more numbers to track. It would be no harder for me to maintain Balance 50 in your proposed system, then it would to maintain Morality 50 in RAW.

EDIT: Sorry if I seem harsh, I'm not actually trying to be. I just don't like the idea of giving Paragon bonuses to characters, and then telling them they get to keep them by doing.... nothing. Afterall Balance can be easily maintained by literally doing nothing.

No, you're just harsh because you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion. It's the classic my way or the highway syndrome. Funny, but I did rename Morality to Balance. I also presented the hierarchy on the Je'daii Order for those groups that actually want to rebuild it. Just like the way it's done for Jedi and Sith in the rules.

For better or worse, FFGs Star Wars line is very period specific, and there really isn't a Je'daii tradition in the Era of Empire, is there?

This is a fine example of moving the goal post. Why not actually comment on the rules presented?

The "rules as presented" don't even remotely touch on the Je'dai because the Je'dai are (again, for better or worse) utterly and completely irrelevant to the time period that FFG decided to present in their product. There are no Je'dai -- they're ancient history.

FFG made the decision to not publish a "sandbox" game. Their game line is set in a very specific period of several decades at most, and they haven't published anything to do with the Je'dai or set up the rules to account for such a thing for the same reason they haven't published anything the Sith species, or the model of ship to which the Ebon Hawk belongs, or any careers related to the old Sith empire, or anything regarding Tython.

I don't necessarily like that FFG avoided the "sandbox" and decided to try to closely emulate the feel and trappings of a very specific time period, but I'm not going to criticize them on grounds based on failings as a "sandbox" when they didn't ever intend to create one and the game isn't one.

PS: "moving the goalposts" actually has a meaning, you know.

I believe you mean completely and utterly irrelevant to your game. In the game I'm in these rules are actually quite important. FFG does make it clear that the GM and the players can alter the game as they see fit to play in the universe as they desire. So they did present F&D as a sandbox game. Your opinion is thus completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Do you have anything that is actually on topic of this thread and the House Rules for the Je'daii Order? No, then the door is that way.

You're confusing and conflating Morality with Balance when they are not the same. So yes, Jedi and Sith plus other force users get bonuses for being Light Side or Dark Side Paragons while Je'daii do not gain anything since they must be balanced. This isn't to say that they couldn't be moral, but that is not their goal. Their goal is to remain balanced in all aspects of the force. Do the existing rules capture this? No, they fail to address the Je'daii adequately which is why house rules are needed.

Those that got shipped off to Ashlan and Bogan were not sent their because of their morality. They were sent there because they were out of balance with the Force.

Ahh so it's the hang-up on the word "Morality" that bothers you! You could simply just rename Morality to Balance, and not bother with all the convoluted changes?

As you pointed out, Je'daii are canon within the grounds of FFG Star Wars, and all force users in the FFG system by RAW use the Morality system. Now, if you feel the need to modify the system for your table, then that's perfectly within your rights. However, this is an instance where you're fixing something that isn't broken. So most of us are responding negatively because it seems like you're adding a lot of complexity for no real payoff.

Morality is a representation of a characters mindset, as well as his ties to the Force. A character with a high Morality, grows closer to the Light side of the Force. Conversely, a low Morality character becomes more immersed in the Dark Side of the Force. If you really wanted to be balanced, you'd just keeping your Morality around 50.

It seems you could just rename Morality to Balance, and use the RAW with Paragon bonus for Balance between 40-60. The extra rules your adding, really don't change anything. They're just more numbers to track. It would be no harder for me to maintain Balance 50 in your proposed system, then it would to maintain Morality 50 in RAW.

EDIT: Sorry if I seem harsh, I'm not actually trying to be. I just don't like the idea of giving Paragon bonuses to characters, and then telling them they get to keep them by doing.... nothing. Afterall Balance can be easily maintained by literally doing nothing.

No, you're just harsh because you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion. It's the classic my way or the highway syndrome. Funny, but I did rename Morality to Balance. I also presented the hierarchy on the Je'daii Order for those groups that actually want to rebuild it. Just like the way it's done for Jedi and Sith in the rules.

For better or worse, FFGs Star Wars line is very period specific, and there really isn't a Je'daii tradition in the Era of Empire, is there?

