Can't you just slap an Ion Pulse Missile on a Z-95 with Guidance Chips and get sort of a Rebel/Scum Crackshot ship out of it? Ion Pulses don't require the expenditure of the TL and with Chips that's pretty good.

Since 2 attack dice ships are obsolete, wouldn't a ~40 point Xizor be better off with 4 of these instead of 5 bare Z's?

That's not even taking into account the control they offer. If you're willing to spend more points you can go for more expensive Missiles, Advanced Homing Missiles for the same cost (you know 6 of these ******* toting AHM's could do a lot of work), Concussions, regular Homing Missiles, etc. Also, the Scum ones can take Illicts, chief among them Glitterstim. PS bids to Tala or Black Sun also only cost one point.

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Getting Target Locks is still the issue, and a damage cap makes them pretty much the opposite of crack squadrons. Not that the control isn't impressive.

Two attack isn't invalid if the ship's cheap, it was terrible on the advanced because it's base cost was 21.

ORDNANCEWING TOO OP PLS BAN

If you look through my posting history - even though I've argued quite strongly for ordnance fixes on several occasions - I have always tempered it by saying what you just said

Can't you just slap an Ion Pulse Missile on a Z-95 with Guidance Chips and get sort of a Rebel/Scum Crackshot ship out of it? Ion Pulses don't require the expenditure of the TL and with Chips that's pretty good.

Since 2 attack dice ships are obsolete, wouldn't a ~40 point Xizor be better off with 4 of these instead of 5 bare Z's?

That's not even taking into account the control they offer. If you're willing to spend more points you can go for more expensive Missiles, Advanced Homing Missiles for the same cost (you know 6 of these ******* toting AHM's could do a lot of work), Concussions, regular Homing Missiles, etc. Also, the Scum ones can take Illicts, chief among them Glitterstim. PS bids to Tala or Black Sun also only cost one point.

ORDNANCEWING TOO OP PLS BAN

The first problem is that 2 attack ships are most certainly NOT obsolete. By any means. You don't spend 12 points and expect to get 3 attack, thats ludicrous.

Getting Target Locks is still the issue, and a damage cap makes them pretty much the opposite of crack squadrons. Not that the control isn't impressive.

Against Poe you have a good chance of punching a damage through and ionizing. Being ionized forces a non-green manuever, which prevents R2-D2 from triggering. His dice are capped at 2 as long as you're unstressed.

Getting one on a Soontir that is stressed punshes him next turn. Good luck ever hitting non-bumped Soontir though.

You face a fat turret and oh look, blam 2 ion tokens.

It's pretty useful, and often Crackshot is spent just to push a single damage through anyways.

The problem is and I've tried on different occasions is they move first then your opponent, who then gets to shoot, and oh one is dead and none of the others managed to get a tl.

Next round I got a tl, but one is dead again before it got to shoot and the other doesn't have a shot

Can't you just slap an Ion Pulse Missile on a Z-95 with Guidance Chips and get sort of a Rebel/Scum Crackshot ship out of it? Ion Pulses don't require the expenditure of the TL and with Chips that's pretty good.

Since 2 attack dice ships are obsolete, wouldn't a ~40 point Xizor be better off with 4 of these instead of 5 bare Z's?

That's not even taking into account the control they offer. If you're willing to spend more points you can go for more expensive Missiles, Advanced Homing Missiles for the same cost (you know 6 of these ******* toting AHM's could do a lot of work), Concussions, regular Homing Missiles, etc. Also, the Scum ones can take Illicts, chief among them Glitterstim. PS bids to Tala or Black Sun also only cost one point.

ORDNANCEWING TOO OP PLS BAN

The first problem is that 2 attack ships are most certainly NOT obsolete. By any means. You don't spend 12 points and expect to get 3 attack, thats ludicrous.

No, but I spend 60 points on 2 attack dice ships and expect to get 60 points of use from them and that's not the case. 5 TIE Fighters cannot kill a 60 point Han or Super Dash. 4 of them cannot kill a 48 point Super Corran. 3 of them cannot kill a Fel or Poe.

But 4 Crack Squadrons? 4 Ion Pulse Chimp Bandits? Well now we're talking. Now we have some utility and damage potential instead of a single extra soap bubble.

I get so much **** for saying that 2 attack dice are obsolete. Why? They clearly are, every **** squad has Poe or Soontir in it. Good luck ever damaging them with 2 attack dice. I had to argue that the Phantom and Turretwing were broken too, so I don't know why I expected reason this time when I said 2 attack dice were obsolete.

Can't you just slap an Ion Pulse Missile on a Z-95 with Guidance Chips and get sort of a Rebel/Scum Crackshot ship out of it? Ion Pulses don't require the expenditure of the TL and with Chips that's pretty good.

