Honestly, I never understood the appeal of caustic reviewers

I blame the 90's, we had so much snark back then.

I graduated HS in 1992, and I find myself constantly having to dial back the snark and at least try to post like a grown-up.

I blame thin skinned, pathetic millennials for not being able to take a little bit of snark and ruining the fun for everyone. I mean seriously if you can not make at least fun of a bad situation which you can not change, what would be the point of talking about it? It like saying you can not make fun about Obama just because you are in Guantanamo.

Giving Enworld the once over, I have the sneaking suspicion that the question "Can anyone recommend a system for a mid-to-low-magic fantasy campaign, with no classes and no levels" would go over well... seems pretty D&D/Pathfinder-centric.

There's a lot of very experienced folk there so as long as you posted in an appropriate forum I think you'd get some useful information.

Giving Enworld the once over, I have the sneaking suspicion that the question "Can anyone recommend a system for a mid-to-low-magic fantasy campaign, with no classes and no levels" would go over well... seems pretty D&D/Pathfinder-centric.

There's a lot of very experienced folk there so as long as you posted in an appropriate forum I think you'd get some useful information.

Posted the request for help, we'll see what comes of it.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?484920-Looking-For-a-System-%28and-I-have-a-forum-question%29

Angry has thrown in the towel, hung up his hat.

Angry has thrown in the towel, hung up his hat.

????

Angry has thrown in the towel, hung up his hat.

He still has his blog. And he still writes the "GM Word of the Week" on Mad Adventurers, which has none of the schtick and is usually pretty interesting.

So I'm not sure what you mean.

Angry has thrown in the towel, hung up his hat.

He still has his blog. And he still writes the "GM Word of the Week" on Mad Adventurers, which has none of the schtick and is usually pretty interesting.

So I'm not sure what you mean.

I read somewhere (possibly his blog) that he was hanging up his Angry Hat too. I think it's just for that persona, not for gaming writing in general.

Reading through quite a few of AngryGM's other articles, I came across this:

http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-ill-keep-my-d20/

Regarding this section:

Having run a bunch of Star Wars (and the Warhammer game before it) and also having watched a bunch of games being run, the first and most important thing to note is that the mere act of building the dice pool is a major break in the flow of the game. And I don’t just mean that it’s time consuming. It IS time consuming.

But more importantly, players tend to look at the dice pool and modify their action based on the dice pool. “oh, man, that’s a lot of difficulty dice, I’ll do this to add an advantage die.” There’s a lot of talk about the dice and the action that creates the die roll is constantly being edited until the dice pool is to the character’s liking. Now, I admit that every game has some of that. D&D has its share of “I’ll take a penalty? Then I’ll move over there before I fire” crap too. But gaming the dice pool becomes a MAJOR activity. And that means people are playing the dice instead of the action.

My question is, does this match the experiences of people here?

A little late to the convo, but yeah I still get this quite a bit in the game I run. Lots of spending time adjusting the die pool. Most of the time it is just one player, but frequently the other players do it too. We regularly have a single combat session that will last the entire 5 hours of play and/or over multiple game sessions. They are fun and interesting combats due to the nature of the dice but quick and cinematic they are not.

I play in a D&D 5e game and we can blaze through 2 significant combat sessions in our 4 hours of play.

It's left me as the GM racking my brain for ways to speed things up in the FFG system.

A little late to the convo, but yeah I still get this quite a bit in the game I run. Lots of spending time adjusting the die pool. Most of the time it is just one player, but frequently the other players do it too. We regularly have a single combat session that will last the entire 5 hours of play and/or over multiple game sessions. They are fun and interesting combats due to the nature of the dice but quick and cinematic they are not.

I play in a D&D 5e game and we can blaze through 2 significant combat sessions in our 4 hours of play.

It's left me as the GM racking my brain for ways to speed things up in the FFG system.

Not at all too late.

I think the players might be abusing your generous nature by allowing them to keep fishing for The Best Answer. It's been my experience that combats infrequently last more than a handful of rounds in this system, but I'll admit I didn't always have heavy firefights. Is there a lot of kibbitzing while they decide how to write the story going forward, or are they trying to optimize the dice pool?

On the one hand, you're all having fun so this isn't really a problem, but I do agree 5 hours is a bit excessive. One could argue that this hampers the story creation process.

I guess thats just it really, if the only combat had in that system is "kill them all" then it can take some time.