This is a fine example of moving the goal post. Why not actually comment on the rules presented?

The "rules as presented" don't even remotely touch on the Je'dai because the Je'dai are (again, for better or worse) utterly and completely irrelevant to the time period that FFG decided to present in their product. There are no Je'dai -- they're ancient history.

FFG made the decision to not publish a "sandbox" game. Their game line is set in a very specific period of several decades at most, and they haven't published anything to do with the Je'dai or set up the rules to account for such a thing for the same reason they haven't published anything the Sith species, or the model of ship to which the Ebon Hawk belongs, or any careers related to the old Sith empire, or anything regarding Tython.

I don't necessarily like that FFG avoided the "sandbox" and decided to try to closely emulate the feel and trappings of a very specific time period, but I'm not going to criticize them on grounds based on failings as a "sandbox" when they didn't ever intend to create one and the game isn't one.

PS: "moving the goalposts" actually has a meaning, you know.

I believe you mean completely and utterly irrelevant to your game. In the game I'm in these rules are actually quite important. FFG does make it clear that the GM and the players can alter the game as they see fit to play in the universe as they desire. So they did present F&D as a sandbox game. Your opinion is thus completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Do you have anything that is actually on topic of this thread and the House Rules for the Je'daii Order? No, then the door is that way.

Uh, no, it isn't? He is absolutely right. Also, you're basically saying "well in MY game it's relevant and how dare they not cater to me" and then saying it's a system flaw. Of course, you can do whatever you want with the game, but it is NOT a sandbox. If it were, then the published adventure modules would be setting/time period neutral, which they are most certainly not. Also, every single flavor text to give players information regarding the galaxy refers to the era of the Galactic Civil War - again not a sandbox.

The F&D core rulebook says otherwise under the Adventures and Campaign sections of the GM section. The GM and players can decide when their game takes place and the setting police from FFG won't kick down the door to ensure that they only play in "this" time period.

No one said you can't play in any era you want.

No one said that you can't create house rules.

However...

1) you offered up your house rules for comment, and people did.

2) it's absolutely unfair to criticize the "RAW" for failing to be something that FFG simply never intended them to be.

The F&D core rulebook says otherwise under the Adventures and Campaign sections of the GM section. The GM and players can decide when their game takes place and the setting police from FFG won't kick down the door to ensure that they only play in "this" time period.

Once again, I am NOT saying you cannot play in any era you want. However, FFG chose the Galactic Civil War to be their setting, and so all of their official work is presented as such.

Why are you arguing that?

1) Force Views

Light Side/Dark Side: Conduct and Emotions that are positive and negative.

Living Force/Unifying Force: Living Things/Space and Time

Cosmic Force/Physical Force: Life after Death/All things in the surroundings

To be balanced a Je'daii must try to be in the center of each of these scales. They will use and develop their Force abilities being mindful of where they stand in regards to the scales.

2) Scales

At the ends of each scale are the two extremes for that scale. The goal of the Je'daii practitioner is to be in the middle of all three scales. The center point of the scales is 0 and the points at the opposite ends are 70 and -70. When a Je'daii character is created the player choses to start off at -30 or 30 on the individual scales. The bonus to Morality taken at Character Creation can be used to push the Je'daii closer to 0 on all three scales.

Once a Je'daii reaches 0 Balance on the scales, they gain +1 Stat adjustment, +2 Wounds, +2 Strain, and the ability to combine 1 Light Side pip and 1 Dark Side pip to make a single Grey pip. The Grey pip does not move them on the scale and counts as a balanced pip that can be subtracted from Light Side and Dark Side pips to determine how they move in regards to the scales.

The Light/Dark Side Scale determines where they fall more to the light or dark side of the Force. For Je'daii, moving in either direction on the scale will force them into conflict that may lead to more mistakes.

The Living/Unifying Force scale determines if they fall towards the Living Force or the Unifying Force.

Cosmic Force/Physical Force scale determines where they fall in the two extremes.

Light Side<--->Dark Side

Living Force<-->Unifying Force

Cosmic Force<-->Physical Force

3) Je'daii Ranks

Learner

Padawan

Journeyman

Ranger

Master

Temple Master

Starting characters can choose to where they want to be on the scales at the beginning of the game. However, they cannot be placed at 0 at the start. They must train to get to be balance.

