As I have said to me its a skill flavor thing.

Mechanical does not feel like using the force to attune a lightsaber.

It feel like its a skill most Jedi don't have so we are using it as a balance thing.

Wait it makes it to hard for Jedi to make a good lightsaber lets give them a -2p bonus.

whats the point just use Discipline a skill already linked to the force through force powers.

if mechanical does not pull you out of the game then fine use it, but for me and my group the suspension of disbelief drops on this one.

To me its like saying use your piloting skill to uses a force power as a balance because its something most force users don't have.

For the record this doesn't exactly dispute what Daeglan and others have said but basically confirms it.

As I have said to me its a skill flavor thing.

Mechanical does not feel like using the force to attune a lightsaber.

It feel like its a skill most Jedi don't have so we are using it as a balance thing.

Wait it makes it to hard for Jedi to make a good lightsaber lets give them a -2p bonus.

whats the point just use Discipline a skill already linked to the force through force powers.

if mechanical does not pull you out of the game then fine use it, but for me and my group the suspension of disbelief drops on this one.

To me its like saying use your piloting skill to uses a force power as a balance because its something most force users don't have.

and why do you think tuning the mechanical interface between the crystal and the rest is not mechanical and force related? which I think is the point FFG is trying to get at. The FFG method is combining the need to use the force and mechanics.

Also you still have not addressed the actual problem from the previous GM. You created a change supposedly to fix a problem. But your fix does nothing about the problem.

Just make your change and be done with it. I don't know why you came to a discussion board if you are not interested in discussing anything. Your upset with anyone that isn't just agreeing with our idea. Everyone here is of the opinion it seems pointless. This entire thing boils down to how you personally define the "mechanics" skill differently than the rest of us and the game designers.

what ever I'm wrong everyone is right I'm tried of this bull.

I posted a House rule here looking for advice if it was to powerful or i was being to hard on the players and all i get is I'm wrong and people trying to prove me wrong and FFG right so.

whatever guess I just wouldn't waste my time posting here ever again way to make people seem welcome.

what ever I'm wrong everyone is right I'm tried of this bull.

I posted a House rule here looking for advice if it was to powerful or i was being to hard on the players and all i get is I'm wrong and people trying to prove me wrong and FFG right so.

whatever guess I just wouldn't waste my time posting here ever again way to make people seem welcome.

No you get people saying WHY... because the reasoning you gave is not fixed by this change. Also your change runs into another problem. No one will be able to do the final mods on an ilum crystal. Making a change just to make a change does not make sense. And you still have not addressed the very simple question I have asked you twice. Instead you are throwing a fit because no one agrees with you. Largely because your change is just a change because you can.

First I would like to apologize for the harshness not the meaning of my last post. I've been dealing with a Ebay seller who charged me for priority shipping and sent my package media mail in substandard packing leading to my book getting beat to he!! .

now to settle this lingering question the issue with the Mechanic was not and is not the reason I am going to change the rule, but is seems to be what everyone wants to harp on. and would never happen in my game either way

The reason and I have said this multiple time but it keeps git Ignored is where I feel that the Mechanical skill is great for the construction of the hilt (it is a mechanical device). the problem I have is that I don't feel it is a good representation of the process of attuning a crystal to the user. which is what myself and the rest of my group believe the modding of the crystal is attempting to portray.

The reason I chose Discipline is I feel it shows the centering and concentration necessary to attune the crystal.

as this would relive the issue of Mechanical skill not being a career skill for most Jedi I would remove the difficulty reduction for constructing your own lightsaber,but leave the force die bonus as that adds to the feel of the attuning process.

now the issue with not being able to attune you crystal more then once was and idea to keep the power down on the lightsabers with low ranking Jedi basically so they would not be able to do one mod then another then another in till they had a fully modded lightsaber which at low levels can be overpowering. I may change this to once per force rating. and I find this a problem in the game no matter which skill you use (Discipline or Mechanical)

Now as to the change for change comment

I don't feel changing the skill used in the modding process is a change for change sake when it improves the immersion of myself and my players in the game.

