I'm surprised that no one has replied to this set of house rules. I welcome criticism and debate about it.

I'm surprised that no one has replied to this set of house rules. I welcome criticism and debate about it.

It's hardly been 12 hours, and there's a lot of text to get through. In the words of Master Yoda, "patience, you must learn patience!"

But at a skim, this looks like a hell of a lot of extra complexity for zero actual benefit; it's only adding complexity for the sake of adding complexity, which is one thing this system has generally sought to avoid.

Concepts like Living or Unifying or Cosmic Force are best left as narrative tools, not shoehorned into the system as additional mechanics.

I'm surprised that no one has replied to this set of house rules. I welcome criticism and debate about it.

It's hardly been 12 hours, and there's a lot of text to get through. In the words of Master Yoda, "patience, you must learn patience!"

But at a skim, this looks like a hell of a lot of extra complexity for zero actual benefit; it's only adding complexity for the sake of adding complexity, which is one thing this system has generally sought to avoid.

Concepts like Living or Unifying or Cosmic Force are best left as narrative tools, not shoehorned into the system as additional mechanics.

It's not very complex and utilizes the basics of tracking light and dark side pips. There is no rolling of the 1d10 to see if a character moves to the light or dark side of the force. There are additional benefits for achieving balance with a score of -10 to 10 where a Je'daii gains +1 Stat, +2 Wounds, +2 Strain, and the ability to merge Light Side pips with Dark Side pips to make Grey Force pips. The rest can be tracked if a player so desires. In actual play, there really isn't that much more book keeping compared to the original system, but does have 1 less roll for determining how a character moves in relation to the Light and Dark Side. This system makes it more methodical and dependent upon the Je'daii's choices than the original way.

I'm not sure I see any benefits except another +1 to a characteristic. Beyond that it seems more to be change for the sake of change ... which is fine if you like that sort of thing.

The so-called "grey" point ... why? It just seems less Star Wars with that whole Grey Jedi thing... Star Wars is black and white: slavery is bad, therefore the light side fights slavery whereas the dark side use it and demand it ... the grey side would be the extremist moderate going: a little slavery is ok, as long as it's not too much, so don't overdo it... ? or murder: light side avoid it at all costs, dark side use murder as another tool (some may relish in the thought of murder, but it varies) ... the grey sider would ... be ok with a little murder? Murder just sometimes... keeping a tally like? Ok. I'm sorry...

Also, removing the conflict roll removes a bit of the randomness, this way it is entirely up to how much you can be bothered to game the system and how much the GM shoehorns morality, or balance, +/- points due to whatever actions. Of course, any system like this can be gamed, that's not the point, this way there is no ebb and flow, there is no unconscious or subconscious, there is nothing underlying and instinctual outside the players' control, there is no Force, only his own choices.

I don't think these changes are necessary or game enhancing, but then again I don't see them causing super-game-ruination either.

I'm not sure I see any benefits except another +1 to a characteristic. Beyond that it seems more to be change for the sake of change ... which is fine if you like that sort of thing.

The so-called "grey" point ... why? It just seems less Star Wars with that whole Grey Jedi thing... Star Wars is black and white: slavery is bad, therefore the light side fights slavery whereas the dark side use it and demand it ... the grey side would be the extremist moderate going: a little slavery is ok, as long as it's not too much, so don't overdo it... ? or murder: light side avoid it at all costs, dark side use murder as another tool (some may relish in the thought of murder, but it varies) ... the grey sider would ... be ok with a little murder? Murder just sometimes... keeping a tally like? Ok. I'm sorry...

Also, removing the conflict roll removes a bit of the randomness, this way it is entirely up to how much you can be bothered to game the system and how much the GM shoehorns morality, or balance, +/- points due to whatever actions. Of course, any system like this can be gamed, that's not the point, this way there is no ebb and flow, there is no unconscious or subconscious, there is nothing underlying and instinctual outside the players' control, there is no Force, only his own choices.

