It's 6 points because... FFG arbitrarily made it 6 points. But the discussion isn't about what printed value FFG put on the card, it is about what it is actually worth relative to everything else in the game .

I bet the designers would take exception to your use of the word "arbitrarily."

What I said was true... from a certain point of view.

(1) I think I'm expressing myself poorly, then.

I think PTL would have been widely used at 4 points. I've said, over and over again, that a 7-point TLT would have been totally acceptable to me. And there are two ways to look at that: one is that those upgrades are underpriced for what they do.

But you can turn the picture on its side and look at it this way, too: until PTL there wasn't anything in the game that did what PTL does to the action economy, and there's nothing in the game that does what TLT does in terms of both geometric coverage and that flat damage curve. And those things are so desirable that by publishing them at a particular cost, FFG is painting an X on the ground and saying "This is where the metagame is going to be located."

If FFG's intent was to render all generic ships without wave7/Raider upgrades obsolete, then they succeeded. If that was not their intent, then they got the cost wrong. Given Alex's well thought out statements about game design in general, I suspect the latter.

(2) I'm not saying cost doesn't matter. I'm saying it's not the only thing that matters, because the value of game elements is context-dependent but the game elements themselves help define context. In the current state of the X-wing system, TLT is one of the... um, this kind of math isn't my strongest suit, but it's an attractor rather than simply an element of the set.

I actually really like the unique capability that TLT has, it is very healthy for a game to have multiple facets... provided those capabilities are balanced by their cost. When you get strong capabilities and cost effectiveness, then you start getting auto-includes in list building, and a less diverse meta as a result.

You didn't like Squad Leader as a basis for comparison, so the Phantom might be a better one. I don't think TLT is as bad as the Phantom, but the problem with the Phantom wasn't exactly that it was too powerful relative to its cost. It was very beatable if you were prepared to fight it, and very difficult if you weren't.

In the same way, I think the problem isn't exactly that TLT is overpowered. It's that the effect of TLT--that flat damage curve, let alone on a turret--is a spike that hurts certain kinds of targets substantially more than others, so it pushes on the metagame harder than other game elements.

Whisper + VI/ACD/FCS is actually brutally cost efficient for PS9 if shooting first. I have MathWing 3.0 numbers that correctly model ships' full action economy, and it explains a lot about what we saw back in wave 4. Coupled with the pre-nerf decloak ability, Whisper hard-countered everything below PS9. The inevitable result was the PS bid literally getting dialed up to 11. That is how the meta responded.

In much the same way that the TIE/FO is marginally less effective than its close cousin the standard TIE/Fighter and therefore sees no real use, all generic ships are now marginally less effective than the Y-wing + TLT, so the TLT is shoving all of the generics out of the meta. It does not necessarily follow that you want to build an entire list around it (although 3 of the Top 32 lists were the identical 4x Thug Y-wings...), but it has had an appreciable and immediate effect.

Majorjuggler, even as a strong proponent of Genericwing, I have to say that the current meta that TLT shaped is far better than the one it killed off even if it's just a bunch of stupid Acewing ships.

Also I see more (non-TLT) generics in my area than I have ever seen since before the Phantom took over/Turretwing killed off Whisper and 4 TIEs. Granted, I see a **** ton of Poe & Ello/Redace/Miranda hyper "welp, autoloss turn 3" regen bull and Palp aces, but I see a generic squad or stuff like Vader and 3 Juke Comm Relay FO's occasionally. More than I saw during Turretwing. Green Squadrons with Poe is pretty good.

Judging by the Worlds Top 32 results, the proportion of generic vs named ships is almost identical as last year. The substantial difference is that almost all of the generics now have TLT or some other wave 7/Raider upgrade.

All in all, I think an appropriate summary is:

• Generic TIE Fighters used to be tier 1.
• With the combination of TLT and super high AGI targets, generic TIE Fighters became tier 1.5.
• Generic TIE/FO's are about a half-tier behind their standard 12/13 point cousins, so if the TIE/Ln is tier 1.5, then the generic TIE/FO is around tier 2.
• You can certainly still win with a tier 1.5 and 2 list, just don't expect to see it make much of an impact at the highest competitive levels.

As additional aces get introduced to the game at varying point levels, wouldn't it be natural to see generics pushed out of the game?

As additional aces get introduced to the game at varying point levels, wouldn't it be natural to see generics pushed out of the game?