This session, we had three combats over an 7 hour session during the evac of hoth; The first was a short and brutal encounter with a super Stormtrooper and a couple of squads; the second a more direct battle in a med centre, and the third Vader and 5 squads of stormtroopers who was after a force artefact, and was very insistent on getting past. He succeeded in his goal, but ended up getting hit by an Ion turret on the way out, which explains his foul mood for much of the following events. XD Only the latter lasted about 2 hours, because of the direct difficulty Vaders sheer power and how to escape.

Reading through quite a few of AngryGM's other articles, I came across this:

http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-ill-keep-my-d20/

Regarding this section:

Having run a bunch of Star Wars (and the Warhammer game before it) and also having watched a bunch of games being run, the first and most important thing to note is that the mere act of building the dice pool is a major break in the flow of the game. And I don’t just mean that it’s time consuming. It IS time consuming.

But more importantly, players tend to look at the dice pool and modify their action based on the dice pool. “oh, man, that’s a lot of difficulty dice, I’ll do this to add an advantage die.” There’s a lot of talk about the dice and the action that creates the die roll is constantly being edited until the dice pool is to the character’s liking. Now, I admit that every game has some of that. D&D has its share of “I’ll take a penalty? Then I’ll move over there before I fire” crap too. But gaming the dice pool becomes a MAJOR activity. And that means people are playing the dice instead of the action.

My question is, does this match the experiences of people here?

A little late to the convo, but yeah I still get this quite a bit in the game I run. Lots of spending time adjusting the die pool. Most of the time it is just one player, but frequently the other players do it too. We regularly have a single combat session that will last the entire 5 hours of play and/or over multiple game sessions. They are fun and interesting combats due to the nature of the dice but quick and cinematic they are not.

I play in a D&D 5e game and we can blaze through 2 significant combat sessions in our 4 hours of play.

It's left me as the GM racking my brain for ways to speed things up in the FFG system.

What are you doing? Doing mass combat without the mass combat rules? Or not grouping minions up and require your PC to kill each minion individually instead of just shooting the group and killing a bunch of minions with each roll?

A little late to the convo, but yeah I still get this quite a bit in the game I run. Lots of spending time adjusting the die pool. Most of the time it is just one player, but frequently the other players do it too. We regularly have a single combat session that will last the entire 5 hours of play and/or over multiple game sessions. They are fun and interesting combats due to the nature of the dice but quick and cinematic they are not.

I play in a D&D 5e game and we can blaze through 2 significant combat sessions in our 4 hours of play.

It's left me as the GM racking my brain for ways to speed things up in the FFG system.

Not at all too late.

I think the players might be abusing your generous nature by allowing them to keep fishing for The Best Answer. It's been my experience that combats infrequently last more than a handful of rounds in this system, but I'll admit I didn't always have heavy firefights. Is there a lot of kibbitzing while they decide how to write the story going forward, or are they trying to optimize the dice pool?

On the one hand, you're all having fun so this isn't really a problem, but I do agree 5 hours is a bit excessive. One could argue that this hampers the story creation process.

The current combat encounter has taken ~10 hours so far, 2 sessions. It's still not over.

I'd say its a little bit of:

20% - having no idea what to do

30% - trying to come up with creative story

50% - trying to optimize the dice pool

As GM I have taken on the responsibility of "having no idea what to do" for my players by freely offering up information and direction for them to go. I hate it because it makes me feel like I'm taking away their agency but they just do not seem to have any idea as to how to end an encounter other than "kill them all".

I guess thats just it really, if the only combat had in that system is "kill them all" then it can take some time.

This session, we had three combats over an 7 hour session during the evac of hoth; The first was a short and brutal encounter with a super Stormtrooper and a couple of squads; the second a more direct battle in a med centre, and the third Vader and 5 squads of stormtroopers who was after a force artefact, and was very insistent on getting past. He succeeded in his goal, but ended up getting hit by an Ion turret on the way out, which explains his foul mood for much of the following events. XD Only the latter lasted about 2 hours, because of the direct difficulty Vaders sheer power and how to escape.

We've been playing for 2+ years and I am STILL trying to wean them off of "kill them all". Unfortunately introducing other tasks in the combat encounter like: slice these controls, time limit to get something done, etc... only seems to drag out the encounter. They will only ever focus on the one task over all others. If they are slicing something and bad guys show up they stop slicing and start fighting.

Reading through quite a few of AngryGM's other articles, I came across this:

http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-ill-keep-my-d20/

Regarding this section:

Having run a bunch of Star Wars (and the Warhammer game before it) and also having watched a bunch of games being run, the first and most important thing to note is that the mere act of building the dice pool is a major break in the flow of the game. And I don’t just mean that it’s time consuming. It IS time consuming.

