I actually support the idea of a pro tour. I do think Xwing needs some cleaning up however I feel that most of the people who complain are out of their league when saying they are worried about WAAC players. Even if you do happen to make it to the top you are under a microscope from then on. As this game grows I expect players to want something like this outside of the FFG season.

I don't think there's enough money for it.

What does WAAC stand for?

Also, if you were competing for money, especially lots of money, the game board could be enhanced. Boards could be made of different materials that would prevent slippage, and magnets could be used. Electronic range rulers would show lights on both ends that would be keyed to the electronics in the ship's bases and would show definitive "in range" or "out of range". However, I don't think we are at that point yet, or that the game will really ever get to that point. It's strength is in the fun and casual aspect, and it's too far of a leap to go to the way of professional tours.

An electronic board that read the position of a ship via magnets in the base (that also mitigated bumping) would go a long way toward taking the fudginess out of the game for very competitive events. It could calculate ranges, arcs, movement etc. Or you could do for-money events on Vassal, but that's not nearly as fun.

What does WAAC stand for?

Win At All Costs - basically the opposite of Fly Casual.

I think that the largest reason that there will not be an x-wing pro tour in the foreseeable is that the pro tour is effectively a giant advertising campaign for MTG and x-wing's sales model is not conducive to that type of advertising and probably can't support an advertising campaign that costs that much.

Now you might say, hey, the Pro Tour isn't an ad campaign, it's a high level tournament in which the greatest players in the world compete in magic for the world to see. While that is true, wizards of the coast is dumping a HUGE amount of money into the Pro-Tour and probably only gets a very small fraction of that back in ad revenue from streaming. They pay out thousands of dollars in prizes, but that is only the surface of their expenses. They are also paying appearance fees and plane tickets for a lot of pro players. They are paying judges. They are paying to rent a venue. I hope we can all agree that they are barely making a dent in this amount of money with twitch ad click throughs.

Now to the topic of why this won't work for x-wing's sales model. If a magic player wanted to have all of the cards necessary to play any list possible in the current standard cycle, they would have to shell out literally thousands of dollars. Thus, magic players generally only buy a deck or two that they are interested in buying. Now lets look at x-wing. If a player wanted to have access to every possible list here, a player would have to spend a similar thousands of dollars. The major difference is that most players in competitive x-wing already buy at least one copy of each expack and they dont rotate out, they are here with you forever. In magic this is not the case. To keep current in magic's Standard format, you have to buy a new deck every year. Generally this will involve very little to no overlap with your last list.

How does this affect sales due to large tournaments, you ask? If you see a deck at the MTG pro tour that you like and you want to buy it, you go online and order it for 300-600 for a standard deck. Whatever third party seller you bought that from generally opens a couple hundred bucks worth of sealed product to get these cards plus other current high value cards to sell to other players. This is money going directly into WotC's pocket. This happens at 4 pro tours a year and one world championship, along with a ton of grand prixs. Also there are two times those cards rotate of the format a year to force you to buy new cards.

Firstly, x-wing has no such rotation system, eliminating any need to buy more than a couple of new ships to add to your still valid collection each release cycle. Secondly, even if people did start buying ships based on world's lists, most people own significant portions of the lists and would just be picking up odds and ends to fill in the gaps. The most extreme example of needing to buy multiple things that are not frequently owned would be KO's danger zone list from worlds 2015. If you had one k-wing and one phantom before hand (a reasonable assumption as I think few people bout large numbers of those two ships) you would have to spend a grand total of $70 dollars at retail price or closer to 50 at discount rates to buy that list. Not exactly the big bucks coming from magic AND you still have those K-wings and phantoms the next time you want to build a list you see in a tournament that is centered around either of them or around their upgrade cards. Not exactly raking in money like the MtG pro tour.

TL:DR No, that would never work because it is not monetarily worth it for FFG.

Even without cash prizes people will still want to win, the more popular X-Wing gets, the less Fly Casual you will see at tournaments; I'm afraid what triggered the introduction of the suspension list is just the beginning. As the community grows, FFG will find it increasingly hard to run a world-level competition without attracting people who REALLY, REALLY want to win it.

That being said, without a huge redeisgn, I don't feel x-wing is ready for true professional play. There are many placesin x-wing where a player could break the rules , on purpose or not (bumping ships, misreading arc/range, damage deck etc.). In pro play, stuff like that would have to be penalized. If the penalty is severe, you will see games won/lost on unintentional technicalities. If not, people will break the rules on purpose(like it happens in many sports). If the punishment for bumping Soontir out of a fully modified range 1 shot us less than ' blow up Soontir', then it's only logical to 'accidentally' bump him.

At the same time, having entry to the highest level of tournament be tied to who has the best luck with clogged bandwidth is no way to function, and quite honestly just shameful. Tell me I can't play because I didn't qualify, but don't give the highest level of tournament to just any player.

Horrible idea. As soon as money becomes a prize "Fly Casual" will be tossed out the window.

Just look at the WAAC players we already have playing for acrylic tokens and alt art cards!

Please support your claim.