I don't see why. The only difference between an Ace and a Generic is Aces have pilot abilities, which they usually pay for. Generics always have a place due to their cheapness.

As additional aces get introduced to the game at varying point levels, wouldn't it be natural to see generics pushed out of the game?

No. Only if the aces are unqualified power creep.

As additional aces get introduced to the game at varying point levels, wouldn't it be natural to see generics pushed out of the game?

I don't see why. The only difference between an Ace and a Generic is Aces have pilot abilities, which they usually pay for. Generics always have a place due to their cheapness.

I'll expand. As new ships and new aces are added to the game at varying points levels, we will see the variety of available options for a given point range grow. Generics have fewer levers to pull when balancing, and have fewer effects on the overall synergy of a list than pilots with abilities. Because of this massive increase in variety, no longer will you have a list that "has 12-14 points" that just needed a filler, because competitively you'll find a different combination of ships that doesn't need a filler ship.

I know people here seem to hate Magic: The Gathering, but the same game design principle applies: When the variety of cards to choose from when building a deck increases, the overall card quality in a deck increases. Generics are held back in my opinion by one related factor: pilot skill.

As additional aces get introduced to the game at varying point levels, wouldn't it be natural to see generics pushed out of the game?

No. Only if the aces are unqualified power creep.

Would a PS9 generic still count as a generic?

MJ, in you're professional opinion, how do you think the new ordnance stuff is going to affect this whole thing? I'm projecting stuff like TIE Bombers with Homing Missiles and LRS/GC (whichever does what you want your bombers to do) to be the Imperial equivalent of TLTs: a generic with massive, but more narrowly defined strengths. This might sound like insanity, but I actually could see LRS TIE bombers being hard counters to TLTs. For the points, they easily bump to PS4, and do massive early damage that is pretty much unavoidable to the TLTs. Two of these bombers + 50ish points of whatever Imperial ship(s) you like should trivially smoke a Y-wing in the first exchange, and likely the second, and they're a substantial threat to aces with heavily modified 4-dice shots that ignore Evade tokens. I don't know how your models deal with spike damage like that, but it seems like a pretty strong potential generic element.

4.the TAP's going to make them obsolete in any turret meta.

Ok stupid question. What's Tap's

Would a PS9 generic still count as a generic?

In my estimation, sure, as long as they aren't unique and you can take multiples of them. The highest PS we have for generics right now is PS6 Royal Guards, and PS6 Defenders in the upcoming Imperial Veterans expansion.

High PS generics end up functionally being a weird sort of hybrid ship, but the biggest differentiator is their lack of a pilot ability. I suppose in theory you could have a generic non-unique ship with a pilot ability, it just doesn't happen in X-wing.

MJ, in you're professional opinion, how do you think the new ordnance stuff is going to affect this whole thing? I'm projecting stuff like TIE Bombers with Homing Missiles and LRS/GC (whichever does what you want your bombers to do) to be the Imperial equivalent of TLTs: a generic with massive, but more narrowly defined strengths. This might sound like insanity, but I actually could see LRS TIE bombers being hard counters to TLTs. For the points, they easily bump to PS4, and do massive early damage that is pretty much unavoidable to the TLTs. Two of these bombers + 50ish points of whatever Imperial ship(s) you like should trivially smoke a Y-wing in the first exchange, and likely the second, and they're a substantial threat to aces with heavily modified 4-dice shots that ignore Evade tokens. I don't know how your models deal with spike damage like that, but it seems like a pretty strong potential generic element.

I use a different approach for valuing consumables like missiles and torpedoes. I still haven't fully gotten around to it yet despite it being in my backlog for 2+ years and likely only requiring a few hours work. Blame MathWing 3.0 and actually playing in tournaments. In the meantime I certainly haven't ruled out Long Range Scanners and Guidance Chips...

4.the TAP's going to make them obsolete in any turret meta.

Ok stupid question. What's Tap's

Would a PS9 generic still count as a generic?

In my estimation, sure, as long as they aren't unique and you can take multiples of them. The highest PS we have for generics right now is PS6 Royal Guards, and PS6 Defenders in the upcoming Imperial Veterans expansion.

High PS generics end up functionally being a weird sort of hybrid ship, but the biggest differentiator is their lack of a pilot ability. I suppose in theory you could have a generic non-unique ship with a pilot ability, it just doesn't happen in X-wing.