But more importantly, players tend to look at the dice pool and modify their action based on the dice pool. “oh, man, that’s a lot of difficulty dice, I’ll do this to add an advantage die.” There’s a lot of talk about the dice and the action that creates the die roll is constantly being edited until the dice pool is to the character’s liking. Now, I admit that every game has some of that. D&D has its share of “I’ll take a penalty? Then I’ll move over there before I fire” crap too. But gaming the dice pool becomes a MAJOR activity. And that means people are playing the dice instead of the action.

My question is, does this match the experiences of people here?

A little late to the convo, but yeah I still get this quite a bit in the game I run. Lots of spending time adjusting the die pool. Most of the time it is just one player, but frequently the other players do it too. We regularly have a single combat session that will last the entire 5 hours of play and/or over multiple game sessions. They are fun and interesting combats due to the nature of the dice but quick and cinematic they are not.

I play in a D&D 5e game and we can blaze through 2 significant combat sessions in our 4 hours of play.

It's left me as the GM racking my brain for ways to speed things up in the FFG system.

What are you doing? Doing mass combat without the mass combat rules? Or not grouping minions up and require your PC to kill each minion individually instead of just shooting the group and killing a bunch of minions with each roll?

Of course not. I am however introducing several types of baddies for them to fight in an encounter. Current encounter has them facing off against Rival Security droids with Riot Shields, standard minion security droids, and Rival K-9 security guard dogs. These PCs are at 1000 xp and 3 of them can wipe out almost a whole group of 5 minions in one hit. So conceivably it shouldn't really take that long.

The current combat encounter has taken ~10 hours so far, 2 sessions. It's still not over.

I'd say its a little bit of:

20% - having no idea what to do

30% - trying to come up with creative story

50% - trying to optimize the dice pool

As GM I have taken on the responsibility of "having no idea what to do" for my players by freely offering up information and direction for them to go. I hate it because it makes me feel like I'm taking away their agency but they just do not seem to have any idea as to how to end an encounter other than "kill them all".

So it sounds like you're addressing your side of the issue pretty well - e.g. guiding them softly to some options without railroading them. I think offering them choices doesn't take away their agency as long as they get to choose. This kind of problem is common in sand boxes, so one technique I use is to give them a little bit to kibbitz about it but then I up the ante somehow - maybe a speeder crash nearby, or an argument at a nearby shop, something like that, something that can break them out of their reverie and move one of the plots along just a little.

Seems like gaming the system is the biggest issue, and that's not unique to this system. I think allowing them to refactor once or twice is okay, but anything beyond that costs them time in game while they fiddlefart around trying to get the most boost dice. Firstly you could ask them to stop it, since handling a metagame problem in-game isn't ideal or fun usually. Secondly, you could take control of the dice and the dice pool, then push dice across to them once they determine an action. Once the dice are pushed, there's not really much more fiddling except for a random Boost/Setback. However, if your table is like mine, everyone has their own dice so it's hard to control this and it does feel a bit draconian.

In the end, if you're all having fun then maybe it's not a problem. I know as GM it can be frustrating to put all this effort into prep every week, only to have the PCs not keep pace with your vision for the story, but that's okay - it's their story too. I view this as a boon since I can refactor what's coming up with more time to do it, but I too try to drive the story along because I think that leads to greater enjoyment for all. I know for a fact that having months to pick over potential story beats has made the story that much better.

We've been playing for 2+ years and I am STILL trying to wean them off of "kill them all".

If they've succeeded with the "kill them all" approach, then the opposition hasn't been overwhelming enough. For my group, the opposition is almost always overwhelming, running away has become part of the plan.

Unfortunately introducing other tasks in the combat encounter like: slice these controls, time limit to get something done, etc... only seems to drag out the encounter. They will only ever focus on the one task over all others. If they are slicing something and bad guys show up they stop slicing and start fighting.

How does that work? If there is a time limit, and they ignore it to fight, then they failed. If this kind of failure doesn't compromise their goals, then it wasn't really a failure. It sounds like they aren't taking these goals seriously.

You always have to keep asking "why is the fight continuing?" Most people don't want to die. If your NPCs are always fighting to the last then that seems a bit unrealistic. Not every encounter is a last stand after all. What is the objective and can your NPCs accomplish it some other way. Perhaps the should retreat and alert backup forces. Perhaps they should surrender (and then try to escape...) Endless combat has to get old.

The current combat encounter has taken ~10 hours so far, 2 sessions. It's still not over.

I'd say its a little bit of:

20% - having no idea what to do

30% - trying to come up with creative story

50% - trying to optimize the dice pool

As GM I have taken on the responsibility of "having no idea what to do" for my players by freely offering up information and direction for them to go. I hate it because it makes me feel like I'm taking away their agency but they just do not seem to have any idea as to how to end an encounter other than "kill them all".

