My players and I are in agreement of a house rule we are about to try. Instead of improved reflect and improved parry being their own talents we are going to try that whenever a character takes 3 ranks of Parry they also gain the ability of improved parry. Whenever a player takes 3 ranks of reflect they gain the ability improved reflect. When either shows up on a talent tree the character just gains another rain in it.

We are all in agreement that we don't want improved versions to be exclusive to only a few trees.

Are you asking us to critique your groups decision? Because I think most would agree that you should do whatever will create the most enjoyable game for your group!

As a critique though, as far as house rules go, it's not a bad idea. I'm not sure I would ever use it, but it's unlikely that it will damage balance very much.

Yes wanted critique or thoughts on it. It was to allow players to choose one or two lightsaber forms to get at least 3 reflects or 3 parrys to gain the improved version, but to not be focused being sticking picking one of two specs to get them.

Well the thing that comes to mind for me is you have now left a hole in several trees. and in some multiple holes. How are you gong to fix that?

Wherever improved reflect shows up in a tree the tree gets another regular reflect instead. Wherever improved parry shows up in a tree the tree gets a regular parry instead. Then supreme reflect and Parry remain the same

I think this is problematic for one specific specialization, as this house rule just about turns Niman Disciple (which has three ranks of Parry and Reflect) into the "gotta have it!" specialization for lightsaber wielders, as it pretty much offers everything that you'd need to replicate a Jedi in one single specialization; with one spec you get two very effective combat talents for what amounts to free, two instances of Defensive Training, and a Force Rating increase.

For a PC that wants to use a lightsaber, this suggested house rule ensures that there's pretty much zero reason to not take Niman Disciple (since it gives you both Discipline and Lightsaber as career skills) as their secondary spec, or even more likely as their primary spec given how much the career and spec skills line up with what one would expect out of a classic Jedi. Improved Reflect can be quite devastating in terms of boosting a 'saber wielder's offensive prowess, given the damage is based off what the attacker got; used against a blaster rifle or similar high-powered weapon and the attacker frequently winds up worse off than the PC in terms of damage taken. Improved Parry isn't quite as brutal, but the fact it's often used in tandem with a Breach 1 weapon that for most PCs can easily be modified to have a damage rating of 8 or 9 at least, that's still a lot of pain in one hit that most enemies can't do much to stop. It's going to skew the balance of power heavily in favor of those PCs that take a LS Form spec, especially with Improved Reflect and the Sense power's defensive Control Upgrade.

I personally think this suggested change fails the "why would I not take advantage of!?" litmus test, and is going to cause you as the GM more headaches down the line than it'd really be worth, especially as you're now putting a lot more power in the hands of the Jedi types, which often leads to them stealing the show from the other PCs, something that occurred in every other Star Wars RPG that's been published. WEG's D6 had it, with some GMs banning the lightsaber combat Force power (often the big contributor to Jedi types outshining the rest of a group), the various WotC d20 versions certainly had it (Saga Edition was notorious given how skill check bonuses often scaled faster than defense scores, especially at lower levels), but so far FFG has avoided, mostly by ensuring that by the point a PC has enough XP to pick up both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect, the rest of the group has used their XP to become similar powerful in their respective areas of expertise.

Of course, another question to ask in regards to this proposed house rule is that if you're handing out such a potent combat upgrade to the Jedi crowd, what are the PCs who aren't taking LS Form specs getting in terms of upgrades?

I must admit when I first suggested the idea to Kilcannon for all lightsaber specializations to gain the ability to reflect, as we have never seen a lightsaber trained force user not use improved reflect, I didn't consider the balance issue. I agree that it needs to remain as is, although I dislike that PCs need to take an extra specialization in Shien or Soresu just for a talent that very seldom comes into play. I won't rehash the improved reflect/broken argument, but I would like to see an option for lightsaber specializations as every lightsaber/force user displays it in the films and stories.

In fairness, a GM could use threat or despair to inflict strain on the NPC, which in turn could be described as the Force user reflecting attacks back at them.