Since 2 attack dice ships are obsolete, wouldn't a ~40 point Xizor be better off with 4 of these instead of 5 bare Z's?

That's not even taking into account the control they offer. If you're willing to spend more points you can go for more expensive Missiles, Advanced Homing Missiles for the same cost (you know 6 of these ******* toting AHM's could do a lot of work), Concussions, regular Homing Missiles, etc. Also, the Scum ones can take Illicts, chief among them Glitterstim. PS bids to Tala or Black Sun also only cost one point.

ORDNANCEWING TOO OP PLS BAN

The first problem is that 2 attack ships are most certainly NOT obsolete. By any means. You don't spend 12 points and expect to get 3 attack, thats ludicrous.

No, but I spend 60 points on 2 attack dice ships and expect to get 60 points of use from them and that's not the case. 5 TIE Fighters cannot kill a 60 point Han or Super Dash. 4 of them cannot kill a 48 point Super Corran. 3 of them cannot kill a Fel or Poe.

But 4 Crack Squadrons? 4 Ion Pulse Chimp Bandits? Well now we're talking. Now we have some utility and damage potential instead of a single extra soap bubble.

I get so much **** for saying that 2 attack dice are obsolete. Why? They clearly are, every **** squad has Poe or Soontir in it. Good luck ever damaging them with 2 attack dice. I had to argue that the Phantom and Turretwing were broken too, so I don't know why I expected reason this time when I said 2 attack dice were obsolete.

This game is all about positioning.

I once took out a fully health Han with 4 ties.

He killed echo, I took out his y and whatever else he had forget now, and my ties were in perfect position to block Han.

Managed to do that a few turns.

In the end it was only Howlrunner and Han left and Howlrunner scored the final hit.

So to say 5 ties can't beat a fat Han is untrue.

Anything can happen in this game. Depending on where everything is you may or may not have a chance, even then it's the dice who will decide in the end.

If only they could carry Long Range Sensors.

If only they could carry Long Range Sensors.

True. LRS is great on any ordnance that doesn't require you to spend a TL. In fact its superior to GCs.

I do like the idea of a IPM swarm. You can always stagger your missile firing and keep a target ion'd for a while.

You could fly 4 IPM Chimp Squadrons with a VI Autothrusters R2-D2 Poe for 98 points. Going to 100 seems risky for initiative. One IPM can be subbed for tracers, R5-P9 can be subbed in.

I'd want to fit weapons guidance on poe for a little extra punch. With IPM's you may know where your opponent is going to so keeping the focus for defense won't be neccesary.

No crack; not enough shot

I get so much **** for saying that 2 attack dice are obsolete. Why? They clearly are, every **** squad has Poe or Soontir in it. Good luck ever damaging them with 2 attack dice. I had to argue that the Phantom and Turretwing were broken too, so I don't know why I expected reason this time when I said 2 attack dice were obsolete.

Cracks:

don't require TL

CAN push through aces

Can force ace to spend tokens fearing DAT CRIT

Cheaper

Nope, not Crack enough to beat Black Crack

Since 2 attack dice ships are obsolete, wouldn't a ~40 point Xizor be better off with 4 of these instead of 5 bare Z's?

For scum, 2-dice attack ships aren't obsolete - at least, Z-95s aren't - because feedback array is available. Frankly, I'd far rather have 4 headhunters with feedback arrays than 5 without, but they're still **** effective; against anything vulnerable to 2-dice attacks (decimators, y-wings, etc) they can easily pull their weight. Against something that can't, they become a moving minefield of range 1 'zap zones' that aces like fel and vader have trouble avoiding.

For rebels, then yes, guidance chips is the obvious modification for a Z-95, especially with access to Blount with XX-23s or Cracken to let generic pilots set up target locks on higher PS opponents.

I'd still like to try 8 generic Z-95s at some point, but I suspect missiles will do you better for the rebels; rebel z-95s have a PS advantage in return for their lack of illicit slots - that pairs well with a heavy missile barrage to blow away a generic twin laser turret carrier (or whatever) before it gets to shoot.

Since 2 attack dice ships are obsolete, wouldn't a ~40 point Xizor be better off with 4 of these instead of 5 bare Z's?

For scum, 2-dice attack ships aren't obsolete - at least, Z-95s aren't - because feedback array is available. Frankly, I'd far rather have 4 headhunters with feedback arrays than 5 without, but they're still **** effective; against anything vulnerable to 2-dice attacks (decimators, y-wings, etc) they can easily pull their weight. Against something that can't, they become a moving minefield of range 1 'zap zones' that aces like fel and vader have trouble avoiding.

For rebels, then yes, guidance chips is the obvious modification for a Z-95, especially with access to Blount with XX-23s or Cracken to let generic pilots set up target locks on higher PS opponents.

