Surely the Tech slot, S-Loop, and extra shield are worth a point each?

Surely the Tech slot, S-Loop, and extra shield are worth a point each?

(*) Slots should almost always be priced at 0, since--at least, theoretically--each of the things you could put in a slot is balanced by its own cost.

(*) It's really hard to assign a price for a dial, but I can't think of a ship except the Lambda and maybe the YV where it's so good or bad that it's worth points. That is, dials distinguish ships from one another, but (IMO) should rarely be considered as a factor in a ship's cost.

(*) The extra shield, as noted upthread, has a variable cost but probably somewhere in the range of 2-3 points.

Surely the Tech slot, S-Loop, and extra shield are worth a point each?

OF COURSE THEY ARE!!!

Surely the Tech slot, S-Loop, and extra shield are worth a point each?

(*) Slots should almost always be priced at 0, since--at least, theoretically--each of the things you could put in a slot is balanced by its own cost.

(*) It's really hard to assign a price for a dial, but I can't think of a ship except the Lambda and maybe the YV where it's so good or bad that it's worth points. That is, dials distinguish ships from one another, but (IMO) should rarely be considered as a factor in a ship's cost.

(*) The extra shield, as noted upthread, has a variable cost but probably somewhere in the range of 2-3 points.

AHH-SHAD-DUP...MATH-MOUTH!

OK, somewhere I missed something. what is TAP ?

Tie advanced prototype.

Tie Advanced Prototype...if only they had double tap so that the name would fit.

I guess with the title they double tap their actions.

(*) It's really hard to assign a price for a dial, but I can't think of a ship except the Lambda and maybe the YV where it's so good or bad that it's worth points. That is, dials distinguish ships from one another, but (IMO) should rarely be considered as a factor in a ship's cost...

...one of the first card creators I used - http://cardcreator.atelierdufaucon.com/- at least attempts to put a value on the dial by adjusting the price based on the manuevers available, and whether they're green or red. I think in this case it's erring on the side of caution though and you'll likely end up with overcosted ships more than anything else.

So is there a thread which tells us exactly how much they undercosted the TLT?

Some people think it should of been a point more to stop four y wings being an option.

Some people think it should of been a point more to stop four y wings being an option.

At a point more you could still fit four TLT Y-Wings, just nothing else.

It should have been a point more.

Responding to Vorpal's TLT comments since TLTs cost-effective existence directly relates to the viability of every other generic ship in the game, including the TIE/FO's...

I think, in retrospect, the TLT is defined by its effect rather than by its price, if that makes sense. PTL worked this way, as well: in Wave 1, the only way to break out of the action economy was Squad Leader, and that "extra" action had to come from someone. When we got PTL, they essentially defined the value of an extra action with a moderate drawback at 3 points.

TLT has a very flat and consistent damage curve, biased slightly against high AGI targets, and is generally terrible against AutoThrusters. I think that is the "effect" you are referring to. The cost however is what makes or breaks it: and there is extremely strong evidence that the cost is too low from both a theoretical perspective, as well as from empirical results.

Also, Squad leader is just a terrible upgrade, so isn't a particularly good comparative example for, well... anything.

And similarly, I don't think TLT is too cheap.

There is a fundamental mathematical relationship between a ship's firing duty cycle (affected by arc dodging on defense and turret firing solutions on offense) to its lethality coefficient, and therefore by direct extension its overall cost effectiveness. A 24 point Y-wing TLT is quantifiably more cost efficient for its points relative to any other generic ship in the game.

I think the game didn't have an offensive-oriented turret upgrade, and the price of getting one turns out to be 6 points.

Minor correction: the game did not have a cost effective turret upgrade, of any kind. The Blaster Turret is a purely offensive-oriented turret, but it's terrible. The Ion Cannon Turret isn't cost effective even considering the value of its effect.

It's 6 points because... FFG arbitrarily made it 6 points. But the discussion isn't about what printed value FFG put on the card, it is about what it is actually worth relative to everything else in the game.

That is, now that we've seen it in the wild for a relatively long time, its cost doesn't appear to be the major constraint: people aren't really trying to cram 4 of them into a list, so increasing its cost to 7 or even 8 wouldn't have made a big difference.

1) I'm dumbfounded you actually believe this. You're normally way smarter than this.