Magic has cash prizes and several casual players that simply don't attend those events. Golf has a pro tour and we can play casual tournaments and just casual games whenever. WAAC players are always going to be in everything. There is no way around them. How many casual gamers enjoy tournaments because of prize support? I a would not suggest a Pro tour in lieu of local tournaments but rather in addition to them. Perhaps even not allowing pro tour players the opportunity to play in store championships? Maybe they are allowed at a regional and up level to prevent a WAAC environment at lower levels of competition. Just spit balling ideas more than anything. I also want to make sure it is understood I am not simply writing you off but that deeper explanation would be appreciated.

It's funny that you only consider posts that agree with you to be constructive and that you keep telling people to "support your claims" when you have done no such thing yourself. What exactly do you expect us to do? Cite scientific journals with data to back up our opinions?

MTG is a horrible example, WAAC and cheating is a big deal... so much so that people posts articles on it!

http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2014/11/cheating-in-mtg/

https://wizardryfoundry.com/cheating-lying-and-other-controversy-at-the-pro-tour/

You can find endless examples of these. Do a quick google search and you'll find forums talking about cheaters in these games and Youtube has bunches on videos of MTG cheaters.

With FFG I can honestly only remember one major cheater and he's already been banned. I'd rather that situation didn't get worse with money on the line.

In regards to the post about cheaters; yeah, some people suck. You are going to find that anywhere. Tom Segura said it best with something similar to "No, some places are shittier than others and the people there suck." I won't write off that it probably isn't a coincidence that you see more people cheat when money is on the line. You also get some of the best competition when money is on the line too though. Professional athletes can do things today that would've seemed impossible and while you can't say money is the cause for all of it (science has advanced, love of the game, new information on training and diet) I don't think it is fair to day that money as a motivator hasn't push people to a new level of ability.

FFG niether has the policy nor temperament to support a "Pro Tour".

For instance, only one of FFGs games (Netrunner) has floor rules. No other games event rules or FAQ would stand up to that level of competitive play. Most recently you have the whole large ship "typo" in the recent update, that type of stuff wouldn't stand up to the expectations of a Pro Tour. FFG does not have a Judges program, at all. FFG allocates Store Championships and Regionals out to venues with absolutely no vetting process for the TOs and any other people helping run the event. There is no guarantee that the TO be at all familiar with the game, you just have to hope. FFG also does next to nothing to support the TOs, as I stated above no floor rules to refer to, and they've only recently developed event software. And that as of last Regional season did not work and featured an unannounced stealth change to the SOS tiebreakers. I mean think of that, an event run under different rules depending on whether you can get thier software to work.

They certainly haven't displayed the stomach for it. Look at the most recent Suspension Policy introduction. That was the result of actions that took place at Gencon and came to light in September. FFG was so ill-prepared for the idea that someone would go and cheat at thier games (which would certainly happen with more prizing on the line, though it is niave to say it doesn't occur regardless of money or not) that it took them 4-5 months to do anything about it. FFGs personal officiating within thier own events has frequently come up as lacking, specifically in how they deal with players acting outside the rules.

FFG is behind in thier ability to run thier amateur level tournament scene, let alone a professional circuit

Additionally, there is the simple fact that miniatures games that occur on a free form table are too inexact for professional level play. There is too much wiggle room in measurements, in the templates, and far too much ability to cheat by just bumping a model.

For all those reasons I would say the idea of an X-wing Pro Tour is an impossibility.

I appreciate that you looked through the thread, thought about your answer, and posted in a clear manner that requires little explanation or expanding.

Both positions (for and against a Pro-tour) have merit, for the simple fact that not everyone enjoys the same things or has the same motivations. A great many people would be turned off by the WAAC crowd that does in fact come with the territory when you start playing for money, a great many people would also be attracted by the elevated competitiveness that comes with professional play. It isn't a question with an objectively "right" answer.

I stopped playing MtG when I reached the topmost levels of the game, because I no longer enjoyed it. "Professional" necessarily includes it being a "Profession", and I already had a job. For ME a pro-tour would be an invitation to misery, but I know for others it is a very exciting possibility.

I agree with whomever said things are too easily manipulated. At a "pro" level, this is a game of millimeters. Of degrees of a firing arc. Of "balanced" dice. I can't think of any way that you could easily pull out all the possible ways to manipulate these items without doing a full programmed microsoft surface (the big one) style of game play. Where the computer keeps track of where all the asteroids are, where a sleeve doesn't nudge a ship unknowingly.

In Magic, you have known variables and can easily enforce rules infractions. Drew an extra card "mistakenly" or not? There's a penalty for that. Tapped your mana wrong? Another penalty and way to go about that. In x-wing, if you trip and fling everything off the table, the answer is "I think this was here, that was there, oh hell call a judge". There is nothing in the rules about what to do in this situation. Or what to do if one of your dice accidentally nudges an asteroid? Or if your opponent intentionally adjusts his ships ending location by placing it with a nub against the edge of the template?

I can't see a pro tour going well without policies in place for all conceivable infractions of the rules. And perfectly clear, non-bubbled, balanced dice. Of course. And naturally the below item:

But I would shell out plenty for a FFG approved, acrylic template and rock set, complete with 7 pairs of perfectly clear "tournament" items...

