So my issue with the ranged and melee system it just seems like ranged is better well at least in my campaign. Like melee is 2 difficulty, but then come around the ranged person can just disengage to short range and blast you with a blaster rifle at only 1 difficulty. I know most lightsaber classes can use reflect and all. Unfortunately I chose to be a dual wielding Makashi duelist and even if I did take reflect in another tree everyone in the campaign argue that I cant have a lightsaber because "It would make the story more about me." So now I'm stuck with 2 ancient swords and a training lightsaber (I wasn't even allowed to start with 2 training lighsabers.) I guess my other question for any experienced GM's out there would be when would be a good time to allow lightsaber creation.

I've found Ranged attacks tend to be best for minions and rivals but Melee is key to messing up a nemesis. Against them critical hits are very important, and melee weapons cause those more easily (if not initially then with the right mods).

If you don't want to buy any Reflect have a think about buying the Sense power. Investing in the left hand column can make you very hard to hit.

Some of my deadliest players are/were melee/brawl users. Not lightsabers, not blasters. Vibroweapons with monomolecular edges are crit 1. They come with vicious. Outlaw Tech Blast Knuckles can do a lot of damage. Combine this with the fact that these skills are linked to Brawn and now these characters also have higher soaks and higher wound thresholds. Sure, blaster users can disengage. You can make this less likely to happen by knocking them down (one maneuver to stand), which is something that all brawl weapons have built in inherently, and some trees grant the talent to do this with Melee attacks. At the very least they will have to suffer strain or downgrade their action to stand up and disengage. I agree with Col. Orange about the critical injuries to nemeses. Sure, an autofire blaster can definitely exceed the wound threshold of a nemesis, but a vibroweapon can cut their head off. Or an arm. Or do that evil critical effect that staggers the target for the rest of the encounter, forcing the nemesis to flee, surrender, or die, unless as a GM you give every nemesis the Hardheaded talent, which would get old really quick. Also, it's really really hard to find sunder on ranged weapons. I want to say that there aren't any, but if I do, I may be wrong, so I'll just say that I don't think there are any. However, there are a few (non-lightsaber) melee/brawl options that do. Vibroaxes, a pair of Vamblades, and the Therm-ax to name three. And Vamblades are always considered ready. Also, you can't get the Defensive/Deflection qualities from ranged weapons (so far).

I'm not downplaying blasters, or anything for that matter. I'm trying to upsell melee/brawl. Neither one of them are a poor choice for how a PC wants to deal with combat encounters. Just like Scathing Tirade, Force powers, and blasters aren't poor choices.

And as for the other issue of "If you have a lightsaber then the campaign is only about you." That complaint only holds true if your group makes it hold true. A lightsaber will not break the game, and it shouldn't force the group to become your sidekicks. Will it create some new issues and narrative hooks? Sure. So will letting another player get a heavy repeating blaster. So will letting a force sensitive player with Scathing Tirade (Improved and Supreme) get to Willpower 6 and Coercion 5 with a few ranks of Intimidating and the Force Influence upgrade to add force dice to Coercion.

Trends and materials seem to suggest Lightsabers are ok around the 2nd or 3rd adventure depending on the games. Usually by that point all the non-forcees have a weapon that's (more or less) able to kick out similar damage.

I don't think there's a ton out there right now, but as the line expands this will no doubt be fixed: As a non-reflecter be on the lookout for items and powers that provide Defense or Deflection, or otherwise increase or upgrade the difficulty to attack you. If you can't remove damage with reflect, instead look at making yourself harder and more dangerous to attack.

and even if I did take reflect in another tree everyone in the campaign argue that I cant have a lightsaber because "It would make the story more about me."

Honestly, there's your problem.

If the GM knew you wouldn't be able to build/acquire a lightsaber during the course of the game, then that should have been made completely evident at character creation.

Next, having a lightsaber would hardly make your character the center of the story. And if your GM can't work out how that would be the case, again, that is their failing.