That being said, keeping in line with the topic, what would be the estimated cost of a PS9 generic Tie/FO, with or without EPT? Then, would people play it?

The usefulness of PS9 is directly proportional to the value of the ship it's on (with a broad definition of quality). I love the FOs, but with no pilot ability, there's not much that makes a really high PS worth paying for. Case in point, Epsilon Ace, who spends a good portion of his life at PS12. When he was spoiled, there was a chorus of "that's sort of neat", but no one lost their heads. By contrast, a TIE Defender with PS9 and an EPT, and no pilot ability would be solid gold, even without the upcoming Imperial Veteran options. A fast, PS9 HLC with Predator or Lone Wolf, dealing massive damage while matching or beating all but VI aces in PS would be amazing.

The usefulness of PS9 is directly proportional to the value of the ship it's on (with a broad definition of quality). I love the FOs, but with no pilot ability, there's not much that makes a really high PS worth paying for. Case in point, Epsilon Ace, who spends a good portion of his life at PS12. When he was spoiled, there was a chorus of "that's sort of neat", but no one lost their heads. By contrast, a TIE Defender with PS9 and an EPT, and no pilot ability would be solid gold, even without the upcoming Imperial Veteran options. A fast, PS9 HLC with Predator or Lone Wolf, dealing massive damage while matching or beating all but VI aces in PS would be amazing.

You guys are great, I'm starting to understand more and more about this game here.

I just looked at Epsilon Ace, and I'll probably start working him into some lists just to see how it works out.

Is the 2-dice attack the problem without a mitigating Pilot Ability (Omega Leader, Zeta Leader) to help manage that?

That being said, keeping in line with the topic, what would be the estimated cost of a PS9 generic Tie/FO, with or without EPT? Then, would people play it?

That's a GREAT question, and it is not even answered correctly in my MathWing 2.0 post. Part of the value is in repositioning post dial reveal at high PS, and the other part of the value is in PS-killing other ships before they fire. Both can be quantified and are considered in MathWing 3.0 and beyond, but until and unless I go public with it my lips area sealed.

The usefulness of PS9 is directly proportional to the value of the ship it's on (with a broad definition of quality). I love the FOs, but with no pilot ability, there's not much that makes a really high PS worth paying for. Case in point, Epsilon Ace, who spends a good portion of his life at PS12. When he was spoiled, there was a chorus of "that's sort of neat", but no one lost their heads.

and now imagine the situation he was TAP (boost included) and had an EPT

suddenly OP like hell XD

super-high-PS is effective with both repositioning abilities, and their complete innate lack (Wedge) means you wasted your supreme PS

Wedge can totally make his PS9 work because he's such a killer, and he denies information to lower PS repositioning aces.

slap bb-8, ptl and EU and he's Batman!

That being said, keeping in line with the topic, what would be the estimated cost of a PS9 generic Tie/FO, with or without EPT? Then, would people play it?

That's a GREAT question, and it is not even answered correctly in my MathWing 2.0 post. Part of the value is in repositioning post dial reveal at high PS, and the other part of the value is in PS-killing other ships before they fire. Both can be quantified and are considered in MathWing 3.0 and beyond, but until and unless I go public with it my lips area sealed.

You tease you.

Honestly, when I looked at the FO I was really underwhelmed. All this chatter though and I plan on playing with Omega Leader and Epsilon Ace.

I've never really been that interested in generics anyway, so I guess the meta suits me.

The usefulness of PS9 is directly proportional to the value of the ship it's on (with a broad definition of quality). I love the FOs, but with no pilot ability, there's not much that makes a really high PS worth paying for. Case in point, Epsilon Ace, who spends a good portion of his life at PS12. When he was spoiled, there was a chorus of "that's sort of neat", but no one lost their heads. By contrast, a TIE Defender with PS9 and an EPT, and no pilot ability would be solid gold, even without the upcoming Imperial Veteran options. A fast, PS9 HLC with Predator or Lone Wolf, dealing massive damage while matching or beating all but VI aces in PS would be amazing.

With an EPT, Tie FOs with high pilot skill are worth the extra points to sink into them just for the Juke advantage. With Juke, you typically get to shoot first, utilize Juke, then utilize the evade for defense. So I agree for FO without EPT, but with EPT, because of Juke, this is invalid.