I don't think these changes are necessary or game enhancing, but then again I don't see them causing super-game-ruination either.

Thanks for the response.

The current system is geared only towards Jedi and Sith/Dark Siders, so to make things fit with what our group is doing I created these rules. The Je'daii believe in using both sides of the force and view it as the light and dark side as intertwined with one another. That is where the balance in the force is. It's the cycle of life and death, building and destruction etc.... It also means that they are less rigid when it comes to things like attachments etc... In their view, the Jedi are out of balance with the force as are the Dark Siders/Sith. To be balanced a Je'daii must use both sides equally.

The system removes the randomness because it doesn't fit with the narrative style of the game. A Je'daii can still fall to either extreme and it would be through player choice. It also helps to have a GM that is willing to toss in Light Side or Dark Side points in addition to how the powers are used. The fall of a Je'daii should be a slow thing as their view on the Force changes during play and it should be done cooperatively with the GM.

An example from the game I'm in, my character Sneake attacked a group of Flesh Raiders based upon prior experience of them being aggressive. After taking care of the warriors, he attempted to negotiate with the leader of the Flesh Raiders and failed due to all of the warriors being dead. My GM's response to my character's actions was to award an additional Dark Side point because Sneake attacked first. He also didn't stop the Assassin Droid from killing the innocent women and children.

Well, I'm not going to tell you not to do this, but I don't see the need. The dark/light dichotomy is essential to the Force and the so-called light side (up until TFA there was only the Dark Side and then there was the Force ...) does not necessarily try to prevent death and destruction as that is part of life and therefore ultimately the Force itself. The idea behind something "grey" in this is, I think, based on a misunderstanding of the Force and how it works.

What these Je'daii propose, and I read the comics ... sadly... is in actuality that you should act maliciously in equal amounts to unmaliciously, equal part murder-hobo and paramedic ... which ... well, doesn't make sense in my book. Anyway, I'm derailing unintentionally.

If this works for you and your group and you're happy with it, go for it!

I'm not keen on the extra characteristic point, it's seems too much.

Beyond that it's merely the same as the morality system except instead of 1-100 it 70 to -70 ... and you want to keep around 0 to get the boost on a characteristic and the combined boost from dark side and light side, with none of the drawbacks ... really?

<snippety>

Well, I'm not going to tell you not to do this, but I don't see the need. The dark/light dichotomy is essential to the Force and the so-called light side (up until TFA there was only the Dark Side and then there was the Force ...) does not necessarily try to prevent death and destruction as that is part of life and therefore ultimately the Force itself. The idea behind something "grey" in this is, I think, based on a misunderstanding of the Force and how it works.

What these Je'daii propose, and I read the comics ... sadly... is in actuality that you should act maliciously in equal amounts to unmaliciously, equal part murder-hobo and paramedic ... which ... well, doesn't make sense in my book. Anyway, I'm derailing unintentionally.

If this works for you and your group and you're happy with it, go for it!

I'm not keen on the extra characteristic point, it's seems too much.

Beyond that it's merely the same as the morality system except instead of 1-100 it 70 to -70 ... and you want to keep around 0 to get the boost on a characteristic and the combined boost from dark side and light side, with none of the drawbacks ... really?

There are plenty of drawbacks for being a Je'daii. First, there's the possibility of Force Storms attacking a character when on Tython. There's also the lure of going full light or dark side. Any Light or Dark Side hot spot will exert greater influence upon a Je'daii than a Jedi or a Dark Sider/Sith. The dangers are greater to them and if they make the wrong choice they can slide easily to one side or the other. That all falls under the purview of the GM though.

All drawbacks are at the GM's discretion?

All drawbacks are at the GM's discretion?

Yes, with input from the players.

What would a typical Light side drawback be? And are any of these permanent or semi-permanent, or are they all contextual and/or temporary? In what form does these drawbacks come?

What would a typical Light side drawback be? And are any of these permanent or semi-permanent, or are they all contextual and/or temporary? In what form does these drawbacks come?