From experience, I can also say that melee does perform reasonably well in the system. Sure, the difficulty of the attack check is slightly higher, and there are maneuver related strategies at play, but the sheer damage output can't really be argued against. Monomolecular vibroblades, lightsabers having breach, etc.

Also, I'm not sure there should be an issue using parry/reflect with a training lightsaber. Heck, pretty sure parry works with melee weapons too.

This is a narrative system; while it is easier to hit people that way, it is possible over time to pick up talents that more or less erases the ease to hit between two characters. My current character with sense (RPSS) can use dodge*2 (RRPSS) and a destiny point (RRRSS) to more or less make attacking him more difficult, this is at his weakest range which is already looking pretty good.

There is also a couple things to consider.

Environment; NPC's can't always just disengage if narratively there's no where for them to go. One trap a DM/player often makes is making an engagement in a boring environment where one simply has to wipe out the other. Disengaging from combat also costs a move, which means they can't be doing other things, like denying attacks entirely (moving away) aiming and defensive actions (defensive stance or sidestep).

Ranged weapons have to penetrate through armour first, and for most part piece is really rare on ranged weapons, excluding specialist/really heavy weapons. Thus ranged has a slight boon in flexability in exchange for being fairly poor compared to LS combatants in damage dealing, and inferior to melee crits in general (though otherwise, melee has other perks, such as higher soaks and athletic abilities.) Lightsabers, when they do get tooled out, can most likely kill most adversaries in two hits unless they have parry/alternative ways to apply soak.

Unfortunately, your issue is that you have opted for the trap option. Training sabres are a poor substitute and it's generally best to pick a lightsaber tree second, rather then first unless you have the chance to obtain a real lightsaber. Knight level would allow you a basic saber, but otherwise it's best opting for another tree of interest until that point because you don't really start off as a Jedi in this system, rather you are a an adapt in the force or a lost soul trying to rekindle the force in his heart.

... everyone in the campaign argue that I cant have a lightsaber because "It would make the story more about me."

They probably whine about your Force Powers as well and your GM requires you to make extra rolls or nerfs their effect, right?

Show them this thread and let us tell your friends that their being jerks. This isn't WEGD6 or D20, the designers went to great lengths to keep a good balance between Force Users and non-Force using Careers. If they bother to look at DPS and other Skills, Talents, and weapons they will find in combat all the combat Careers shine just as bright if not brighter than you're average guy with a glowstick.

If they can't let you play by the rules and have a cool PC then politely bow out of the game and find some mature people to play with.

Aye, I agree that the expectation of never having a lightsaber is unreasonable. Like in the OT the story was barely about Luke at all because most of what he did actually had very little baring on how the battles developed; but it was a part of the ongoing proceedings that happened alongside the battles. Laiya, chewie and co escaped from cloud city independently of Luke's intervention, and his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor ensured the latter died.

It just depends what you mean, does that mean you will never get a lightsaber? Or you won't get a lightsaber yet? If the former, you definately have a right to complain and/or a character change. If the latter? You might have to be a little more broadly focused in the meantime on your face skills.

and even if I did take reflect in another tree everyone in the campaign argue that I cant have a lightsaber because "It would make the story more about me."

Honestly, there's your problem.

If the GM knew you wouldn't be able to build/acquire a lightsaber during the course of the game, then that should have been made completely evident at character creation.

Next, having a lightsaber would hardly make your character the center of the story. And if your GM can't work out how that would be the case, again, that is their failing.

From experience, I can also say that melee does perform reasonably well in the system. Sure, the difficulty of the attack check is slightly higher, and there are maneuver related strategies at play, but the sheer damage output can't really be argued against. Monomolecular vibroblades, lightsabers having breach, etc.

Also, I'm not sure there should be an issue using parry/reflect with a training lightsaber. Heck, pretty sure parry works with melee weapons too.