What the purpose of this post original was, was to get advice on certain aspects like was the force bonus to much or as so many have said that the restriction on how many time you could mod the crystal was to restrictive.

but all I get are the rule are find don't change them.

you may think there find but my players and I don't and that's fine I'm not forcing anyone to change there game to match there House-rule.

My felling on the whole think is if you don't like them don't use them, but don't post here just to convince me I'm wrong.

There are many post on these threads I don't agree with or feel are wrong but I don't get involved with them to prove them wrong.

what ever I'm wrong everyone is right I'm tried of this bull.

I posted a House rule here looking for advice if it was to powerful or i was being to hard on the players and all i get is I'm wrong and people trying to prove me wrong and FFG right so.

whatever guess I just wouldn't waste my time posting here ever again way to make people seem welcome.

And you got the advice. But based on your responses in this thread, instead of considering that maybe the fact all the responses were saying maybe the suggested change wasn't necessary and that the core problem needed a different, you got into a huff because you didn't the praise you were expecting. We've tried to get you to address the real problems, but instead you got tunnel vision and didn't want to be bothered addressing the real problems. Your so-called "solutions" did absolutely NOTHING to address the real problem, something that several posters such as Daeglan and myself have pointed out repeatedly. But instead of thinking "hmm, maybe they've got a point?" you got dismissive and overly childish.

It's the nature of the beast when it comes to a public forum, that anything you post is going to be open to scrutiny by a large number of strangers, and if you can't accept the simple fact that it's quite possible for what you thought was a good idea to be exposed as a horrible idea that doesn't actually fix the problem you were hoping to address... well, you're probably better off not posting on a public forum.

But at this point it's pretty clear that you're not interested in constructive advice on working to resolve the real issue with your group.

I thought my last post answer what I thought the problem was,yet it is still ignored

still you claim that the issue in the last game was the problem when i have repeatedly say it was not.

and you still come to this thread just to belittle me like I've seen you do on so many other threads which is why i have no uses for your comments and no respect for you.

so think what ever you like I really don't care.

what ever I'm wrong everyone is right I'm tried of this bull.

I posted a House rule here looking for advice if it was to powerful or i was being to hard on the players and all i get is I'm wrong and people trying to prove me wrong and FFG right so.

whatever guess I just wouldn't waste my time posting here ever again way to make people seem welcome.

And you got the advice. But based on your responses in this thread, instead of considering that maybe the fact all the responses were saying maybe the suggested change wasn't necessary and that the core problem needed a different, you got into a huff because you didn't the praise you were expecting. We've tried to get you to address the real problems, but instead you got tunnel vision and didn't want to be bothered addressing the real problems. Your so-called "solutions" did absolutely NOTHING to address the real problem, something that several posters such as Daeglan and myself have pointed out repeatedly. But instead of thinking "hmm, maybe they've got a point?" you got dismissive and overly childish.

It's the nature of the beast when it comes to a public forum, that anything you post is going to be open to scrutiny by a large number of strangers, and if you can't accept the simple fact that it's quite possible for what you thought was a good idea to be exposed as a horrible idea that doesn't actually fix the problem you were hoping to address... well, you're probably better off not posting on a public forum.

But at this point it's pretty clear that you're not interested in constructive advice on working to resolve the real issue with your group.

No I never got advice from you or daeglan. I just you opinion on why the RAW work fine.

and since you don't seem to know what my as you put it "Real Problem" with the rules is your advice did not resolve anything

the "problem" you keep quoting was an example of the rule are not always perfect and blindly quoting the RAW as fine is not and answer or advice

you completely missed the point of the statement and took it out of context then decided it was my problem that I was trying to fix.

It's not my problem and I'm not going over it again its in the post just before the one I'm quoting.

also thank you to werewyvernx for the advice you did give.