Both positions (for and against a Pro-tour) have merit, for the simple fact that not everyone enjoys the same things or has the same motivations. A great many people would be turned off by the WAAC crowd that does in fact come with the territory when you start playing for money, a great many people would also be attracted by the elevated competitiveness that comes with professional play. It isn't a question with an objectively "right" answer.

I stopped playing MtG when I reached the topmost levels of the game, because I no longer enjoyed it. "Professional" necessarily includes it being a "Profession", and I already had a job. For ME a pro-tour would be an invitation to misery, but I know for others it is a very exciting possibility.

Precisely the point of the thread. Not to necessarily eliminate ideas but to explore the angles that each position offers. I'm not even necessarily saying that it is a great idea to have one right now. I just wanted to talk about the possibility, feasibility, and the obstacles. Thanks for you input.

Did you actually play on the pro tour? Would you be willing to share your experiences that lead to an unsatisfying result?

I believe on the pro tour is where it became required for you to shuffle your mtg deck at least 15 (?) times, then pass your deck to your opponent and they had to shuffle it the same minimum number of times. Try that sometime, when your opponent presents their damage deck for you to cut it, take it and shuffle it for a minute. See how that removes the "fly casual" attitude? I accept that in Magic, because that's been that way for years now in Standard events. But I also remember Magic before that one simple little rule change, and it was more "fun". The first couple times it happened I actually felt a little flustered, because its different. But then you realize how rampant cheating led to this being the standard, and it doesn't seem so bad.

There's a penalty if you don't do this, specified in the Magic floor rules. And that is why I don't really like "pro" events, because all these little nuances cause rules lawyer type people to gain advantages over you based strictly on rules knowledge and enforcement. Its less of a "game of x-wing" and more of a "game of knowledge of all rules, up to the minute".

There is no requirement that you shuffle your deck X amount of times. There is a requirement to shuffle your opponents deck when handed to you, but that rule isn't enforced. It's there to ensure that players know that the option is available to them and not create an environment in which it could be considered insulting to shuffle rather then just cut.

Also, MTG has made changes recently to provide remedies to play errors as opposed to just infractions.

Irregardless though, having floor rules is better then no floor rules. Lack of floor rules and certified judges are huge deficiencies in FFGS OP.

When you say things like Pro Tour, I think you get a bunch of ideas that people jump too that might not be helpful to the game.

Pro tour to me means that you’re looking at a group of people who are invited, and then spend the rest of their lives traveling from tourney to tourney playing games (good work if you can get it)

FFG seems to have a fairly comprehensive tourney set up already with the Store Championships, Regionals, Nationals, World. It is what attracted me to this game most. If you feel this isn’t what you want to see, I think it would be something you would need to implement.

I think the question is what do you think this game gets with a Pro Tour?

There is no requirement that you shuffle your deck X amount of times. There is a requirement to shuffle your opponents deck when handed to you, but that rule isn't enforced. It's there to ensure that players know that the option is available to them and not create an environment in which it could be considered insulting to shuffle rather then just cut.

Also, MTG has made changes recently to provide remedies to play errors as opposed to just infractions.

Irregardless though, having floor rules is better then no floor rules. Lack of floor rules and certified judges are huge deficiencies in FFGS OP.

Good to know! I haven't actually played on the pro tour, just played some bigger tournaments and come up against people that are on said tour.

I do wonder because I've heard of this in x-wing, are there any cities with local roving trophies? Or invitational only type tournaments? I think the "pro tour" would be similar to some of these types of events...

Not a pro tour but it is the closest thing yet. I'd say the thread has some merit.

Expansion of the tournament circuit does not necessarily mean a pro circuit. As you can see, there is no direct cash involved.

I think your really reaching to hang your hat on that one.

It shows growth and that FFG is willing to go out of their comfort zone for the sake of expanding the game. Although it is not a pro tour it gives a greater chance to the possibility in the future.

It's a bigger amateur event, particularly a Euro centric one. It gives you no indication that in anyway that FFG would/would even be able to create and manage anything at a professional level. This doesn't even bring FFG up to the amateur level of things Warmachine has been doing for awhile now. I actually wonder if FFG is going to even be running these events themselves.

It shows growth and that FFG is willing to go out of their comfort zone for the sake of expanding the game. Although it is not a pro tour it gives a greater chance to the possibility in the future.

I don't think it does. They've talked about expanding options for X-wing and have generally been negative on the idea of the pro circuit.

(Assuming I remember this interview correctly and this was where he discusses both without being specific about what those expanded events would be).

They're current premiere event is World's and the only bar it has for entry is being able to attend and signing up first. The fact that that has not changed at all should be an indication of their desire (or lack thereof) for a pro-circuit by itself.

It shows growth and that FFG is willing to go out of their comfort zone for the sake of expanding the game. Although it is not a pro tour it gives a greater chance to the possibility in the future.

If you had been paying attention, you knew that they had plans for expansion. It was just obvious money was never going to be apart of it.