Hello boys ! Just a bit of a discussion thread regarding squadrons

First of all, a disclaimer : I'd rather if we don't discussion the specifics of which squadrons to choose, but rather discuss the number of them. We all know the powerful builds out there and I don't think we really need a thread to talk about that

In the past weeks, I've clocked a fair number of games with Wave 1 and Wave 2 ships, both Rebels and Imperials, with different squadron builds in the fleet. Of these games, two were particularily interesting :

1) Yesterday, I initiated a new player to Armada with 300 points and chose a very "safe" list to learn the Imperials : Tarkin, 2 Victories and 7 squadrons (one Vic had Expanded Hangars).

2) Today, a 400 points game where I played Rebels with an AFMK2 A. The AFMK2 A is a weird ship because it's not specialized in ship to ship combat, and looks like a stronger version of the Neb Escort : it's able to activate the same number of squadrons, and it has the same anti-fighter barrage. I did not have any squadron for it to command, except the odd squadron here and there due to Garm's command tokens.

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Now, a few observations from these games :

1) Squadrons (except maybe the Firesprays in a Fireball configuration) don't have the firepower to carry the general game : except against other squadrons, they take less advantage of each dice due to not using accuracies, except in the case of black dice with Bomber. Moreover, they are so short ranged that in order for a squadron to have the same reach as a ship it needs to be speed 4 (so that it's within range 1).

2) The 300 Imperial Fleet that maxed out the number of squadrons it could activate was very enjoyable in terms of flexibility : sure I did have Tarkin with Liaisons, but activating squadrons felt like a very good tool to have for each ship, they can still score points by killing the enemy squadrons and can contribute here and there to the total damage.

3) If your ships has the ability to activate squadrons, but has no squadrons to activate, it loses one order amongst its selection. Is that bad ? I don't know, but there are sometimes where my AFMK2 A could have used a squadron Command to take advantage of a break, but did not have any squadron to command.

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All these observations have led me to one question that I'd love to discuss with you guys : Do you think a fleet should maximise the number of squadrons it can activate (even including Rogues) through squadron commands, in order to gain extra flexibility when choosing orders ? And that means, even if your ship isn't a dedicated carrier.

I can't quite answer this question on my own (and I don't think anybody will !), but let's share arguments and examples from battles so we can each make up our mind

A few arguments for :

1) The number of squadrons you can activate is built into the points cost of your ship, so by not taking squadrons you're actually wasting potential points.

2) Squadrons, much like ships, are at a risk of dying. So, it means that even if squadrons die, you still have the ability to activate some more with your ship that has upgrades actually benefitting squadrons.

3) Squadrons can score points by killing other squadrons, and even if it isn't much, 24 points of TIEs killed is 95% of the MOV to get a 6-4 and 10% of the MOV to get a 9-1 which isn't insignificant as a TIE breaker (see what I did there ? )

4) In ships that require to be at shorter ranges to deal their most damage, squadron commands allow them to hit down range.

5) In fleets with no squadrons, they're at a definitive advantage.

6) Due to the way defense tokens work (especially Brace), more attacks has a slight advantage over fewer attacks that are more powerful.

A few arguments against :

1) Squadrons take up valuable fleet points that you could spend on an extra ship or on valuable upgrades.

2) Squadrons can die easily to other squadrons and provide victory points for your opponent.

3) Due to them needing a squadron command in many cases, they are dead weight in terms of points in some turns.

4) Points for points, they are less efficient against ships than ships or ship centric upgrades.

5) In fleets with a small elite fighter force, they're a liability.

Yet, I'm still starting to feel that maximizing the squadron value in fleet design is the way to go, even if it includes a lower number of ships.

If we look at the World Championship winner, he did maximize his fleet's worth of squadrons activations (well, almost, he had 8 A-Wings our of 9 total activations) and that brought him quite a bit of firepower which allowed him the win in the final round (against a no squadron list).

Let's look at a few examples that we've all encountered in games :

1) Victory Destroyers against fast nimble ships that dodge the firing arcs where even Nav Commands can't get into range, squadron commands could mitigate the lack of ability to place the shots even on a gunman ship.

2) Nebulon-Bs being jumped on by a Gladiator without B-Wings nearby to punish the enemy if they jump in.

3) You don't know what the hell the "Squadron 2" on the AFMK2 is used for.

4) Imperial Star Destroyers hitting on a fresh hull zone with a full compliment of defense token and only scratching the opponent's shields due to Brace/Redirect shenanigans, even with XI7.

5) CR90s flanking their target and only being able to get side arc shots.

6) Gladiators flanking Neb Bs with a B-Wing escort who wish they took 2 TIE to tie the B-Wings up

7) Raider needing help in anti-squadron, because let's face it, even 2 black dice can't deal more than 2 damage.

With all that, I tend to believe that maximizing possible squadron activations is the way to go, but I'm curious to see what you guys think !