Pretty sure the material that went in depth on the forms also said the most Jedi and Sith learned several as they progressed. So, by that logic, all examples of the use of improved parry/reflect in the films and books are multiple specs in game terms.

After considering the house rule a bit more, I'm amending my original answer to say I'm solidly opposed to the change. My primary issue arises from a specific form. Niman Disciple is already one of the better forms in my opinion. It's Talent, Draw Closer, is easily one of the most powerful combat talents in the entire FaD Corebook. It also has several other talents that are quite good: Sum Djem, Center Being, Force Assault. It is also the only saber form to provide the Force Rating talent to boost your FR. It also boasts a respectable defense against both ranged and melee weapons with 3 ranks each of Reflect and Parry. This last one is the issue though. On top of everything, your change would also give Niman Improved versions of both Reflect and Parry. This would seriously un-balance the saber forms to Niman holding a clear advantage over many, if not all, of them.

Pretty sure the material that went in depth on the forms also said the most Jedi and Sith learned several as they progressed. So, by that logic, all examples of the use of improved parry/reflect in the films and books are multiple specs in game terms.

I think my players, myself, and maybe others would be more agreeable on your theory if at least one more specialization had improved reflect. I think the idea only two out of six had it makes players all feel they have to go into the same 2 specs to get this one talent that many feel is needed to feel like a jedi that they grew to love and want to play. Many of my players try to be different from each other and also like having more than two options.

This rules basically says no one in your group should ever take Soresu

Oh I already scratched the house rule. My players and I are gonna try something else. If a player takes ataru or Shi'Cho and wants to substitute improved reflect for improved parry I am going to let them to give more options then two specs. Also this will still force those that want both improved talents to take another lightsaber form, but not be forced to all take the same

Pretty sure the material that went in depth on the forms also said the most Jedi and Sith learned several as they progressed. So, by that logic, all examples of the use of improved parry/reflect in the films and books are multiple specs in game terms.

I think my players, myself, and maybe others would be more agreeable on your theory if at least one more specialization had improved reflect. I think the idea only two out of six had it makes players all feel they have to go into the same 2 specs to get this one talent that many feel is needed to feel like a jedi that they grew to love and want to play. Many of my players try to be different from each other and also like having more than two options.

I suspect we will get a couple more specs in the career books. As we only have 6 and there are 7 base forms and then there is Vapaad and Jar Kai left as well.

In all fairness Soresu is more or less the basic form that most Jedi use or at least know, so to me that is why all Jedi we see can Improve Reflect.

Pretty sure the material that went in depth on the forms also said the most Jedi and Sith learned several as they progressed. So, by that logic, all examples of the use of improved parry/reflect in the films and books are multiple specs in game terms.

I think my players, myself, and maybe others would be more agreeable on your theory if at least one more specialization had improved reflect. I think the idea only two out of six had it makes players all feel they have to go into the same 2 specs to get this one talent that many feel is needed to feel like a jedi that they grew to love and want to play. Many of my players try to be different from each other and also like having more than two options.

The general problem here ..... a thing a lot of people seem to forget when comparing Jedi in this game with the Jedi we came to love ....... all those Jedi we're F'n boss. Like seriously. The Jedi that we all adored were not ordinary people. They were like Jedi on crack. They would have had a ton of XP dropped into them. They would have had 3 to 4 lightsabre fighting forms under their belt. Like seriously ..... those Jedi were the elite.

The problem is that FFG didn't want to represent those Jedi. Sooooooooooo the system doesn't. I think more people would be sasitfied with Jedi in this game if they looked at Jedi from the OT POV as opposed to TCW, PT, KotoR/TOR and numerous EU novels all of which depicted Jedi in their prime who were beyond epic.

Blackbirds theory is correct though, the Jedi we see knew more than one form. The fact that only 2 forms teach those skills would reflect that most Jedi also took those two forms. Which makes a lot of sense. You don't develop 7 different forms if all of them are going to have improved parry/reflect. But you do develop 7 different forms if you have 7 different ideas on lightsabre combat in general. In that regard logically you would only need those two talents in two forms and logically most Jedi would be trained in those two forms as per standard training.