Fall too far to the dark side and the character would be unable to make Grey Side pips plus lose all the benefits for being balanced. They aren't permanent since it's tied to how balanced a character is. It is a continual struggle to maintain someone's balance. Other drawbacks would be whispers from the Je'daii is meeting someone about their past actions like slaughtering an entire village etc...

Ok, so no actual drawback, you just lose the stat bonus, strain bonus, wound bonus and the ability to ignore the dark/light side by putting them together ... where's the drawback to that collection of beardy goodness?

With the loss of the random element, there's a problem with how much movement there is on that scale. It becomes all choice, no Force, just choice. Hence the loss of these bonuses will too easily be very unlikely.

The loss of not being able to use "grey" side pips and losing a +1 to a characteristic, and the wound and strain thing, is not a drawback, that's just not being a ... Grey paradoom? mesofunny... I'd drop the +1 to characteristic altogether, reduce strain and wound bonuses to +1 between -10 and -3 and +3 and +10, keep the +2 wound and strain for -2 to +2 ...

Ok, so no actual drawback, you just lose the stat bonus, strain bonus, wound bonus and the ability to ignore the dark/light side by putting them together ... where's the drawback to that collection of beardy goodness?

With the loss of the random element, there's a problem with how much movement there is on that scale. It becomes all choice, no Force, just choice. Hence the loss of these bonuses will too easily be very unlikely.

The loss of not being able to use "grey" side pips and losing a +1 to a characteristic, and the wound and strain thing, is not a drawback, that's just not being a ... Grey paradoom? mesofunny... I'd drop the +1 to characteristic altogether, reduce strain and wound bonuses to +1 between -10 and -3 and +3 and +10, keep the +2 wound and strain for -2 to +2 ...

Seems to me that you fail to understand what a drawback is. There are plenty of drawbacks for not maintaining internal balance with the Force. Yes, choice to use the Force is still using the Force. A Je'daii can fall to the light or dark side just as easily as a Jedi can fall to the dark side. The difference is that a Je'daii has a greater danger to it because they actively use the dark side. It's a part of their code and how they deal with things.

The so-called "grey" point ... why? It just seems less Star Wars with that whole Grey Jedi thing... Star Wars is black and white: slavery is bad, therefore the light side fights slavery whereas the dark side use it and demand it ... the grey side would be the extremist moderate going: a little slavery is ok, as long as it's not too much, so don't overdo it... ?

Let's ask Anakin and his mother about that bit... imagine how different things might have been if the Jedi had just incapacitated Watto and taken the parts, Anakin, and Shmi with them. But, nope, can't violate local customs... slavery's OK as long as it's part of the local laws, right, Qui-Gon?

What these Je'daii propose, and I read the comics ... sadly... is in actuality that you should act maliciously in equal amounts to unmaliciously, equal part murder-hobo and paramedic ... which ... well, doesn't make sense in my book. Anyway, I'm derailing unintentionally.

What's the deal with this "dark side = murder-hobo" thing?

Grey-siders are already accounted for in the RAW. Despite being worded as light-siders, anyone between 70 and 30 Morality is a Grey-sider. The only true light-siders are 70+ and referred to as Paragons.

Grey-siders are already accounted for in the RAW. Despite being worded as light-siders, anyone between 70 and 30 Morality is a Grey-sider. The only true light-siders are 70+ and referred to as Paragons.

Except that it doesn't account for the Je'daii Order. This answers that in regards to the actual order and provides equal benefits for being a Je'daii as there are to being a Jedi or a Sith.

Ok, so no actual drawback, you just lose the stat bonus, strain bonus, wound bonus and the ability to ignore the dark/light side by putting them together ... where's the drawback to that collection of beardy goodness?

With the loss of the random element, there's a problem with how much movement there is on that scale. It becomes all choice, no Force, just choice. Hence the loss of these bonuses will too easily be very unlikely.