A Learner is a person that has recently joined the Order. They must be Force Sensitive and have at least 10 points in Force Powers before they are eligible to be Padawans. Must have their balance within 30 points, of 0, on the Light/Dark Side scale.

Padawans are Learners that have been chosen by a Journeyman or higher to train with. They must have at least 10 points in Force Powers and 10 points in their Je'daii Career Specialization. Must have their balance within 20 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale.

Journeyman have completed their training as Padawan and must have a minimum of 25 points in Force Powers and 25 points in their Career Specializations. Must have their balance within 15 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale. To be made a Ranger, they must complete the Great Journey by traveling to all of the original 9 Temples and learn from the holocrons there. A Journeyman can take a padawan on to train if there aren't any members of the Order left. This is an exemption to allow for training more Je'daii than normal. Once the Order is restored, only Rangers or higher can take on Padawans.

A Ranger has completed their Great Journey and must take a Padawan to train. They must have at least 40 points in Force Powers and 40 points in their Career Specializations. Must have their balance within 10 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale. They, also, must have a Force Rating of 2.

A Master must have trained at least one Padawan, have one Force Power mastered, and have one Career Specialization mastered. Must have their balance within 5 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale. They, also, must have a Force Rating of 3.

A Temple Master must have three Force Powers mastered and all three of their Career Specializations mastered. Must have their balance within the center on the Light/Dark Side scale. They also must be appointed to one of the nine temples. They, also, must have a Force Rating of 3.

1. So Balance is one scale or three scales? Is there any interaction between the scales? And how do you adjust the starting balance on the different scales? I assume each scale is independent of the other, so spending dsps moves you in one direction on the various scales and lsps the other, but is using force powers the only way to move along these scales? Isn't actions, regardless of force power usage, moving along these scales too? How do you determine this?
   1. Is Balance (0) being in the centre of all three scales or just light/dark?
2. I've covered this before, I find it unnecessary, lacking drawbacks, too good bonuses (unless you require a Balance of 0 on all three scales) and mainly useless outside a very specific type of contained game. There seems to be missing any immediate effect from using dsps vs lsps. the whole, unifying, cosmic and living force malarkey doesn't seem to add much, but then I'm not that into the Tython-era legendarium. Still:
   1. What are the consequences of going extreme dark or light? Or falling extremely towards the unifying or living force? What about the cosmic or physical force? Examples would be great. Considering the game mechanical bonuses from attaining Balance, why are there no similar drawbacks? Why is the only "drawback" the possibility of losing the bonus from being in balance?
   2. Also, why does the philosophy of Balance replace the consequences consequences of being consumed by the dark side? Or the light? If there's one thing that seems to be pretty much settled (barring the misguided Je'daii teachings ), it is the fact the Force has a dark side, and that it's a good idea to stay away from this as it ain't so good for yourself, your relationships, others and the galaxy in general. It's basically bad for the Force and the galaxy/universe. So I'm not against including the balance deal, or the "whatever hypocrisy" mentioned previously, but it seems these did not last, for a reason. They were "wrong" or "misguided" or "inaccurate" or whatever. Regardless of persuasion I do wonder why you make a mechanic designed for one specific tradition, whereas the existing one can be used with any, also the Je'daii as exemplified by other posters in this very thread. Why would the bonuses come from the philosophical standpoint anyway? Isn't it the Force that provides?
   3. Also: does Balance actually mean equal part good and evil? Equal parts wanton destruction and creation? I don't think that's what the balance of the Force means in the Star Wars universe, it's what too many bad Legends writers thought it meant as they translated inadequately into a (post-)modern way of thinking and understanding. Too many Legends writers who saw only two extremes, two areas of fundamentalism... balance would not be equal part light-dark, it would be void of fundamentalism, void extremism ... and basically, if we look at canon: we can see the corruption of the Jedi Order as a slide toward the dark side, arrogance, narrow mindedness... not light stuff, but dark stuff. Even in the hunt for the light you can become evil (as with Anakin, so with the Jedi Order, as well as the Sith)... the paragons of the Force are not (necessarily) fundamentalists or extremists, they're at peace, balanced and more or less at one with the Force... anywho, politics and ideology all mixed up with some religious celibate monks with glowsticks... I mean, the prejudice against politicians in the PT is betraying the politics of the Jedi ... and an ignorance of their status as politicians, a political institution as well as being a more or less religious order... the Republic was mixing religion and politics ... no wonder it went **** up.
   4. As for the living, unifying, cosmic etc ad nauseam notions of or beliefs in the Force ... If adding these server your game in a positive way, go for it. To me those seems just too much based on Legends crap. Sure Qui-Gon mentions the Living Force and the Cosmic Force appears in TCW, but the rest is made up Legends mumbo-jumbo, propaganda spouted by Legends writers and a misguided (New) Jedi Order lead by Luke Skywalker in an alternate timeline, now reset. but I get it, it adds something to your game and it is part of you personalised canon.
   5. Anyway, if I had a player insistent upon doing this balance act as a thing and desiring bonuses like that of the paragon and dark sider, I'd require him (or her) to stay within 45-55 morality (the balance act ain't an easy one) and he'd gain a bonus comparable to that of paragon and dark sider.
3. You've been asking about feedback on this, so here goes:
   1. Lots of ranks, but that's flavour I guess.
   2. Where's this Je'daii career specialisation? What does it do? What types of specialisations does the career have? Can I see it?
   3. Kudos for not having crazy Force rating requirements! *thumbs up*
   4. Generally I don't like numeric requirements like this, it smacks too much of prestige class and other crap from the good ole WotC days, but your requirements aren't steep (of course that depends on how stingy or generous the GM is with XP and how you can choose to spend said XP) and they are not too many.
   5. Why is it only the light/dark side scale that is required for the higher ranks? Shouldn't there be requirements for the other two as well?
   6. And all things considered, if you are FR 3 (or 4) and you have the ability to merge dsps and lsps to create these gsps, you're basically halving your force pool (effectively kind of halving your force rating, right?) which means there isn't that much you can do before you lose balance - and that's just on the force power usage, saying nothing about actions of the character.