Really if your idea of Jedi is to replicate the Jedi we all came to love and adore ..... you need to be sinking more XP into the PC's so that they can drop points into more than one form.

Pretty sure the material that went in depth on the forms also said the most Jedi and Sith learned several as they progressed. So, by that logic, all examples of the use of improved parry/reflect in the films and books are multiple specs in game terms.

I think my players, myself, and maybe others would be more agreeable on your theory if at least one more specialization had improved reflect. I think the idea only two out of six had it makes players all feel they have to go into the same 2 specs to get this one talent that many feel is needed to feel like a jedi that they grew to love and want to play. Many of my players try to be different from each other and also like having more than two options.

The general problem here ..... a thing a lot of people seem to forget when comparing Jedi in this game with the Jedi we came to love ....... all those Jedi we're F'n boss. Like seriously. The Jedi that we all adored were not ordinary people. They were like Jedi on crack. They would have had a ton of XP dropped into them. They would have had 3 to 4 lightsabre fighting forms under their belt. Like seriously ..... those Jedi were the elite.

The problem is that FFG didn't want to represent those Jedi. Sooooooooooo the system doesn't. I think more people would be sasitfied with Jedi in this game if they looked at Jedi from the OT POV as opposed to TCW, PT, KotoR/TOR and numerous EU novels all of which depicted Jedi in their prime who were beyond epic.

Blackbirds theory is correct though, the Jedi we see knew more than one form. The fact that only 2 forms teach those skills would reflect that most Jedi also took those two forms. Which makes a lot of sense. You don't develop 7 different forms if all of them are going to have improved parry/reflect. But you do develop 7 different forms if you have 7 different ideas on lightsabre combat in general. In that regard logically you would only need those two talents in two forms and logically most Jedi would be trained in those two forms as per standard training.

Really if your idea of Jedi is to replicate the Jedi we all came to love and adore ..... you need to be sinking more XP into the PC's so that they can drop points into more than one form.

The system does represent them. They just have a ton of XP. And everyone around them did as well. They all were probably running around with 600 xp or so. We also don't get to see their die rolls. Did they roll 2 force die and get 4 white pips or did they roll 3 force die and get 2 white pips and 2 black pips and earn conflict?

The general problem here ..... a thing a lot of people seem to forget when comparing Jedi in this game with the Jedi we came to love ....... all those Jedi we're F'n boss. Like seriously. The Jedi that we all adored were not ordinary people. They were like Jedi on crack. They would have had a ton of XP dropped into them. They would have had 3 to 4 lightsabre fighting forms under their belt. Like seriously ..... those Jedi were the elite.

The problem is that FFG didn't want to represent those Jedi. Sooooooooooo the system doesn't. I think more people would be sasitfied with Jedi in this game if they looked at Jedi from the OT POV as opposed to TCW, PT, KotoR/TOR and numerous EU novels all of which depicted Jedi in their prime who were beyond epic.

Blackbirds theory is correct though, the Jedi we see knew more than one form. The fact that only 2 forms teach those skills would reflect that most Jedi also took those two forms. Which makes a lot of sense. You don't develop 7 different forms if all of them are going to have improved parry/reflect. But you do develop 7 different forms if you have 7 different ideas on lightsabre combat in general. In that regard logically you would only need those two talents in two forms and logically most Jedi would be trained in those two forms as per standard training.

Really if your idea of Jedi is to replicate the Jedi we all came to love and adore ..... you need to be sinking more XP into the PC's so that they can drop points into more than one form.

The system does represent them. They just have a ton of XP. And everyone around them did as well. They all were probably running around with 600 xp or so. We also don't get to see their die rolls. Did they roll 2 force die and get 4 white pips or did they roll 3 force die and get 2 white pips and 2 black pips and earn conflict?

I suppose it would be more precise for me to say that this system doesn't do it out of the box. Most people don't start games at 600+ xp. But they don't lower their expectations either. They want to look like those Jedi's without realizing just how xp heavy those Jedi truly are. This system does the slow climb to power and as such I think it takes too long for most people who kinda want to be that awesome now. I also think people tend to forget how cookie cutter Jedi were. Most of them pretty much knew the exact same things, had for the most part uniform power and lightsabre forms. Personality is where many seemed to stand out. Or just innate fan appeal. In the grand scheme of things there isn't really nothing special going on with Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti, yet they are fan favorites.