Theory: Maybe the real problem is canon. I'm not as well versed in Legends as a number on these boards, but it seems like "attuning the crystal" is a relatively new concept. Before, I simply recall that the crystal had to be properly aligned. Any error in the alignment process could be disastrous or even fatal.

If the above example was the case, any number of skills could be applicable. Indeed Mechanics could make a fair amount of sense, since you would have to make adjustments and perhaps do some calculation. Discipline could work too. Heck I could even see a very strong argument for Cool. Think how frustrating the process would be.

To be honest, the suggested house rule is fine with me, but the difficulty reduction and the added Force dice rolls largely makes it a non-issue for me.

I thought my last post answer what I thought the problem was,yet it is still ignored

still you claim that the issue in the last game was the problem when i have repeatedly say it was not.

and you still come to this thread just to belittle me like I've seen you do on so many other threads which is why i have no uses for your comments and no respect for you.

so think what ever you like I really don't care.

Yeah except on the first page you said the problem was the fact a non force user could make a lightsaber in your last campaign. This does not address that problem. which you yourself said was a problem. That is not solved by this. As to your issue about not feeling mechanics not feeling right....Why did you ignore my response that why does using a force die in addition to mechanics not cover the improving the interfacing the crystal with the mechanics?

Your concern is that "modifying the crystal doesn't feel like mechanics" is based on something I don't understand. That is the big reason everyone is focusing on your second concern. You never really explained why it doesn't feel that way. To me, the idea of modifying a crystal most likely is one of two things. It is the way it is positioned inside the hilt or the physical makeup of the crystal itself. The crystal would likely be scratched or sculpted to change the physical shape in a manner different than how it started. This process would require a tool kit (something clearly associated with the mechanics skill). I'm not saying these are the only possible ways but are the two that came to mind for me specifically. That is why your original statement that it didn't "feel" right doesn't make sense to me (and possibly others).

As for changing it to discipline, I think that is a poor idea. Discipline is already a skill that Force Users should be investing experience into. I don't think it is wise to change the skill used to accomplish a task to something the character already invests into significantly. One aspect I enjoy in an RPG is being forced to decide which way I want to improve my character specifically. Someone who wants to be a strong force user may need to delay the ability to fully modify a lightsaber to become more attuned with the force. Conversely someone can invest in mechanics and create a very strong lightsaber and become quite proficient at repairs and so forth. Having one skill cover so many aspects eliminates these sort of decisions because you just pick the Swiss Army knife skill.

Your concern is that "modifying the crystal doesn't feel like mechanics" is based on something I don't understand. That is the big reason everyone is focusing on your second concern. You never really explained why it doesn't feel that way. To me, the idea of modifying a crystal most likely is one of two things. It is the way it is positioned inside the hilt or the physical makeup of the crystal itself. The crystal would likely be scratched or sculpted to change the physical shape in a manner different than how it started. This process would require a tool kit (something clearly associated with the mechanics skill). I'm not saying these are the only possible ways but are the two that came to mind for me specifically. That is why your original statement that it didn't "feel" right doesn't make sense to me (and possibly others).

As for changing it to discipline, I think that is a poor idea. Discipline is already a skill that Force Users should be investing experience into. I don't think it is wise to change the skill used to accomplish a task to something the character already invests into significantly. One aspect I enjoy in an RPG is being forced to decide which way I want to improve my character specifically. Someone who wants to be a strong force user may need to delay the ability to fully modify a lightsaber to become more attuned with the force. Conversely someone can invest in mechanics and create a very strong lightsaber and become quite proficient at repairs and so forth. Having one skill cover so many aspects eliminates these sort of decisions because you just pick the Swiss Army knife skill.

The only canon example of lightsabers being make The Gathering shows that no tools are used in the creation of a Lightsaber.

on the next point Discipline with out the difficulty reduction to me at least seem just as balance as Mechanical with it.

