Hi there,
We argue a couple of days ago about Rune Knowledge. I was pretty sure that i read a thread that explained that when getting a surge you could spend more than one fatigue to trigger additional damages.
To make it short if i get one surge can i suffer 2 fatigues to trigger four damages ? Or is it one surge for each fatigue to be spend ?

Or am i limited to one fatigue per surge and per attack ?

I tried to find it in the FAQ and in the threads but it is no where to be seen, so i begin to believe that i dreamed it straight away.

THX fo your replies

You can only spend 1 surge this way. With that 1 surge, you can only suffer 1 fatigue to do 2 additional damage, exactly as the card describes. Nothing more.

Side note: if your fatigue is already at your stamina level, the "suffer 1 fatigue" becomes a "suffer 1 damage" (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13203575#13203575)

No, you may only spend one surge this way per attack. "Your attack gains" a surge ability. Just like any surge ability, you can only use it once per attack per written instance. The abbreviation 's: +1' is really just shorthand for 'each attack you peform with this weapon gains surge: +1.' For example, the berserker's starting weapon, the "Chipped Greataxe" has two instances of surge: +1. Therefore, he can spend 2 surges to add a total of 2 damage to his attack roll.

You can only spend 1 surge this way. With that 1 surge, you can only suffer 1 fatigue to do 2 additional damage, exactly as the card describes. Nothing more.

Side note: if your fatigue is already at your stamina level, the "suffer 1 fatigue" becomes a "suffer 1 damage" (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13203575#13203575)

That seems wrong. You cannot spend fatigues above your stamina (rulebook page 13.), the converting to damage only occurs when you are forced to take a fatigue damage. So it surprises me a lot that this is an official answer since the rulebook is very clear in this. Also, this seems vastly overpowered. I would like to hear other people's thought in this:)

Like, how does this work for the hero ability of Reynaerth the Worthy? And for his starting weapon? To point of a limited stamina pool is that is is limited. If you can so easily bypass this very essential rule, a hero's life becomes a lot easier.

You can only spend 1 surge this way. With that 1 surge, you can only suffer 1 fatigue to do 2 additional damage, exactly as the card describes. Nothing more.

Side note: if your fatigue is already at your stamina level, the "suffer 1 fatigue" becomes a "suffer 1 damage" (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13203575#13203575)

That seems wrong. You cannot spend fatigues above your stamina (rulebook page 13.), the converting to damage only occurs when you are forced to take a fatigue damage. So it surprises me a lot that this is an official answer since the rulebook is very clear in this. Also, this seems vastly overpowered. I would like to hear other people's thought in this:)

Probably someone will explain this better than me! ;-)

But with "Rune Knoledge" you only spend a surge.. the [fatige] is forced on the hero (even if ok he is spending the surge willingly knowing what will happen).

So you can use it even if you are at your max.

It's the same thing as with the Cave Spiders, you spend a mouvement point and you know you will have a [damage] if you are at your max [fatigue].. but it's an effet, you are not spending it.

Like, how does this work for the hero ability of Reynaerth the Worthy? And for his starting weapon? To point of a limited stamina pool is that is is limited. If you can so easily bypass this very essential rule, a hero's life becomes a lot easier.

Reynaerth is not the same, the [fatigue] of his ability : it's the cost, it's what he is spending in the first place, so he can go willingly above his max [fatigue]

You can only spend 1 surge this way. With that 1 surge, you can only suffer 1 fatigue to do 2 additional damage, exactly as the card describes. Nothing more.

Side note: if your fatigue is already at your stamina level, the "suffer 1 fatigue" becomes a "suffer 1 damage" (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13203575#13203575)

That seems wrong. You cannot spend fatigues above your stamina (rulebook page 13.), the converting to damage only occurs when you are forced to take a fatigue damage. So it surprises me a lot that this is an official answer since the rulebook is very clear in this. Also, this seems vastly overpowered. I would like to hear other people's thought in this:)

Probably someone will explain this better than me! ;-)

But with "Rune Knoledge" you only spend a surge.. the [fatige] is forced on the hero (even if ok he is spending the surge willingly knowing what will happen).

So you can use it even if you are at your max.

It's the same thing as with the Cave Spiders, you spend a mouvement point and you know you will have a [damage] if you are at your max [fatigue].. but it's an effet, you are not spending it.