Actually, hate to break it to you, but as of the great canon wipe back on April 25th 2014, Je'ddai are strictly in the Legends category, which means they are most assuredly not canon in the context of the films, The Clone Wars tv series, and materials created and published after that date.

The comic book Dawn of the Jedi had it's last issue published in March 2014, putting it outside the new canon. And the various Wookieepedia articles that detail the Je'ddai Order all note that the source material is Legends. And if it's one thing the Wookieepedia editors have been diligent about, it's ensuring what is and is not considered canon is properly labeled as such.

In the context of Force & Destiny, they are canon since they are mentioned in the rules.

I think you missed the box/side bar on page 378 titled "The Reliability of Legends".

1) Force Views

Light Side/Dark Side: Conduct and Emotions that are positive and negative.

Living Force/Unifying Force: Living Things/Space and Time

Cosmic Force/Physical Force: Life after Death/All things in the surroundings

To be balanced a Je'daii must try to be in the center of each of these scales. They will use and develop their Force abilities being mindful of where they stand in regards to the scales.

2) Scales

At the ends of each scale are the two extremes for that scale. The goal of the Je'daii practitioner is to be in the middle of all three scales. The center point of the scales is 0 and the points at the opposite ends are 70 and -70. When a Je'daii character is created the player choses to start off at -30 or 30 on the individual scales. The bonus to Morality taken at Character Creation can be used to push the Je'daii closer to 0 on all three scales.

Once a Je'daii reaches 0 Balance on the scales, they gain +1 Stat adjustment, +2 Wounds, +2 Strain, and the ability to combine 1 Light Side pip and 1 Dark Side pip to make a single Grey pip. The Grey pip does not move them on the scale and counts as a balanced pip that can be subtracted from Light Side and Dark Side pips to determine how they move in regards to the scales.

The Light/Dark Side Scale determines where they fall more to the light or dark side of the Force. For Je'daii, moving in either direction on the scale will force them into conflict that may lead to more mistakes.

The Living/Unifying Force scale determines if they fall towards the Living Force or the Unifying Force.

Cosmic Force/Physical Force scale determines where they fall in the two extremes.