I guess i wasnt too clear lightsabers will be a thing it's just they way it seems is that we're all gonna get them at the same time which ofc everyone else is ok with that because none of them are invested in a lightsaber class tree however for me makashi duelist was my starting class with two ancient swords. Everyone says I complain about not having a simple training lightsaber to go with my other one which was my loot btw for our first boss fight. Meanwhile the other person got not 1 not 2 but 3 thermal detonators. Basically I complain cuz i dont have what i kinda need. They dont cuz they already have what they need

Some of my deadliest players are/were melee/brawl users. Not lightsabers, not blasters. Vibroweapons with monomolecular edges are crit 1. They come with vicious. Outlaw Tech Blast Knuckles can do a lot of damage. Combine this with the fact that these skills are linked to Brawn and now these characters also have higher soaks and higher wound thresholds. Sure, blaster users can disengage. You can make this less likely to happen by knocking them down (one maneuver to stand), which is something that all brawl weapons have built in inherently, and some trees grant the talent to do this with Melee attacks. At the very least they will have to suffer strain or downgrade their action to stand up and disengage. I agree with Col. Orange about the critical injuries to nemeses. Sure, an autofire blaster can definitely exceed the wound threshold of a nemesis, but a vibroweapon can cut their head off. Or an arm. Or do that evil critical effect that staggers the target for the rest of the encounter, forcing the nemesis to flee, surrender, or die, unless as a GM you give every nemesis the Hardheaded talent, which would get old really quick. Also, it's really really hard to find sunder on ranged weapons. I want to say that there aren't any, but if I do, I may be wrong, so I'll just say that I don't think there are any. However, there are a few (non-lightsaber) melee/brawl options that do. Vibroaxes, a pair of Vamblades, and the Therm-ax to name three. And Vamblades are always considered ready. Also, you can't get the Defensive/Deflection qualities from ranged weapons (so far).

I'm not downplaying blasters, or anything for that matter. I'm trying to upsell melee/brawl. Neither one of them are a poor choice for how a PC wants to deal with combat encounters. Just like Scathing Tirade, Force powers, and blasters aren't poor choices.

And as for the other issue of "If you have a lightsaber then the campaign is only about you." That complaint only holds true if your group makes it hold true. A lightsaber will not break the game, and it shouldn't force the group to become your sidekicks. Will it create some new issues and narrative hooks? Sure. So will letting another player get a heavy repeating blaster. So will letting a force sensitive player with Scathing Tirade (Improved and Supreme) get to Willpower 6 and Coercion 5 with a few ranks of Intimidating and the Force Influence upgrade to add force dice to Coercion.

I pretty sure one of them started with a heavy blaster rifle

Trends and materials seem to suggest Lightsabers are ok around the 2nd or 3rd adventure depending on the games. Usually by that point all the non-forcees have a weapon that's (more or less) able to kick out similar damage.

I don't think there's a ton out there right now, but as the line expands this will no doubt be fixed: As a non-reflecter be on the lookout for items and powers that provide Defense or Deflection, or otherwise increase or upgrade the difficulty to attack you. If you can't remove damage with reflect, instead look at making yourself harder and more dangerous to attack.

Mhm mhm mhm mhm i see... we have 105 exp so far, one has a heavy blaster rifle (9 base dmg), one is a force based so weapons dont' matter to him too much, and the other is a all around (a 3 in 4 attributes) pilot so...meh and I'm still stuck with 2 ancient swords and a TRAINING lightsaber. so of these 4 characters who's **** outta luck?

This is a narrative system; while it is easier to hit people that way, it is possible over time to pick up talents that more or less erases the ease to hit between two characters. My current character with sense (RPSS) can use dodge*2 (RRPSS) and a destiny point (RRRSS) to more or less make attacking him more difficult, this is at his weakest range which is already looking pretty good.

There is also a couple things to consider.