2) When you are playing MoneyBall, cost is the great equalizer. Of course it matters.

3) Look at the Worlds Top 32 and see what happens with TLT at 7 points instead of 6. Most of the lists with TLT change dramatically.

I don't mean that cost isn't a relevant factor. But I don't see many people building lists and thinking "can I afford to squeeze a TLT in here?" There's really no other upgrade that does what TLT does, so instead we see things like "I think I'm going to run a pair of TLT Y-wings. What else fits in this list?" So I don't think the right question is whether the TLT should have cost 5 or 6 or 7, I think it's how the game adapts to the effect of TLT going forward.

The TLT Y-wing is just another generic ship. But it's clearly better than any other generic ship in the game, unless you're shooting at a target with AutoThrusters.

And we already know how the game has adapted. >75% of the non-TLT generic ship usage in the top end meta game just went extinct.

The generic PS1/PS3 TIE/FOs are NOT cost effective enough to warrant their dial and actions. This is without even considering the generic-crushing effect that TLT has had on the meta.

Omega Leader is another story. Comm Relay + Juke is close to auto-include. Juke is really really good.

In my experience, and maybe I haven't played strong TLT players, the 16 point Zeta squadron pilots are great against common (PS2) TLT platforms. They have a high enough HP and AGI combination that TLTs don't melt through them, and their speed, PS, and Barrel Roll makes avoiding shots in the Range 1 hole a pretty reasonable thing to do. I know their jousting value isn't strong, but their matchups are strong. I've regularly had Zetas outfight PS2 B-wings and Y-wings that cost 150% of their points. Against higher PS ships, you can go for a block and take a Target Lock for a later turn, making a turn that would have zero offense into a turn that supports your offense later. Combined with the 2-speed S-loops, it makes them very good at close-quarters fights. Just my experiences, though. How bad are the efficiency numbers? I thought from a Nova episode a few months ago you said they were not great, but not too bad. Has something changed in your calculations?

This has been my experience as well. Having three options to flip a ship and then hard two out of it to relieve stress makes the FO one of the best ships in the game at keeping on a target. And when fighting TLTs, which are almost exclusively 2s, makes the Zeta worthwhile.

...and we already know how the game has adapted. >75% of the non-TLT generic ship usage in the top end meta game just went extinct.

Dammit Juggs, just when I start to think peaceful coexistence is possible, you drop a line like this on the forum...

Just out of curiosity, what happens with the value of TLT if turrets/cannons got range bonuses/penalties? This simple change to the way secondary weapons works seems like it would help the weaker weapons, and hurt the stronger ones, while letting ordnance keep something special.

Urgh. I almost want something to curbstomp TLTs so other topics can be had.
But at the same time that simply won't happen since all turrets are evil.

...and we already know how the game has adapted. >75% of the non-TLT generic ship usage in the top end meta game just went extinct.

Dammit Juggs, just when I start to think peaceful coexistence is possible, you drop a line like this on the forum...

Here it is... you play STAR WARS or you get trapped by this crap-mentality of tournament play.

Sad...

Good thing I (WE) know how to have fun. Now back to REAL STAR WARS: X-WING EPIC... THE GLORY!

:lol:

It's 6 points because... FFG arbitrarily made it 6 points. But the discussion isn't about what printed value FFG put on the card, it is about what it is actually worth relative to everything else in the game .

I bet the designers would take exception to your use of the word "arbitrarily."

So.... they are eyeballs, but they are black eyeballs. Does that make them Shiners?

FO SHOW!!!

Here it is... you play STAR WARS or you get trapped by this crap-mentality of tournament play.

Whoa whoa whoa - what's this "or" business Joe?

I go to tournaments. And I take whatever I like! I'll let ya'll know how it goes when I unleash another non-TLT generics list next time round...

Here it is... you play STAR WARS or you get trapped by this crap-mentality of tournament play.

Whoa whoa whoa - what's this "or" business Joe?

I go to tournaments. And I take whatever I like! I'll let ya'll know how it goes when I unleash another non-TLT generics list next time round...

Well some of us still have to go out to the bar I reckons...

Then some of us (Me and a few others here) stay the bleeps at home and get drunk as monkeys without the inflated cost, and social hassles, and actually wake up safe in our own beds the next morning.

(*) The extra shield, as noted upthread, has a variable cost but probably somewhere in the range of 2-3 points.