Light Side<--->Dark Side

Living Force<-->Unifying Force

Cosmic Force<-->Physical Force

3) Je'daii Ranks

Learner

Padawan

Journeyman

Ranger

Master

Temple Master

Starting characters can choose to where they want to be on the scales at the beginning of the game. However, they cannot be placed at 0 at the start. They must train to get to be balance.

A Learner is a person that has recently joined the Order. They must be Force Sensitive and have at least 10 points in Force Powers before they are eligible to be Padawans. Must have their balance within 30 points, of 0, on the Light/Dark Side scale.

Padawans are Learners that have been chosen by a Journeyman or higher to train with. They must have at least 10 points in Force Powers and 10 points in their Je'daii Career Specialization. Must have their balance within 20 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale.

Journeyman have completed their training as Padawan and must have a minimum of 25 points in Force Powers and 25 points in their Career Specializations. Must have their balance within 15 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale. To be made a Ranger, they must complete the Great Journey by traveling to all of the original 9 Temples and learn from the holocrons there. A Journeyman can take a padawan on to train if there aren't any members of the Order left. This is an exemption to allow for training more Je'daii than normal. Once the Order is restored, only Rangers or higher can take on Padawans.

A Ranger has completed their Great Journey and must take a Padawan to train. They must have at least 40 points in Force Powers and 40 points in their Career Specializations. Must have their balance within 10 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale. They, also, must have a Force Rating of 2.

A Master must have trained at least one Padawan, have one Force Power mastered, and have one Career Specialization mastered. Must have their balance within 5 points of 0 on the Light/Dark Side scale. They, also, must have a Force Rating of 3.

A Temple Master must have three Force Powers mastered and all three of their Career Specializations mastered. Must have their balance within the center on the Light/Dark Side scale. They also must be appointed to one of the nine temples. They, also, must have a Force Rating of 3.

1. So Balance is one scale or three scales? Is there any interaction between the scales? And how do you adjust the starting balance on the different scales? I assume each scale is independent of the other, so spending dsps moves you in one direction on the various scales and lsps the other, but is using force powers the only way to move along these scales? Isn't actions, regardless of force power usage, moving along these scales too? How do you determine this?
   1. Is Balance (0) being in the centre of all three scales or just light/dark?
2. I've covered this before, I find it unnecessary, lacking drawbacks, too good bonuses (unless you require a Balance of 0 on all three scales) and mainly useless outside a very specific type of contained game. There seems to be missing any immediate effect from using dsps vs lsps. the whole, unifying, cosmic and living force malarkey doesn't seem to add much, but then I'm not that into the Tython-era legendarium. Still:
   1. What are the consequences of going extreme dark or light? Or falling extremely towards the unifying or living force? What about the cosmic or physical force? Examples would be great. Considering the game mechanical bonuses from attaining Balance, why are there no similar drawbacks? Why is the only "drawback" the possibility of losing the bonus from being in balance?
   2. Also, why does the philosophy of Balance replace the consequences consequences of being consumed by the dark side? Or the light? If there's one thing that seems to be pretty much settled (barring the misguided Je'daii teachings ), it is the fact the Force has a dark side, and that it's a good idea to stay away from this as it ain't so good for yourself, your relationships, others and the galaxy in general. It's basically bad for the Force and the galaxy/universe. So I'm not against including the balance deal, or the "whatever hypocrisy" mentioned previously, but it seems these did not last, for a reason. They were "wrong" or "misguided" or "inaccurate" or whatever. Regardless of persuasion I do wonder why you make a mechanic designed for one specific tradition, whereas the existing one can be used with any, also the Je'daii as exemplified by other posters in this very thread. Why would the bonuses come from the philosophical standpoint anyway? Isn't it the Force that provides?
   3. Also: does Balance actually mean equal part good and evil? Equal parts wanton destruction and creation? I don't think that's what the balance of the Force means in the Star Wars universe, it's what too many bad Legends writers thought it meant as they translated inadequately into a (post-)modern way of thinking and understanding. Too many Legends writers who saw only two extremes, two areas of fundamentalism... balance would not be equal part light-dark, it would be void of fundamentalism, void extremism ... and basically, if we look at canon: we can see the corruption of the Jedi Order as a slide toward the dark side, arrogance, narrow mindedness... not light stuff, but dark stuff. Even in the hunt for the light you can become evil (as with Anakin, so with the Jedi Order, as well as the Sith)... the paragons of the Force are not (necessarily) fundamentalists or extremists, they're at peace, balanced and more or less at one with the Force... anywho, politics and ideology all mixed up with some religious celibate monks with glowsticks... I mean, the prejudice against politicians in the PT is betraying the politics of the Jedi ... and an ignorance of their status as politicians, a political institution as well as being a more or less religious order... the Republic was mixing religion and politics ... no wonder it went **** up.
   4. As for the living, unifying, cosmic etc ad nauseam notions of or beliefs in the Force ... If adding these server your game in a positive way, go for it. To me those seems just too much based on Legends crap. Sure Qui-Gon mentions the Living Force and the Cosmic Force appears in TCW, but the rest is made up Legends mumbo-jumbo, propaganda spouted by Legends writers and a misguided (New) Jedi Order lead by Luke Skywalker in an alternate timeline, now reset. but I get it, it adds something to your game and it is part of you personalised canon.
   5. Anyway, if I had a player insistent upon doing this balance act as a thing and desiring bonuses like that of the paragon and dark sider, I'd require him (or her) to stay within 45-55 morality (the balance act ain't an easy one) and he'd gain a bonus comparable to that of paragon and dark sider.
3. You've been asking about feedback on this, so here goes:
   1. Lots of ranks, but that's flavour I guess.
   2. Where's this Je'daii career specialisation? What does it do? What types of specialisations does the career have? Can I see it?
   3. Kudos for not having crazy Force rating requirements! *thumbs up*
   4. Generally I don't like numeric requirements like this, it smacks too much of prestige class and other crap from the good ole WotC days, but your requirements aren't steep (of course that depends on how stingy or generous the GM is with XP and how you can choose to spend said XP) and they are not too many.
   5. Why is it only the light/dark side scale that is required for the higher ranks? Shouldn't there be requirements for the other two as well?
   6. And all things considered, if you are FR 3 (or 4) and you have the ability to merge dsps and lsps to create these gsps, you're basically halving your force pool (effectively kind of halving your force rating, right?) which means there isn't that much you can do before you lose balance - and that's just on the force power usage, saying nothing about actions of the character.