So it sounds like you're addressing your side of the issue pretty well - e.g. guiding them softly to some options without railroading them. I think offering them choices doesn't take away their agency as long as they get to choose. This kind of problem is common in sand boxes, so one technique I use is to give them a little bit to kibbitz about it but then I up the ante somehow - maybe a speeder crash nearby, or an argument at a nearby shop, something like that, something that can break them out of their reverie and move one of the plots along just a little.

Seems like gaming the system is the biggest issue, and that's not unique to this system. I think allowing them to refactor once or twice is okay, but anything beyond that costs them time in game while they fiddlefart around trying to get the most boost dice. Firstly you could ask them to stop it, since handling a metagame problem in-game isn't ideal or fun usually. Secondly, you could take control of the dice and the dice pool, then push dice across to them once they determine an action. Once the dice are pushed, there's not really much more fiddling except for a random Boost/Setback. However, if your table is like mine, everyone has their own dice so it's hard to control this and it does feel a bit draconian.

In the end, if you're all having fun then maybe it's not a problem. I know as GM it can be frustrating to put all this effort into prep every week, only to have the PCs not keep pace with your vision for the story, but that's okay - it's their story too. I view this as a boon since I can refactor what's coming up with more time to do it, but I too try to drive the story along because I think that leads to greater enjoyment for all. I know for a fact that having months to pick over potential story beats has made the story that much better.

It's starting to wear on my enjoyment. However, I am stubborn so I'll never quit trying. I take much of the onus as far as the success of a game so it's difficult not to take it personally. I also am very VERY generous with the leeway on a lot of things. Mostly because I am STILL trying to break these players of their binary d20 habits. The last session however truly tested my patience and I was much more strict. I was also hoped up on pain meds and in lots of pain so I can blame it on that.

We've been playing for 2+ years and I am STILL trying to wean them off of "kill them all".

If they've succeeded with the "kill them all" approach, then the opposition hasn't been overwhelming enough. For my group, the opposition is almost always overwhelming, running away has become part of the plan.

Unfortunately introducing other tasks in the combat encounter like: slice these controls, time limit to get something done, etc... only seems to drag out the encounter. They will only ever focus on the one task over all others. If they are slicing something and bad guys show up they stop slicing and start fighting.

How does that work? If there is a time limit, and they ignore it to fight, then they failed. If this kind of failure doesn't compromise their goals, then it wasn't really a failure. It sounds like they aren't taking these goals seriously.

I have to be very explicit that they have no hope of winning to get these guys to even consider running away. They will continue to fight until they start dropping and at that point it is sometimes too late. I have 0 problems challenging the PCs, but getting them to run and conserve resources is not a strategy they consider, ever. Which is why all of their PCs are currently captured and we are running side PCs to come rescue them.

It's not that they aren't taking objectives seriously, I think it is more that they adhere to the objective in lieu of any and everything else. They have been successful against overwhelming odds because they barrel through with sheer brute force instead of considering more efficient methods. This has had significant in-game problems for them. They have lost work, allies, and other resources because they are seen as reckless brutes. I have had friendly NPC allies tell them as much and the BBEG even tried to recruit them BECAUSE of their methods!

Since their last efforts failed and has resulted in their main characters getting captured and an ally being killed, I am going to present them with a new choice (once they all have been rescued): THEY need to decide how they want to proceed. They will have no allies except one (a scoundrel with extensive contacts), their base has been taken over by pirates, and they have no ship. If they want to join the Rebellion and bring in their contacts to the Alliance like they keep saying they want to, they are going to have to work on establishing and maintaining those relationships. But ultimately the decision is theirs.

You always have to keep asking "why is the fight continuing?" Most people don't want to die. If your NPCs are always fighting to the last then that seems a bit unrealistic. Not every encounter is a last stand after all. What is the objective and can your NPCs accomplish it some other way. Perhaps the should retreat and alert backup forces. Perhaps they should surrender (and then try to escape...) Endless combat has to get old.

Absolutely. I frequently use the One Check Combat Resolution rule.

My intention with the last encounter was for them to try to get to the location they need to get to, access the computers, and retrieve the information they need all while facing waves of enemies. That plan back-fired because the only focused on the enemies.

Next game session I will be utilizing some suggestions from this article from The Angry GM: How to Manage Combat Like a Dolphin I'll explain to them that the longer they linger in an area within this prison the more waves of droids they are going to have to face and more they are going to get worn down and potentially captured themselves. Hopefully, as I reiterate this throughout the session, will create some urgency among them. We'll see...