The loss of not being able to use "grey" side pips and losing a +1 to a characteristic, and the wound and strain thing, is not a drawback, that's just not being a ... Grey paradoom? mesofunny... I'd drop the +1 to characteristic altogether, reduce strain and wound bonuses to +1 between -10 and -3 and +3 and +10, keep the +2 wound and strain for -2 to +2 ...

Seems to me that you fail to understand what a drawback is. There are plenty of drawbacks for not maintaining internal balance with the Force. Yes, choice to use the Force is still using the Force. A Je'daii can fall to the light or dark side just as easily as a Jedi can fall to the dark side. The difference is that a Je'daii has a greater danger to it because they actively use the dark side. It's a part of their code and how they deal with things.

Nope, I just see a mechanic that only provides one bonus it can take away. That's not a drawback. If however you were to keep the dark side-rules as per RAW, not necessarily where the character needs to flip destiny points for using dsps and take strain and an equivalent to conflict (although why not?), but where a certain ... balance threshold is met there are some drawback/perks similar to RAW and coming back to balance is less about just moving along the scale, but having to get to a certain point, kind of like redemption, but we could call it regained balance or something. And then perhaps something similar for the light side.

As it stands, there seems to be no reason to be tempted by the dark or the light, no positive or negative related to going towards either extreme.

The so-called "grey" point ... why? It just seems less Star Wars with that whole Grey Jedi thing... Star Wars is black and white: slavery is bad, therefore the light side fights slavery whereas the dark side use it and demand it ... the grey side would be the extremist moderate going: a little slavery is ok, as long as it's not too much, so don't overdo it... ?

Let's ask Anakin and his mother about that bit... imagine how different things might have been if the Jedi had just incapacitated Watto and taken the parts, Anakin, and Shmi with them. But, nope, can't violate local customs... slavery's OK as long as it's part of the local laws, right, Qui-Gon?

What these Je'daii propose, and I read the comics ... sadly... is in actuality that you should act maliciously in equal amounts to unmaliciously, equal part murder-hobo and paramedic ... which ... well, doesn't make sense in my book. Anyway, I'm derailing unintentionally.

What's the deal with this "dark side = murder-hobo" thing?

Red herring and ... meh... not worth it.

Grey-siders are already accounted for in the RAW. Despite being worded as light-siders, anyone between 70 and 30 Morality is a Grey-sider. The only true light-siders are 70+ and referred to as Paragons.

I think the problem here is a misunderstanding that there is anything called the "grey side" ... there's a reason they call them paragons and not light-siders, and that people become consumed by the dark side.

The "grey" is "simply" staying away from corruption, but not striving towards following the will of the Force, not listening to it, living a more or less normal life. When you go paragon you're striving towards representing something positive, and when you go dark it is intentionally or a side-effect of actions that are considered "evil" by this black-and-white absolute omnipotent oppressive semi-conscious deity-like Force.

I see no reason for a bonus or anything for simply balancing and not giving into the darkness or striving towards the light. Statistically you can receive 5.5 conflict every session and in the long run you'll go nowhere on the Morality scale.

Now, on the other hand I do understand that your game follows a theme and it seems to me that you're stuck on Tython or at least in that star system (at the time being). With such limitations and following a theme based on the comic books (and that novel they wrote set in that era) I get it, it's going to be quite different in many ways. And as I've said earlier, I don't think this would be extremely game breaking.

Except that it doesn't account for the Je'daii Order. This answers that in regards to the actual order and provides equal benefits for being a Je'daii as there are to being a Jedi or a Sith.

The only bonuses are for being a Dark-sider and a Paragon! Neither of which are specific to Jedi or Sith. You are applying a bonus based solely on a belief system/organization. Their is not a single mechanical benefit for declaring yourself a Jedi or Sith.

I think the problem here is a misunderstanding that there is anything called the "grey side" ... there's a reason they call them paragons and not light-siders, and that people become consumed by the dark side.