I thought my last post answer what I thought the problem was,yet it is still ignored

still you claim that the issue in the last game was the problem when i have repeatedly say it was not.

and you still come to this thread just to belittle me like I've seen you do on so many other threads which is why i have no uses for your comments and no respect for you.

so think what ever you like I really don't care.

Yeah except on the first page you said the problem was the fact a non force user could make a lightsaber in your last campaign. This does not address that problem. which you yourself said was a problem. That is not solved by this. As to your issue about not feeling mechanics not feeling right....Why did you ignore my response that why does using a force die in addition to mechanics not cover the improving the interfacing the crystal with the mechanics?

Again that was not to show what my problem was. I could have worded it badly but I don't see it.

that was a example of how the RAW is not perfect.

we fixed that ages ago by leaving the game and starting are own. where like others have said we made it so you can't Mod a crystal unless your a Jedi.

Now as for you other post it was not ignored I just did not respond to you directly, and my response was It does not Feel like a Mechanical roll to me nor does it look like one in the canon material.

Canon examples also don't show crystal modifications. If we're going to say no tools are used because the shows don't show tools being used then we can say modifying the crystal isn't possible because the shows don't show us that either.

Canon examples also don't show crystal modifications. If we're going to say no tools are used because the shows don't show tools being used then we can say modifying the crystal isn't possible because the shows don't show us that either.

Again you have your view on it I have mine if you don't have any suggestions on the house-rule other then don't use them we are not accomplishing anything going back and forth.

Canon examples also don't show crystal modifications. If we're going to say no tools are used because the shows don't show tools being used then we can say modifying the crystal isn't possible because the shows don't show us that either.

Again you have your view on it I have mine if you don't have any suggestions on the house-rule other then don't use them we are not accomplishing anything going back and forth.

This wasn't about my view vs your view. I was pointing out a contradiction in the logic you were applying.

Your concern is that "modifying the crystal doesn't feel like mechanics" is based on something I don't understand. That is the big reason everyone is focusing on your second concern. You never really explained why it doesn't feel that way. To me, the idea of modifying a crystal most likely is one of two things. It is the way it is positioned inside the hilt or the physical makeup of the crystal itself. The crystal would likely be scratched or sculpted to change the physical shape in a manner different than how it started. This process would require a tool kit (something clearly associated with the mechanics skill). I'm not saying these are the only possible ways but are the two that came to mind for me specifically. That is why your original statement that it didn't "feel" right doesn't make sense to me (and possibly others).

As for changing it to discipline, I think that is a poor idea. Discipline is already a skill that Force Users should be investing experience into. I don't think it is wise to change the skill used to accomplish a task to something the character already invests into significantly. One aspect I enjoy in an RPG is being forced to decide which way I want to improve my character specifically. Someone who wants to be a strong force user may need to delay the ability to fully modify a lightsaber to become more attuned with the force. Conversely someone can invest in mechanics and create a very strong lightsaber and become quite proficient at repairs and so forth. Having one skill cover so many aspects eliminates these sort of decisions because you just pick the Swiss Army knife skill.

The only canon example of lightsabers being make The Gathering shows that no tools are used in the creation of a Lightsaber.

on the next point Discipline with out the difficulty reduction to me at least seem just as balance as Mechanical with it.

For someone who spent the better part of this thread complaining that people didn't address the point, you sure did a good job and doing the same thing.

If Lorne has her way with the "Crystal Polish" theory, we may have to change it to Negotiation.

In all honestly, I like the idea of modifying the crystal as cutting the gem to perfection. That actually makes the most sense, to me. In the Gathering, we see the crystals are plucked raw from the caves, but that doesn't mean they're optimal.

Canon examples also don't show crystal modifications. If we're going to say no tools are used because the shows don't show tools being used then we can say modifying the crystal isn't possible because the shows don't show us that either.

This one is a totally different issues, not saying you wrong that it doesn't show it in anyway that is visible.