The usefulness of PS9 is directly proportional to the value of the ship it's on (with a broad definition of quality). I love the FOs, but with no pilot ability, there's not much that makes a really high PS worth paying for. Case in point, Epsilon Ace, who spends a good portion of his life at PS12. When he was spoiled, there was a chorus of "that's sort of neat", but no one lost their heads. By contrast, a TIE Defender with PS9 and an EPT, and no pilot ability would be solid gold, even without the upcoming Imperial Veteran options. A fast, PS9 HLC with Predator or Lone Wolf, dealing massive damage while matching or beating all but VI aces in PS would be amazing.

With an EPT, Tie FOs with high pilot skill are worth the extra points to sink into them just for the Juke advantage. With Juke, you typically get to shoot first, utilize Juke, then utilize the evade for defense. So I agree for FO without EPT, but with EPT, because of Juke, this is invalid.

Definitely Juke + Comm Relay increases the value of a FO, so PS9 would become more useful. You are correct that high PS has sort of a double synergy with Juke.

The usefulness of PS9 is directly proportional to the value of the ship it's on (with a broad definition of quality). I love the FOs, but with no pilot ability, there's not much that makes a really high PS worth paying for. Case in point, Epsilon Ace, who spends a good portion of his life at PS12. When he was spoiled, there was a chorus of "that's sort of neat", but no one lost their heads. By contrast, a TIE Defender with PS9 and an EPT, and no pilot ability would be solid gold, even without the upcoming Imperial Veteran options. A fast, PS9 HLC with Predator or Lone Wolf, dealing massive damage while matching or beating all but VI aces in PS would be amazing.

With an EPT, Tie FOs with high pilot skill are worth the extra points to sink into them just for the Juke advantage. With Juke, you typically get to shoot first, utilize Juke, then utilize the evade for defense. So I agree for FO without EPT, but with EPT, because of Juke, this is invalid.

Definitely Juke + Comm Relay increases the value of a FO, so PS9 would become more useful. You are correct that high PS has sort of a double synergy with Juke.

Although to be fair, if with comms/juke they cost more than 25 points they start to deteriorate in value quickly. Having only 3 in a squad is unfeasible to play effectively.

At 25 points you have named tie advanced to choose from with better attack and an extra shield.

For 24 points you get two tie/ln.

At 25 points you have named tie advanced to choose from with better attack and an extra shield.

For 24 points you get two tie/ln.

Im just saying base, a high ps FO couldn't be more than 20 points.

They fit into an interesting place with the imperials competeing with the bomber and the new TAP. These are the only ships that compete in their points bracket. And all three offer something different... I have found that its dial makes it quite a nice dog fighter with the strengthof the greens making it solid against stress meta which has become a favoured thing recently.

Except they are also competing with named ties that can achieve 3 and 4 red dice and have PS and an EPT slot. Their Aces are competing against some really cost effective Advanced and the Doom Shuttle. Their Aces reach near interceptor point levels...The FOs compete with just about everything except phantoms, Defenders, and Decimators. Of those they only don't compete with the alpha strike of bombers and the weird dial of the Lambda... otherwise they're either maneuverable harriers or straight up fighters... the empire has a lot of those already. AND that is not a bad thing.

Man, you assume I even have any cash. Right now I'm struggling to pay for a 45 dollar phone bill.

Time to chill on dat $6 a day Taco Bell lunch you love so much...

$1 snack sliders from there will get you farther...

At 25 points you have named tie advanced to choose from with better attack and an extra shield.

For 24 points you get two tie/ln.

Id take OL over both options without fail

especially as the base Tie/ln is 15 points because **** not having crackshot

Man, you assume I even have any cash. Right now I'm struggling to pay for a 45 dollar phone bill.

Time to chill on dat $6 a day Taco Bell lunch you love so much...

Taco Bell is honestly delicious.

Honestly watching people bang on about the fo here is like watching people bang on about age of sigmar on warhammer forums.

Sloop isn't that amazing if it were you'd see the starviper a whole lot more.

The ship does nothing other ships can't do better.

It was made to make the mouse happy it suffers greatly from being a lazy clone in the movie giving ffg little to work with.

No it's an apt analogy as the fo is a poor replacement for a classic ship as AoS is a poor replacement for fantasy.

Do you just

ever state non-absolutes