Personal experience as an Imperial player is leading me away from Squadron heavy lists, to get enough out of your squadrons, you have to make your ships virtually ineffective at dealing damage themselves.

I recently played with this fleet ( Imperial I : Motti : Wulff Yularen : Boosted Comms, Expanded Hangar Bays : Relentless ) Imperial I (Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, Expanded Hangar Bays) Howlrunner, 4x Tie Interceptor, Major Rhymer, 5x Tie Bomber.

The Idea being to use one Imperial I with the Howlrunner/TI mob, and the other with Rhymer/TB, with Wulff allowing me to activate all 6 each round. Howlrunner and the TI spent the entire game fighting with Han and A wings, the end result being one A wing left with 1 hp and the everything else dead. Giving my Bombers free reign for the entire match, and it took me the entire game to kill one MC30, last round Major Rhymer had a shot at a CR90 with one hit point, i rolled and hit, he used his evade to make me reroll at close range (Mon Mothma) and it came up blank, even if I had took out the CR90, it would have been a draw (something like 2 points between what he lost and what I lost) as it was I lost by 43 points.

As for the 2 Imp I's facing a Mon Mothma led fleet (AFMKII, 2x MC30, 1xCR90B) having no real offensive upgrades meant I struggled to cause damage with the ships.

I have always used squadrons, (4 Imperial Squad packs, and 4 Rogues and Villains) but I am finding them to be more and more a disappointment, to the point now I am playing either no Squadron Fleets, or just a token screen, and having much more consistent success at killing Rebel ships.

No doubt this will continue for me, until I get bored and then I will be back to heavy Squadron builds trying to make them work.

Interesting feedback ! It really shows the point that squadrons are just a supporting role against ships. I have to say that I was disappointed with Rebel squadrons as well, but I was expecting way too much from them, and as soon as I started looking at them as a cool support element for my ships I was then a lot less dissatisfied with their performance.

Perhaps you were splitting your firepower ? Did Rhymer and his crew spend the entire game alone to kill an MC30, or was it being shot at by the Star Destroyers as well ?

I only had 2 ship activations vrs 4 enemy ship activations, and I was 2nd player, so not the best position to be in right off the bat.

The side and rear arcs of Imp I's are lackluster firing at med/long range at a Mon Mothma led fleet, I think the entire game I got one PBR frontal arc shot off, the rest was side & rear arcs, his ships were all moving speed 3/4 making it hard because they were flying away behind me, meaning even with boosted comms, I had to keep the bombers in effective range, so mid game they had to switch to his 2nd MC30, after they had reduced shields, and caused 1 point of damage to the other MC30, the 2nd MC30 is the one that died, I nearly killed his CR90 in 2 rounds, but it escaped with 1 hp left, no shields, no def tokens.

So even with firing 6 bombers first, the side arc at med range is 2 red dice, and it can evade 2 red dice at med range with one evade token (Foresight) not much doing there, rear arc was similar, 2 blue 1 red, 1 accuracy, 2 damage, he evaded 2 dice again.

To be fair, my opponent pool is rather small at the moment, perhaps against someone else with a different fleet, build my fleet would have been much more effective, but it was not just a one off, this has been percolating in my thoughts a a few months of games now.

When I maximize my squadron use, I still only use one ship to activate them. I have 7 squadron activations before the squadron phase. Han Solo is 1. Using the MC80 Command Ship with expanded hangers and Antilles for an additional 6. Pretty efficient.

@EasternKing : Ah yeah, the Rebel tricked you into moving up, opening your flanks and rear wide. I don't know if he had much of a punch at long range based on what you say, but usually the trick is to slow down against these kind of lists and let them come. It makes flanking and countering much harder.

Agreed on the side arcs of the Imperial 1, they aren't super impressive against small ships. Against medium and large ships though, you're usually able to line up a double arc shot and it is pretty effective

To back up what Daniel said I really think that two large ships specced out just for squadrons is too limiting. Now that we have R&V I don't see any reason not to carry a mix of squadrons which require activations and those who don't. My gut tells me that the next Wave will have some cheaper high squadron value ships.

I for one am very glad that it seems that squadrons are back with Wave 2. I don't think I would play a match without at least around 100 pts worth of squadrons (or squadron role functioning ships).

3x AF2 with Ackbar with at least 6x A-wings or more. is quite potent.

And there is still space for for some ship upgrades

The main idea is that all the AF2's can act as Fleet carriers, so if one is singled out by the enemy, it can concentrate on spamming Repair commands and fight as a gunship (thanks to the Ackbar effect). While the other two can spam squadron commands.

Having at least 2 or more black dice picking away on your shields per turn + the Ackbar effect, really forces your opponent to take some hard decisions.

Or they can take turns making squadron commands and Repair commands or any other command, working in a sort of relay.