Environment; NPC's can't always just disengage if narratively there's no where for them to go. One trap a DM/player often makes is making an engagement in a boring environment where one simply has to wipe out the other. Disengaging from combat also costs a move, which means they can't be doing other things, like denying attacks entirely (moving away) aiming and defensive actions (defensive stance or sidestep).

Ranged weapons have to penetrate through armour first, and for most part piece is really rare on ranged weapons, excluding specialist/really heavy weapons. Thus ranged has a slight boon in flexability in exchange for being fairly poor compared to LS combatants in damage dealing, and inferior to melee crits in general (though otherwise, melee has other perks, such as higher soaks and athletic abilities.) Lightsabers, when they do get tooled out, can most likely kill most adversaries in two hits unless they have parry/alternative ways to apply soak.

Unfortunately, your issue is that you have opted for the trap option. Training sabres are a poor substitute and it's generally best to pick a lightsaber tree second, rather then first unless you have the chance to obtain a real lightsaber. Knight level would allow you a basic saber, but otherwise it's best opting for another tree of interest until that point because you don't really start off as a Jedi in this system, rather you are a an adapt in the force or a lost soul trying to rekindle the force in his heart.

Aye, I agree that the expectation of never having a lightsaber is unreasonable. Like in the OT the story was barely about Luke at all because most of what he did actually had very little baring on how the battles developed; but it was a part of the ongoing proceedings that happened alongside the battles. Laiya, chewie and co escaped from cloud city independently of Luke's intervention, and his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor ensured the latter died.

It just depends what you mean, does that mean you will never get a lightsaber? Or you won't get a lightsaber yet? If the former, you definately have a right to complain and/or a character change. If the latter? You might have to be a little more broadly focused in the meantime on your face skills.

We'll get them the only thing is it's completely GM controlled he won't even let me attempt to find the parts for the hilt or a simple training emitter. Another agrees with him and refers to "star wars lore" (building a lightsaber takes years of mastery of the force) and then everyone else just hops on the bandwagon saying "dont complain" or "all's i have is heavy blaster rifle and amod and I'm not complaining"

"all's i have is heavy blaster rifle and amod and I'm not complaining"

Seriously, this one's the dumbest thing I've heard in a very long time. Ask him/her if he/she even knows which game he/she is playing. ****, I bet he/she is a Sharpshooter, on top of it.

"all's i have is heavy blaster rifle and amod and I'm not complaining"

Seriously, this one's the dumbest thing I've heard in a very long time. Ask him/her if he/she even knows which game he/she is playing. ****, I bet he/she is a Sharpshooter, on top of it.

bounty hunter but same difference

It sounds like you're not having fun and most of that seems due to a different expectation to what the GM has imagined for the campaign. It sounds like an out of session discussion is needed between you and your GM. Tell him his campaign style is not what you had expected and the vision you have of your PC simply doesn't work the way things are going. Then give him a choice, ask him to make some very minor tweaks to his expectations, or let you re-spec to be more suitable to his campaign (don't cop an XP reduction either, his job is to ensure everyone is having fun and so far that's not been the case).

If he makes changes, awesome, you can continue on with the spec that had most intrigued you when you went through the books, if not then look through again and see if anything else jumps out at you. If you want to stick with melee combat there are quite a few choices that don't need Lightsabers, plus a couple of force powers. You can be an absolute melee monster for not much XP if you're interested. And if you're still looking to be social there are options for that too.

Warden is a great Brawling & Coercing Spec that keeps within FaD, Sense or Enhance to boost your Combat (pick up Enforcer for some great synergy)

Performer is a wonderful combination of Melee, Charm and Deception, with some fantastically cinematic talents, it would actually go very well with your Makashi Duelest if getting a Higher Force Rating isn't so important)

For the ultimate Melee Damag Dealer a Marauder with a VibroAxe is hard to beat (Pick up Aggressor or Infiltrator to really lay down the hurt)

Anyway there are some ideas, but talk out of session with your GM and say your just frustrated with where things are at.