AHH-SHAD-DUP...MATH-MOUTH!

...no?

That is, now that we've seen it in the wild for a relatively long time, its cost doesn't appear to be the major constraint: people aren't really trying to cram 4 of them into a list, so increasing its cost to 7 or even 8 wouldn't have made a big difference.

1) I'm dumbfounded you actually believe this. You're normally way smarter than this.

2) When you are playing MoneyBall, cost is the great equalizer. Of course it matters.

3) Look at the Worlds Top 32 and see what happens with TLT at 7 points instead of 6. Most of the lists with TLT change dramatically.

(1) I think I'm expressing myself poorly, then.

I think PTL would have been widely used at 4 points. I've said, over and over again, that a 7-point TLT would have been totally acceptable to me. And there are two ways to look at that: one is that those upgrades are underpriced for what they do.

But you can turn the picture on its side and look at it this way, too: until PTL there wasn't anything in the game that did what PTL does to the action economy, and there's nothing in the game that does what TLT does in terms of both geometric coverage and that flat damage curve. And those things are so desirable that by publishing them at a particular cost, FFG is painting an X on the ground and saying "This is where the metagame is going to be located."

(2) I'm not saying cost doesn't matter. I'm saying it's not the only thing that matters, because the value of game elements is context-dependent but the game elements themselves help define context. In the current state of the X-wing system, TLT is one of the... um, this kind of math isn't my strongest suit, but it's an attractor rather than simply an element of the set.

(3) Point taken.

The TLT Y-wing is just another generic ship. But it's clearly better than any other generic ship in the game, unless you're shooting at a target with AutoThrusters.

The "unless" is doing a lot of work, there. There are a lot of ships out there that can take Autothrusters, and even prior to the introduction of TLT, Autothrusters was included in a large proportion of lists.

I don't think that sort of lock-and-key/silver-bullet mechanism in the metagame is a good thing. I don't think there's an obvious way to eliminate it, and in a metagame that features it I think it's hard to make an absolutist case that TLT is overpowered.

You didn't like Squad Leader as a basis for comparison, so the Phantom might be a better one. I don't think TLT is as bad as the Phantom, but the problem with the Phantom wasn't exactly that it was too powerful relative to its cost. It was very beatable if you were prepared to fight it, and very difficult if you weren't.

In the same way, I think the problem isn't exactly that TLT is overpowered. It's that the effect of TLT--that flat damage curve, let alone on a turret--is a spike that hurts certain kinds of targets substantially more than others, so it pushes on the metagame harder than other game elements.

(*) The extra shield, as noted upthread, has a variable cost but probably somewhere in the range of 2-3 points.

AHH-SHAD-DUP...MATH-MOUTH!

...no?

I Know...

Majorjuggler, even as a strong proponent of Genericwing, I have to say that the current meta that TLT shaped is far better than the one it killed off even if it's just a bunch of stupid Acewing ships.

Also I see more (non-TLT) generics in my area than I have ever seen since before the Phantom took over/Turretwing killed off Whisper and 4 TIEs. Granted, I see a **** ton of Poe & Ello/Redace/Miranda hyper "welp, autoloss turn 3" regen bull and Palp aces, but I see a generic squad or stuff like Vader and 3 Juke Comm Relay FO's occasionally. More than I saw during Turretwing. Green Squadrons with Poe is pretty good.

I know im coming a little late into this. I guess from my own experinces i dont see why a discussion of TLTs are relevant with a discussion on the Tie/fo. I have found the tlt lists i have come across it has never really factored in what im flying in as much as your ability to manage range.

I love flying the Tie/fo and have had a lot of success with these guys. When you compare yhem with the standard tie, the fo dial has to be one of the best in the game. That sloop allows for some interesting positioning. Not to mention the boost of having a shield giving them that extra hit point. It doesnt seem like much. But 4 hit points behind agi 3 is a tad better than 3 behind 3 agi of the tie.

I have found that 4 zeta fo compared to the 5 obsidian tie i used to run is stronger defensively for the same points roughly. And as a result in the longer game over the first few rounds that extra survivabily makes up for that one less ship offensively.

Just my thoughts. I recently took a fel and 4 zeta list to a tourney and after 5 rounds of swiss was undefeated and there were a few games against tlt and some strong meta lists.