I can see your reasoning, but I can't really agree. To me, it sounds like a rule that bypasses an important principle. There are other non-skills game effects that use fatigue, like a weapon that allow a hero to suffer a fatigue to replace a certain die with an other die. And adding the requisite of the surge kinda feels like cheating, to be honest:p

EDIT: we can all agree that the runemaster is a very powerful class, I think the best mage class in terms of damage output. The option to use this ability at the expense of a health only makes him more of a weapon of mass destruction.

Official answer here end of the thread : https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/89044-can-heroes-use-skills-that-needs-stamina-when-their-fatigue-is-full/?hl=%2Brune+%2Bknowledge#entry847893

Quoted just the Q and A

Can Runemaster hero use Runic Knowledge surge ability if he has no fatigue to suffer and suffer 1 damage instead?

Yes he can.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

I understrand it's quite powerfull, but most of the time he is also the more vulnerable hero...

Official answer here end of the thread : https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/89044-can-heroes-use-skills-that-needs-stamina-when-their-fatigue-is-full/?hl=%2Brune+%2Bknowledge#entry847893

Quoted just the Q and A

Can Runemaster hero use Runic Knowledge surge ability if he has no fatigue to suffer and suffer 1 damage instead?

Yes he can.

Thanks,

Justin Kemppainen

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

I understrand it's quite powerfull, but most of the time he is also the more vulnerable hero...

Yeah, but he is not when you play with Tarha or Dezra. And there is nothing a knight can't protect or a disciple can't heal. A rule is a rule, even if it is a weird one. But our group will house rule this one I think.

From the rulebook:

Your group can houserule if it wants, obviously, but you should understand the implications. I'll try to be as clear as I can. From my glossary:

By the way I have a question that is not linked to Rune Knowledge but rather the fact it's a power asside as it's possible to suffer more [fatigue] than your max!
Like "I am the Law" and "By the Book" from the Marshall class, Karnon Heroit Feat...

My question does Silhouette Heroic Feat (the New one from the H&M Packs) is part of this list?
Silhouette Heroic Feat : "[Action]: You may move double your Speed. During this movement, each time you enter a space that contains a search token, you may suffer 1 [Fatigue] to search that search token."

Here the cost is the action... but as the text says "you may suffer" (with the others it was rather "you suffer" point! ) ... can she suffer [Fatigue] if she his at her MAX ?
As there is a choice I would say no it's another cost, that you can or not pay : if you do it's willingly.... and so you can't go above your MAX, correct or not?...

"I am the Law" is very definitely not a voluntary cost. You test, and if you fail there is a consequence.

Karnon's feat is tricky, but I would say not a cost for 2 reasons-

1) similarity to web trap.

2) Karnon has the opportunity to recover fatigue from the attack before the resolution of his ability.

I think Silhouette's feat has been discussed before, but I'm not sure. I'm inclined to say she cannot suffer in excess with that feat as each time she enters an appropriate space, she has a choice- suffer, or not to search, or not.

I think Silhouette's feat has been discussed before, but I'm not sure. I'm inclined to say she cannot suffer in excess with that feat as each time she enters an appropriate space, she has a choice- suffer, or not to search, or not.

Searched and found nothing.. but your conclusion seems logical..

Thank you for you help !

From the rulebook:

"Heroes voluntarily suffer fatigue in order to use skills or move additional spaces. To suffer fatigue, the player takes the number of fatigue tokens equal to the cost and places them on his Hero sheet. When using skills or moving, a hero may only suffer fatigue up to an amount equal to his Stamina. If any other game effect forces a hero to suffer fatigue in

excess of his Stamina, he instead suffers damage equal to the excess fatigue that would have been suffered."

Your group can houserule if it wants, obviously, but you should understand the implications. I'll try to be as clear as I can. From my glossary:

"The cost of an ability is the immediate prerequisite to performing it. Common costs include a surge, fatigue, a

movement point, discarding a class token, or exhausting a card. Effects which accompany or immediately follow

an event are not necessarily costs. (Example: the fatigue suffered when a hero moves out of a space is a side

effect, not a cost. The cost in this case is the movement point.)"

It comes down to the difference between "You may suffer 1 fatigue to..." and "You may ____. If you do, suffer 1 fatigue." That is, whether fatigue is the actual cost of an ability, or if it is part of the effect of the ability.

-With the case of 'Runic Knowledge,' you choose to spend a surge (the cost) and there are two effects- you suffer a fatigue(or a damage if you're full), and the attack results gain 2 wounds.

-With 'Web,' you choose to move away from a master cave spider (the cost being a MP of not, depending on how you move), and the effect is you suffer a fatigue (or a damage if you're full.)

-'Reynhart's hero ability' the cost is a fatigue to reroll a die.