It's not that they aren't taking objectives seriously, I think it is more that they adhere to the objective in lieu of any and everything else. They have been successful against overwhelming odds because they barrel through with sheer brute force instead of considering more efficient methods. This has had significant in-game problems for them. They have lost work, allies, and other resources because they are seen as reckless brutes. I have had friendly NPC allies tell them as much and the BBEG even tried to recruit them BECAUSE of their methods!

This sounds to me like you're rewarding their approach. If the BBEG is asking them to join him, that's a compliment. And if they succeed "because they barrel through", then the opposition isn't tough enough. In essence, barrelling through *is* the most efficient method. Why slice a door when you can blow a hole in the wall? Why sneak around when you can mow the opposition down? I'm betting that they haven't found resources hard to come by, which might be why less expensive methods aren't appealing.

You mentioned the party was captured, and now you're using other PCs to get them out. Just MHO, but that seems to defeat the purpose of capturing them, and is a missed opportunity. Wouldn't prison be a perfect time to emphasize a leaner and more interesting approach? All they have is Brawl and their social skills, maybe some Mechanics to make a shiv. They're overwhelmingly outnumbered, and they have to see these people every day, so they either play the politics or make friends or carve out their own little domain. Maybe there's a breakout plan already in progress, but if they play too rough they'll just attract attention, which the insiders will resent.

Prison breakout is a great chance to change the tone.

It's starting to wear on my enjoyment. However, I am stubborn so I'll never quit trying. I take much of the onus as far as the success of a game so it's difficult not to take it personally. I also am very VERY generous with the leeway on a lot of things. Mostly because I am STILL trying to break these players of their binary d20 habits. The last session however truly tested my patience and I was much more strict. I was also hoped up on pain meds and in lots of pain so I can blame it on that.

I'm usually hopped up on beer, so no judgement here!

Have you tried talking to them about it and how it's making the game less fun for you? You have some very good points here and if these folks are your friends they should be open to listening to your ideas and adjusting their play style. I'm sure when you started this campaign you didn't sit down and plan for them to do all the things you've described, and while improv is fun, it's also taxing on a GM. Them ending up in prison should have been a warning shot.

On the one hand, your players like to shoot first and ask questions ... well, never it seems. If that's what entertains them, that's easy! You can always keep throwing mooks at them for them to blast up. I recall you mentioned that they're over 1000XP so there's not going to be a ton you'll be able to throw at them to truly challenge them if they've spent all that XP on combat talents, but hey, can they swim a raging river while doing it? What if they have the choice of shooting or going not over the falls behind them? What if they're having a mad speeder chase through Corellia's Crystal Swamps, where a bad roll means a lost limb? These sorts of things can certainly spice up an encounter - it's not about winning, it's about getting out alive.

I've found that 60-second hourglasses are a wonderful tool to set out in front of players and use to keep the action moving. "Every 60 seconds on that clock, more of the cliff face you're standing on falls away." That aughta butter their muffins!

Next game session I will be utilizing some suggestions from this article from The Angry GM: How to Manage Combat Like a Dolphin

This is a really good article, BTW. Creating the narrative transitions, and the urgency/exigency, are key to running a good combat. I've managed to stumble onto a few of these by accident, but I like how he dissects the process and makes it a framework.

Next game session I will be utilizing some suggestions from this article from The Angry GM: How to Manage Combat Like a Dolphin I'll explain to them that the longer they linger in an area within this prison the more waves of droids they are going to have to face and more they are going to get worn down and potentially captured themselves. Hopefully, as I reiterate this throughout the session, will create some urgency among them. We'll see...

I tried reading that article, but I got to the part where he said "I pride myself on not wasting people's time" and thought this 60-page diatribe criticizing others isn't exactly helping, haha. I'll keep at it!

Next game session I will be utilizing some suggestions from this article from The Angry GM: How to Manage Combat Like a Dolphin

This is a really good article, BTW. Creating the narrative transitions, and the urgency/exigency, are key to running a good combat. I've managed to stumble onto a few of these by accident, but I like how he dissects the process and makes it a framework.

That's roughly how I've tried to run my combats... I hate it when combat takes hours to depict less than a minute of the character's life.

I tried reading that article, but I got to the part where he said "I pride myself on not wasting people's time" and thought this 60-page diatribe criticizing others isn't exactly helping, haha. I'll keep at it!

The section about exigency and urgency were good tips, glad I powered through. I definitely encourage their use in encounters since it's not usually fun to stand there and trade blows until one side falls down.