The "grey" is "simply" staying away from corruption, but not striving towards following the will of the Force, not listening to it, living a more or less normal life. When you go paragon you're striving towards representing something positive, and when you go dark it is intentionally or a side-effect of actions that are considered "evil" by this black-and-white absolute omnipotent oppressive semi-conscious deity-like Force.

I see no reason for a bonus or anything for simply balancing and not giving into the darkness or striving towards the light. Statistically you can receive 5.5 conflict every session and in the long run you'll go nowhere on the Morality scale.

Now, on the other hand I do understand that your game follows a theme and it seems to me that you're stuck on Tython or at least in that star system (at the time being). With such limitations and following a theme based on the comic books (and that novel they wrote set in that era) I get it, it's going to be quite different in many ways. And as I've said earlier, I don't think this would be extremely game breaking.

The term "Grey-sider" is just a term meant to delineate them from true dark side and light side adherents. You're correct that there is no "Grey Side" of the Force. However, your interpretation of the Force as some "absolute omnipotent oppressive semi-conscious deity-like Force" is fundamentally wrong. The Force has two primary beliefs:

The Living Force theory is that the energy of the Force has clear Light and Dark sides to it. They are the equivalent of two sides of one coin. Most Jedi followed this theory.

The Unifying Force theory was that the energy of the Force is completely neutral. A lot of Sith (including Palpatine) followed this theory. This means the Sith weren't evil they were just using the Force as a tool to accomplish their objectives. Interestingly enough, Darth Plagueis (Palpatine's master) had conducted considerable research and determined there was clear and obvious distinctions between the Light and Dark sides.

I do agree that mechanical bonuses for an "belief"/organization are not a good idea. I mean, are we going to give Smugglers a +1 Strain & +1 Wound Threshold because he decided to work for the Hutts? How about a +3 Wound Threshold for being a member of the Black Suns?

EDIT: Just based on how the force point system works, the game seems to follow more closely to the Living Force's belief system.

It's all just fantastic religions and their dogmas. Other than the Force existing and having something of a feedback loop with one's emotions and intent, nothing's for certain. The Jedi, the Sith, the Nightsisters, the Sorcerers of Tund, the Aing-Tii, the Gand Findsmen, etc, etc... all just blind men trying to describe the elephant.

It's all just fantastic religions and their dogmas. Other than the Force existing and having something of a feedback loop with ones emotions and intent, nothing's for certain. The Jedi, the Sith, the Nightsisters, the Sorcerers of Tund, the Aing-Tii, etc, etc... all just blind men trying to describe the elephant.

Absolutely! My concern though is the OP is apparently trying to give bonuses based on just being a follower of one of those religions/dogma's/organizations.

Okay, so here is my suggestion. Rather than come up with a complex set of rules just change the parameters when dealing with Morality bonuses. Give Jed'aii the Paragon bonus if the PC's Morality stays between 35 and 65 and treat going above 70 or below 30 essentially the same as reaching the Dark Side Threshold.

Conflict will need to be looked at because it's heavily skewed to gaining Light Side points so instead of rolling a D10 make it a D6. You'll probably also want to adjust how you give Conflict a little so the PC has a bit more latitude in their actions but keep the points given about the same as currently suggested in the CRB.

Mechanically I don't see a need to do anything else or add any special Talents and such. Everything should, with some creative narration, work the same. This way you don't have to deal with unintended balance issues.

It's all just fantastic religions and their dogmas. Other than the Force existing and having something of a feedback loop with ones emotions and intent, nothing's for certain. The Jedi, the Sith, the Nightsisters, the Sorcerers of Tund, the Aing-Tii, etc, etc... all just blind men trying to describe the elephant.

Absolutely! My concern though is the OP is apparently trying to give bonuses based on just being a follower of one of those religions/dogma's/organizations.

And on the flip side, there are those who want to take Jedi dogma as the entire truth about the Force (Jedi dogma that was contradicted within the very movies themselves, it stands to note) and keep trying to assert the same bizarro blue-and-orange morality that plagued some part of the EU/Legends and the older RPGs as objective in-setting Truth.