-'Jagged Handaxe' and 'Rusted Handaxe' the cost is a fatigue to either reroll a power die or replace a power die, respectively.

Any skill with a printed fatigue cost (bottom right) explicitly states that part of the cost of that ability is suffering some amount of fatigue. The cost may also include exhausting a card, or spending an action. The effect would be whatever is the text of the skill.

If you want to extend the rule to "heroes may not voluntarily suffer fatigue in excess of their stamina, even by performing abilities which result in them suffering fatigue" then you've got to face up to a few things. Some simple, like when an exhausted hero is next to a master spider, he is stuck, plain and simple. Some things are less simple, such as how far you want to define 'voluntary.' Say, for example, there is a Wildlander surrounded by lava. She has plenty of damage left to take, but only 1 fatigue left. Also, suppose the OL has played "Word of Misery." The OL moves a monster into the space next to the Wildlander- can she use Nimble? On the one hand, the ability costs 1 fatigue, which she has. However, if she chooses to move, she will enter a lava space and suffer a wound, and because 'Word of Misery' is in play, that means suffering another fatigue, which is in excess of her stamina. Before your proposed house rule, it's clear that only the first fatigue is actually a cost of her ability- the second is a result of using "Nimble," specifically an effect of 'Word of Misery.' However, it's a fatigue that the Wildlander is voluntarily suffering while moving/ using a skill. Would you house rule that she can't use Nimble in this case?

A clear explanation, I agree that a hero should be able to move away from a master spider and that Jane could use her ability. The distinction between 'cost' and 'suffer' is important. I just think that it makes the runemaster too powerful.

The rune master class IS powerful, but mages are squishy, so there is balance. If Leoric (for example) takes too much fatigue and uses Rune Knowledge, he takes 12% of his HP in damage instead of a fatigue. The OL just has to do 7 more damage to knock him out...

You're willing to take that risk just for a +2 damage?

You're willing to take that risk just for a +2 damage?

As a matter of fact, he probably should The runemaster is a glass cannon and should probably be used as such for best effect. E.g. without thinking too much of dying, unless of course dying has a critical effect on the quest being played. But even so you still have armors, relics and other trinkets, coupled with a good party for healing and protection to make sure the runemaster doesn't die at the first shot. But even if he/she does, have somebody spend one action to revive him and it's party time again for the heroes, so no big deal.

Rune master is always my first target of choice if I cannot manage to kill the healer first. That's because it's the highest DPS in the team. If the person playing him is overly cautious, as for not exposing himself too much, then the OL can definitely find ways to control his DPS by making the player worry about the rune master's survival, which would in turn decrease his damage output, so more actions can be virtually spent for doing other things than focusing on his death.

Pick up Bilehall when it is available in your area. By the looks of 'Terrify,' it will be your new best friend against the Runemaster.

You're willing to take that risk just for a +2 damage?

As a matter of fact, he probably should The runemaster is a glass cannon and should probably be used as such for best effect. E.g. without thinking too much of dying, unless of course dying has a critical effect on the quest being played. But even so you still have armors, relics and other trinkets, coupled with a good party for healing and protection to make sure the runemaster doesn't die at the first shot. But even if he/she does, have somebody spend one action to revive him and it's party time again for the heroes, so no big deal.

Rune master is always my first target of choice if I cannot manage to kill the healer first. That's because it's the highest DPS in the team. If the person playing him is overly cautious, as for not exposing himself too much, then the OL can definitely find ways to control his DPS by making the player worry about the rune master's survival, which would in turn decrease his damage output, so more actions can be virtually spent for doing other things than focusing on his death.

The ACT 1 armor Rune Plate gives Leoric 2 extra health and an extra black defense dice if he has a rune weapon equipped. And when that +2 damage comes in the form of a guaranteed Blast in combination with a yellow or green dice buff from (insert healer class here) then yes, that risk is easily taken. And these aren't lucky exceptions but strong combination wich can be used every turn.

Both good counter points, and it illustrates what I was saying: you have to make choices, you have to have certain equipment. the Runic Knowledge skill on its own is not a game breaker.

Pick up Bilehall when it is available in your area. By the looks of 'Terrify,' it will be your new best friend against the Runemaster.

Yeah but the only monster dealing Terrify condition from this expansion is the Broodwalker, which is really stone unplayable with a movement of 2, a brown defense die, blue+yellow melee attack. It's ability affecting the terrain around it is interesting but I strongly doubt heroes will find it highly problematic in any significant manner.