You also can't be said that them sitting there concentrating is not them Modding the Crystal.

first as a side note I don't think Jedi mod there crystals, but it has to be there to balance them with guns.

one of my first thoughts was to eliminate the Modding process of crystals from the game and just give a boost die to Jedi that built there own Lightsaber.

but this had its own problems

do i have them have maxed mod- no this would be to powerful

do i have them with base stats- no then there to weak.

so the Modding system had to stay.

Your concern is that "modifying the crystal doesn't feel like mechanics" is based on something I don't understand. That is the big reason everyone is focusing on your second concern. You never really explained why it doesn't feel that way. To me, the idea of modifying a crystal most likely is one of two things. It is the way it is positioned inside the hilt or the physical makeup of the crystal itself. The crystal would likely be scratched or sculpted to change the physical shape in a manner different than how it started. This process would require a tool kit (something clearly associated with the mechanics skill). I'm not saying these are the only possible ways but are the two that came to mind for me specifically. That is why your original statement that it didn't "feel" right doesn't make sense to me (and possibly others).

As for changing it to discipline, I think that is a poor idea. Discipline is already a skill that Force Users should be investing experience into. I don't think it is wise to change the skill used to accomplish a task to something the character already invests into significantly. One aspect I enjoy in an RPG is being forced to decide which way I want to improve my character specifically. Someone who wants to be a strong force user may need to delay the ability to fully modify a lightsaber to become more attuned with the force. Conversely someone can invest in mechanics and create a very strong lightsaber and become quite proficient at repairs and so forth. Having one skill cover so many aspects eliminates these sort of decisions because you just pick the Swiss Army knife skill.

The only canon example of lightsabers being make The Gathering shows that no tools are used in the creation of a Lightsaber.

on the next point Discipline with out the difficulty reduction to me at least seem just as balance as Mechanical with it.

For someone who spent the better part of this thread complaining that people didn't address the point, you sure did a good job and doing the same thing.

Please don't take the wrong way I'm just asking what point did I not address ?

You stated your view on how you see modding a crystal, I don't share your view and have already stated my view on it in multiple post so was not going to repeat it.

So I gave an example of why I have that view.

and then you stated that Mechanical skill was used as a balancing factor which I don't disagree with.

If the Mechanical was working so well for this they would not have had to add the cost reduction.

and that brings about my statement that Discipline with out the cost reduce is just as balanced.

was there something I missed ?

Your concern is that "modifying the crystal doesn't feel like mechanics" is based on something I don't understand. That is the big reason everyone is focusing on your second concern. You never really explained why it doesn't feel that way. To me, the idea of modifying a crystal most likely is one of two things. It is the way it is positioned inside the hilt or the physical makeup of the crystal itself. The crystal would likely be scratched or sculpted to change the physical shape in a manner different than how it started. This process would require a tool kit (something clearly associated with the mechanics skill). I'm not saying these are the only possible ways but are the two that came to mind for me specifically. That is why your original statement that it didn't "feel" right doesn't make sense to me (and possibly others).

As for changing it to discipline, I think that is a poor idea. Discipline is already a skill that Force Users should be investing experience into. I don't think it is wise to change the skill used to accomplish a task to something the character already invests into significantly. One aspect I enjoy in an RPG is being forced to decide which way I want to improve my character specifically. Someone who wants to be a strong force user may need to delay the ability to fully modify a lightsaber to become more attuned with the force. Conversely someone can invest in mechanics and create a very strong lightsaber and become quite proficient at repairs and so forth. Having one skill cover so many aspects eliminates these sort of decisions because you just pick the Swiss Army knife skill.

The only canon example of lightsabers being make The Gathering shows that no tools are used in the creation of a Lightsaber.

on the next point Discipline with out the difficulty reduction to me at least seem just as balance as Mechanical with it.

For someone who spent the better part of this thread complaining that people didn't address the point, you sure did a good job and doing the same thing.