The problem with a dedicated carrier is you end up with a ship that cannot navigate for turns 3-5 due to spamming squadrons. Not always an issue as most of the time it can just sit at speed 2. However, having a way to spread the squadron love about your ships is beneficial. Garm and Tarkin specialise in this as they either make navigate/CF available via token or give you bonus activations, at the very least taking the pressure of.

Gonna through out my new tagline here.

Raymus Taintive.

All ships can spam squadron safe that they can have their navigate/cf tokens from him.

The problem with a dedicated carrier is you end up with a ship that cannot navigate for turns 3-5 due to spamming squadrons. Not always an issue as most of the time it can just sit at speed 2. However, having a way to spread the squadron love about your ships is beneficial. Garm and Tarkin specialise in this as they either make navigate/CF available via token or give you bonus activations, at the very least taking the pressure of.

Gonna through out my new tagline here.

Raymus Taintive.

All ships can spam squadron safe that they can have their navigate/cf tokens from him.

Completely agree with you ! When you put all your eggs into a single squadron basket, without Rogues you're giving free reins to the opponent to use his squadrons as long as the carrier ship is gone. Which is why the new line of thought I was going to try was to have each ship capable of throwing squadrons.

Actually like you say, it's Garm and the tokens that kind of led me to think that Having a CR90 able to activate its squadron without sacrificing its dial is pretty cool !

I'm glad that you guys share this approach with having as many squadrons as you have squadron values, it might not be too far fetched after all

I generally agree with your overall concept. Maximizing squadron activations and having backup carriers is important in squadron centric fighting. While others see the squadron command as a dead command, I see it as the best command available by far. It adds more firepower and flexibility than any command on the game. And yes, Garm is the best Rebel commander for squadrons because of all those lovely tokens.

I want to take a moment to correct a couple myths though:

Squadrons (except maybe the Firesprays in a Fireball configuration) don't have the firepower to carry the general game : except against other squadrons, they take less advantage of each dice due to not using accuracies, except in the case of black dice with Bomber. Moreover, they are so short ranged that in order for a squadron to have the same reach as a ship it needs to be speed 4 (so that it's within range 1).

4) Points for points, they are less efficient against ships than ships or ship centric upgrades.

5) In fleets with a small elite fighter force, they're a liability.

@Truthiness : Very valid points. I should have added the B-Wing and maybe Scurrg (which I don't know much I'll admit) to the list of exceptions With any ship that have a 2 dice anti ship battery, your point holds true.

Regarding plinking though, our mileage may differ I've noticed that my squadrons have a propensity to roll blanks much higher than average in my games Except Tycho, he never misses anything in my games and causes bad luck to the opponent (last game he tanked and took down 2 Firesprays on his own over 3 turns and he left the game with 1 HP and no defense tokens. He's my MVP haha ).

Regarding point 4 : I'm not sure about the math to be honest, I'd like to take a look at it before I comment. But you might have a point here. Although, if we compare buying a TIE Bomber versus an XI7 to the ship, it might be another story. On the base hulls there might be a point

Regarding point 5 : I was indeed talking about numbers, much like the example you've quoted. I'm looking at it in terms of survivability versus points invested, and even aces with Scatter are pretty easy to take down by throwing multiple units at them (which is what you're likely going to do against regular squadrons anyways).

This boils down to a much more enveloping statement:

Redundancy is flexibility.

The question is do you want redundant activation slots, or redundant squadrons?

I lean to the former as I can use those activations for other jobs, such as engineering or CF.

This boils down to a much more enveloping statement:

Redundancy is flexibility.

The question is do you want redundant activation slots, or redundant squadrons?

I lean to the former as I can use those activations for other jobs, such as engineering or CF.

It is a good point. The question is : do you need to activate all of your squadrons in every single turn in every single game ?

I guess it really depends on the match up and the strategy. One key drawbacks of maximizing the activation slots is that you'll have to time your commands more astutely than with more specialized builds.

BTW

Last I recall AFMK-A and AFMK-B have different squadron values!!! I learned this the hard way.

Not only do you want X squadrons to meet X Squadron Command Value I beleive you want those squadrons to be the best they can be for bombing purposes.

I started with generic bombers Wave 2. I don't think I will ever go down that path again. My main carrier right now is Wulf/VSD 1/Bossted Comms. Thats for 4. Rhymer/Bobba/x2 Firesprays is what I hope to use each time. The double dice is way more consistent that single Black. You pay for it but there is no other way I will approach bombers anymore. Same for Rebels, Scrugg x3/Jan. These are my default Bomber balls if I'm thinking of taking bombers.

The top 4 from yesterday CanCon 23 (attendance) was 2nd Imp 134 squad (no fireball) 3rd Imp 133 (fireball), 4th Reb Scrugg/Jan. 1st interstingly was all ship 3 Glad/ISD. Call it the SapceCon Special