Marauder+Doctor if you want to own anyone with your bloody small finger.

Sharpshooter+Gambler if you want them to cry.

And when they're crying, they'll offer you to go back to your Jedi with Lightsaber PC.

And you'll reject and laugh in their faces.

Or, easier: take the Bounty Hunter + Heavy Blaster Rifle dude and tell him for next combat he's gonna play your PC and you're gonna play his. After the combat, share impressions.

Sounds like your group is a bunch of jerks that don't want a Jedi in the group. I would recommend you drop out of the group because it's not fun being second fiddle to anyone. As for the comment from the GM that making a lightsaber takes years of mastery is complete bs. One of the first things that a Learner does to progress to Padawan is to build their first lightsaber. That's canon and nothing he can say will change it.

Indeed, either a new character, a change in group policy or indeed a group is in order. You can't be expected to maintain the same concept with that particular group mentality or, better yet offer to swap roles for a session to highlight just how underwelming this current arrangement is. Yes a lightsaber is a powerful tool, but one with powerful consequences, and a basic lightsaber is probably alright, most nemesis characters can take three hits from a 6 damage breach before they go down, and combat rarely lasts beyond 3 rounds unless it's a complicated battle anyway.

A heavy blaster rifle is pretty much on par with a lightsaber overall. If they won't let you change or adjust their mentality? Well, no roleplaying is better then bad roleplaying. Show them this subforum.

Finding the crystal for a lightsaber is the hard part, the machanical parts are actually really easy, while the crystal itself could be a plot hook.

Yeah, have to agree with the other posters that your GM is being an utter tool in this case.

I think the best suggestion would be to bow out of this campaign, since it's pretty clear you're not having fun and the GM has no interest in correcting the situation.

If you are free on Saturdays at 1 PM EST, my group meets on Google Hangouts and uses roll20 for the maps. We'd more than welcome another force user to the party.

Thank you all for your inputs fortunately for my GM he is a nice guy and so is everyone else though it may not have seemed that way. Our next session is soon and he usually dished out 15-25 exp (we're at 105 exp). If he doesnt introduce or atleast hint at lightsaber construction then I might have to show him this page.

Marauder+Doctor if you want to own anyone with your bloody small finger.

Sharpshooter+Gambler if you want them to cry.

And when they're crying, they'll offer you to go back to your Jedi with Lightsaber PC.

And you'll reject and laugh in their faces.

Or, easier: take the Bounty Hunter + Heavy Blaster Rifle dude and tell him for next combat he's gonna play your PC and you're gonna play his. After the combat, share impressions.

oops my bad I meant hunter we're only using Force and Destiny careers

Sounds like your group is a bunch of jerks that don't want a Jedi in the group. I would recommend you drop out of the group because it's not fun being second fiddle to anyone. As for the comment from the GM that making a lightsaber takes years of mastery is complete bs. One of the first things that a Learner does to progress to Padawan is to build their first lightsaber. That's canon and nothing he can say will change it.

GM didn't say that a player did whether or not he agrees I'm not entire sure if I know him he didn't want to take sides right then and there

Ahhh thats fair enough. ^^ I understand how sometimes the internet means certain things lost in translation.

Just as said, everyone should be having fun at the table and should have a little bit of a niche. As far as I am aware, a basic lightsaber shouldn't tresspass on anyone else's fun, otherwise it would be like forcing the Hunter to only use light blaster pistols. Just one blaster pistol, because han solo only used one. XD

. As for the comment from the GM that making a lightsaber takes years of mastery is complete bs. One of the first things that a Learner does to progress to Padawan is to build their first lightsaber. That's canon and nothing he can say will change it.

Ah my bad one of the players said that and i should probably rephrase it. He said it takes years of training in the force to build a lightsaber. Also out of curiosity how long does it take for a youngling to be ready to build a lightsaber