1. Originally it was on all three scales, so it can be changed back.

2. The existing mechanics do not represent the other Force traditions very well.

3. Balance is using both sides of the force equally and not shying away from using the dark side. However, the drawback can be that if a Je'daii falls to either the Light or Dark side of the Force that they generate -1 Stat, -2 Wounds, -2 Strain, and cannot generate Grey force pips.

4. It does add to our game.

5. Sounds fair, but doesn't accurately represent a Je'daii.

1. There are an equal amount of ranks for the Jedi Order.

2. One isn't needed as the current careers and specializations adequately cover the Je'daii Order.

3. I tried to not require insane requirements.

4. Thanks, but I hated WotC D&D. I think of the requirements as more along the lines of this is where a character should be.

5. You have an excellent point and I can put back in the requirements for the other two scales.

6. That's pretty much it. A character loses half of their potential to play it safe and be balanced.

2) We'll just have to disagree on that. I equate all traditions in my games, the Je'daii won't get any more special treatment than Jedi, Jensaraai, Sith, Witches of Dathomir or any other group. I think this new mechanic does just that, treats someone as special, or more special, than the rest. Granted RAW rewards going to the extremes, but that kind of makes sense as you're becoming an avatar of sorts for one of the two extremes. Being balanced shouldn't, in my opinion, reward you with anything.

3) Again, the -1 stat, -2 wounds and -2 strain is the result of losing a bonus you can't - if I understand your first post correctly - start with, and in either case it's not a drawback, it's back to the normal - going dark side brings along bonuses and drawbacks and going paragon brings about some bonuses, but neither are as powerful as this. Arguably the halving of effective FR to balance all powers could be considered a drawback or penalty, but then I'd make it so that from FR 2 and onwards, if you want to stay balanced you halve your FR (round down) and any result is counted as grey. You could slap on a 1-2 strain cost, or perhaps a manoeuvre cost that can be downgraded to an incidental for 1-2 strain.

5) I'd say it does, you're balancing midway between the light and the dark. From how I remember the comics at least, they still struggled a lot with the balancing thing and it didn't really make them that über powerful. Still, we'll just have to disagree here.