I'd still like to try 8 generic Z-95s at some point, but I suspect missiles will do you better for the rebels; rebel z-95s have a PS advantage in return for their lack of illicit slots - that pairs well with a heavy missile barrage to blow away a generic twin laser turret carrier (or whatever) before it gets to shoot.

A Z-95 with Feedback I wouldn't consider obsolete for the same reason I don't consider Crack Squadrons or 2 attack juke ships obsolete or accuracy corrector advances/punishers, they have an upgrade that allows them to actually damage something with their 2 attack dice.

What I'm talking about is running a list that's 48 point Corran and 4 Talas. The Talas end up doing absolutely nothing against Acewing lists.

Since 2 attack dice ships are obsolete, wouldn't a ~40 point Xizor be better off with 4 of these instead of 5 bare Z's?

For scum, 2-dice attack ships aren't obsolete - at least, Z-95s aren't - because feedback array is available. Frankly, I'd far rather have 4 headhunters with feedback arrays than 5 without, but they're still **** effective; against anything vulnerable to 2-dice attacks (decimators, y-wings, etc) they can easily pull their weight. Against something that can't, they become a moving minefield of range 1 'zap zones' that aces like fel and vader have trouble avoiding.

For rebels, then yes, guidance chips is the obvious modification for a Z-95, especially with access to Blount with XX-23s or Cracken to let generic pilots set up target locks on higher PS opponents.

I'd still like to try 8 generic Z-95s at some point, but I suspect missiles will do you better for the rebels; rebel z-95s have a PS advantage in return for their lack of illicit slots - that pairs well with a heavy missile barrage to blow away a generic twin laser turret carrier (or whatever) before it gets to shoot.

A Z-95 with Feedback I wouldn't consider obsolete for the same reason I don't consider Crack Squadrons or 2 attack juke ships obsolete or accuracy corrector advances/punishers, they have an upgrade that allows them to actually damage something with their 2 attack dice.

What I'm talking about is running a list that's 48 point Corran and 4 Talas. The Talas end up doing absolutely nothing against Acewing lists.

why 4 talas when you can take these guys

and look at the enemy's ace eyes fill with tears of joy!

*actually that's the main question about taking jousters now. why them when turret can outdamage them?

No, but I spend 60 points on 2 attack dice ships and expect to get 60 points of use from them and that's not the case. 5 TIE Fighters cannot kill a 60 point Han or Super Dash. 4 of them cannot kill a 48 point Super Corran. 3 of them cannot kill a Fel or Poe.

And yet I've seen those situations end in the TIE Fighters' favour on many occasions.

Your problem is that you let your attitude throw the match before you even sit down.

Your problem is that you let your attitude throw the match before you even sit down.

So say we all.

It is known.

Hear hear!

For ion pulse i'd just use blount...

Still, for a second ion pulse not a bad idea.

*actually that's the main question about taking jousters now. why them when turret can outdamage them?

I'd say it's because at short ranges TLTs don't out-damage them at all. Good jousters do part-time service as blockers, a job that Y-wings and HWKs are not well-suited for. The close-range block-and-tackle can take out any ace in the game, or force the aces to bail out into a non-threatening flight line. TLT carriers lack both the maneuverability and the firepower to do this. Comparing a TIE Fighter to a TLT, their respective damage geometries are almost the inverse of each other (great up close, lousy at range vs great at range, terrible up close), so the battle between them will be almost entirely dominated by who maneuvers better.

I think id rather take feedback arrays.

Do Warpman and ParaGoomba live anywhere close to one another? (assuming they are different people?) Cuz, you two could just play each other with 8 Ties vs 8 Z-95's over and over and try to be happy and enjoy life. I'd even pitch in $5 for gas money. You guys must be great fun to play against...

You probably have a point that a handful of 2 red dice mooks have a hard time putting damage through against a tokened up ace. But the game is 100pts vs 100pts. Not 48 vs 48 or whatever arbitrary combination you declare is auto-lose. You better bring some extra bodies and block like crazy.

As to the original topic. I predict Guidance Chimps will be about as far out on the ordnance limb that FFG will be able to go. Much more of a boost will lead to alpha strike games AKA Yahtzee! with plastic models.

edit: superfluouss "s"

Do Warpman and ParaGoomba live anywhere close to one another? (assuming they are different people?) Cuz, you two could just play each other with 8 Ties vs 8 Z-95's over and over and try to be happy and enjoy life. I'd even pitch in $5 for gas money. You guys must be great fun to play against...

You probably have a point that a handful of 2 red dice mooks have a hard time putting damage through against a tokened up ace. But the game is 100pts vs 100pts. Not 48 vs 48 or whatever arbitrary combination you declare is auto-lose. You better bring some extra bodies and block like crazy.

guess who doesn't like Z-95s like AT ALL?

and thinks that KKKKK list is the most beautiful MEATBAG list out there?