Please don't take the wrong way I'm just asking what point did I not address ?

You stated your view on how you see modding a crystal, I don't share your view and have already stated my view on it in multiple post so was not going to repeat it.

So I gave an example of why I have that view.

and then you stated that Mechanical skill was used as a balancing factor which I don't disagree with.

If the Mechanical was working so well for this they would not have had to add the cost reduction.

and that brings about my statement that Discipline with out the cost reduce is just as balanced.

was there something I missed ?

My post was entirely about not wanting a single skill to "rule them all." You said nothing about it at all, only that you are increasing the difficulty to compensate. That does not address my point at all as your change does exactly what I said I thought the problem was, moving things into a skill that is already a priority to lessen the burden of a skill you don't like.

So far all we have ever seen in any shows is the first time construction of a lightsaber. Which in no way tells us anything about modding them or fine tuning them. No one has ever defined exactly what modding the crystal means. could be placing the crystal in the optimal position. could be modifying the shape. Since we don't know what it is how do you know it is discipline. And I really have to agree with Otter Jethro. Part of the game balance in this system isJedi need a lot of different skills and other XP sinks. So that while a Jedi can be amazing they are not as focused as other characters which allows other characters to compete. And you never addressed the flaw in your system. It makes fully modding an ilum crystal not really possible as you run in to the difficulty cap.

Your concern is that "modifying the crystal doesn't feel like mechanics" is based on something I don't understand. That is the big reason everyone is focusing on your second concern. You never really explained why it doesn't feel that way. To me, the idea of modifying a crystal most likely is one of two things. It is the way it is positioned inside the hilt or the physical makeup of the crystal itself. The crystal would likely be scratched or sculpted to change the physical shape in a manner different than how it started. This process would require a tool kit (something clearly associated with the mechanics skill). I'm not saying these are the only possible ways but are the two that came to mind for me specifically. That is why your original statement that it didn't "feel" right doesn't make sense to me (and possibly others).

As for changing it to discipline, I think that is a poor idea. Discipline is already a skill that Force Users should be investing experience into. I don't think it is wise to change the skill used to accomplish a task to something the character already invests into significantly. One aspect I enjoy in an RPG is being forced to decide which way I want to improve my character specifically. Someone who wants to be a strong force user may need to delay the ability to fully modify a lightsaber to become more attuned with the force. Conversely someone can invest in mechanics and create a very strong lightsaber and become quite proficient at repairs and so forth. Having one skill cover so many aspects eliminates these sort of decisions because you just pick the Swiss Army knife skill.

The only canon example of lightsabers being make The Gathering shows that no tools are used in the creation of a Lightsaber.

on the next point Discipline with out the difficulty reduction to me at least seem just as balance as Mechanical with it.

For someone who spent the better part of this thread complaining that people didn't address the point, you sure did a good job and doing the same thing.

Please don't take the wrong way I'm just asking what point did I not address ?

You stated your view on how you see modding a crystal, I don't share your view and have already stated my view on it in multiple post so was not going to repeat it.

So I gave an example of why I have that view.

and then you stated that Mechanical skill was used as a balancing factor which I don't disagree with.

If the Mechanical was working so well for this they would not have had to add the cost reduction.

and that brings about my statement that Discipline with out the cost reduce is just as balanced.

was there something I missed ?

My post was entirely about not wanting a single skill to "rule them all." You said nothing about it at all, only that you are increasing the difficulty to compensate. That does not address my point at all as your change does exactly what I said I thought the problem was, moving things into a skill that is already a priority to lessen the burden of a skill you don't like.

I'm sorry I took that as you perception of the game that's why I was not going to argue it but here goes.

Most careers in the game beside the Jedi have "One skill to rule them all"

Ace-Piloting

Hired gun-range

Mechanic- Mechanical

etc.

Jedi have- lightsaber, mechanical, discipline, and a skill dependent on there career so I still don't see the problem with dropping one