2) Fair enough, then I'd just word it F&D career/spec.

Actually, hate to break it to you, but as of the great canon wipe back on April 25th 2014, Je'ddai are strictly in the Legends category, which means they are most assuredly not canon in the context of the films, The Clone Wars tv series, and materials created and published after that date.

The comic book Dawn of the Jedi had it's last issue published in March 2014, putting it outside the new canon. And the various Wookieepedia articles that detail the Je'ddai Order all note that the source material is Legends. And if it's one thing the Wookieepedia editors have been diligent about, it's ensuring what is and is not considered canon is properly labeled as such.

In the context of Force & Destiny, they are canon since they are mentioned in the rules.

As nothing more than a name drop, which itself could be taken as an earlier name of the Jedi Order and hold much of the same core philosophy as the Jedi Order did when seen in the films. So any of the philosophy that you're trying to build these house rules around remains firmly within the Legends category, even in context of the RPG.

Plus, the status of the RPG itself generally falls into the Legends category except when referencing material already established as canon. Heck, the RPG makes reference to Kessel as it was prior to Star Wars Rebels' "Spark of Rebellion," thus marking FFG's description of the world as incorrect, as well as the AoR book referencing the influence of Starkiller from The Force Unleashed in forming the Rebel Alliance, when TFU has very explicitly been rendered non-canon as per comments by Story Group's Pablo Hidalgo. Even back when RPG materials were canon, they were at the lower levels (sitting below published novels but above video games) and could easily be ignored or overridden by the higher tiers of canon.

Sorry bub, but Je'ddaii and their philosophy are firmly entrenched within the realm of Legends.

Besides, it's been clearly established that the Force doesn't give two sh**s about what a person's philosophy is, and that it operates in terms of black and white.

If you want a PC with a "middle of the road" philosophy, just simply keep your Force user in the range band of 30 to 70 Morality, and making sure to earn Conflict on a regular basis to offset any major gains you might make from rolling high on the d10. Or just deep-six the entire Morality system and be done with it; there are GMs that have done that for their games and it hasn't caused those games to fall completely apart, and EotE and AoR were able to have Force users that worked just fine without requiring the Morality mechanic.

Besides, it's been clearly established that the Force doesn't give two sh**s about what a person's philosophy is, and that it operates in terms of black and white.

Where was this?

Alright, alright, this guy wants his mechanic to be examined and the discussion is getting a bit beyond that. Could the subject be moved to another topic?

That being said, I haven't really examined it in much detail myself. I will comment later when I have read properly (just preparing for a interview tomorrow. woooohooo.)

2) We'll just have to disagree on that. I equate all traditions in my games, the Je'daii won't get any more special treatment than Jedi, Jensaraai, Sith, Witches of Dathomir or any other group. I think this new mechanic does just that, treats someone as special, or more special, than the rest. Granted RAW rewards going to the extremes, but that kind of makes sense as you're becoming an avatar of sorts for one of the two extremes. Being balanced shouldn't, in my opinion, reward you with anything.

3) Again, the -1 stat, -2 wounds and -2 strain is the result of losing a bonus you can't - if I understand your first post correctly - start with, and in either case it's not a drawback, it's back to the normal - going dark side brings along bonuses and drawbacks and going paragon brings about some bonuses, but neither are as powerful as this. Arguably the halving of effective FR to balance all powers could be considered a drawback or penalty, but then I'd make it so that from FR 2 and onwards, if you want to stay balanced you halve your FR (round down) and any result is counted as grey. You could slap on a 1-2 strain cost, or perhaps a manoeuvre cost that can be downgraded to an incidental for 1-2 strain.

5) I'd say it does, you're balancing midway between the light and the dark. From how I remember the comics at least, they still struggled a lot with the balancing thing and it didn't really make them that über powerful. Still, we'll just have to disagree here.

2) Fair enough, then I'd just word it F&D career/spec.

I've taken your advice and implemented the changes. Please let me know what you think.

It's perhaps the wording, and my tired face, but it seems now that force powers give +1 strain if you use gsps... I'd say something like: Using gsps to activate force powers requires the Je'daii to take 1 strain, also their force rating is effectively halved when generating gsps. But as long as you understand what you mean, that's the most important bit.