For instance, I'm pretty sure Obi Wan in Ep I was closer to 1000 xp than he was 150 that Knight Play suggest.

The general problem here ..... a thing a lot of people seem to forget when comparing Jedi in this game with the Jedi we came to love ....... all those Jedi we're F'n boss. Like seriously. The Jedi that we all adored were not ordinary people. They were like Jedi on crack. They would have had a ton of XP dropped into them. They would have had 3 to 4 lightsabre fighting forms under their belt. Like seriously ..... those Jedi were the elite.

The problem is that FFG didn't want to represent those Jedi. Sooooooooooo the system doesn't. I think more people would be sasitfied with Jedi in this game if they looked at Jedi from the OT POV as opposed to TCW, PT, KotoR/TOR and numerous EU novels all of which depicted Jedi in their prime who were beyond epic.

Blackbirds theory is correct though, the Jedi we see knew more than one form. The fact that only 2 forms teach those skills would reflect that most Jedi also took those two forms. Which makes a lot of sense. You don't develop 7 different forms if all of them are going to have improved parry/reflect. But you do develop 7 different forms if you have 7 different ideas on lightsabre combat in general. In that regard logically you would only need those two talents in two forms and logically most Jedi would be trained in those two forms as per standard training.

Really if your idea of Jedi is to replicate the Jedi we all came to love and adore ..... you need to be sinking more XP into the PC's so that they can drop points into more than one form.

The system does represent them. They just have a ton of XP. And everyone around them did as well. They all were probably running around with 600 xp or so. We also don't get to see their die rolls. Did they roll 2 force die and get 4 white pips or did they roll 3 force die and get 2 white pips and 2 black pips and earn conflict?

I suppose it would be more precise for me to say that this system doesn't do it out of the box. Most people don't start games at 600+ xp. But they don't lower their expectations either. They want to look like those Jedi's without realizing just how xp heavy those Jedi truly are. This system does the slow climb to power and as such I think it takes too long for most people who kinda want to be that awesome now. I also think people tend to forget how cookie cutter Jedi were. Most of them pretty much knew the exact same things, had for the most part uniform power and lightsabre forms. Personality is where many seemed to stand out. Or just innate fan appeal. In the grand scheme of things there isn't really nothing special going on with Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti, yet they are fan favorites.

For instance, I'm pretty sure Obi Wan in Ep I was closer to 1000 xp than he was 150 that Knight Play suggest.

And many of the prominent Jedi in the movies were Guardians including Obi Wan.

Oh I already scratched the house rule.

Another option is to allow characters to do what Improved Reflect does but with a much higher Threat cost. Say 5 or 6. That way they can do it but those with the actual Talent can do it much more often. Talents that reduce Threat/Advantage costs are already in the system so it isn't that much of a stretch.

Just a thought

The general problem here ..... a thing a lot of people seem to forget when comparing Jedi in this game with the Jedi we came to love ....... all those Jedi we're F'n boss. Like seriously. The Jedi that we all adored were not ordinary people. They were like Jedi on crack. They would have had a ton of XP dropped into them. They would have had 3 to 4 lightsabre fighting forms under their belt. Like seriously ..... those Jedi were the elite.

The problem is that FFG didn't want to represent those Jedi. Sooooooooooo the system doesn't. I think more people would be sasitfied with Jedi in this game if they looked at Jedi from the OT POV as opposed to TCW, PT, KotoR/TOR and numerous EU novels all of which depicted Jedi in their prime who were beyond epic.

Blackbirds theory is correct though, the Jedi we see knew more than one form. The fact that only 2 forms teach those skills would reflect that most Jedi also took those two forms. Which makes a lot of sense. You don't develop 7 different forms if all of them are going to have improved parry/reflect. But you do develop 7 different forms if you have 7 different ideas on lightsabre combat in general. In that regard logically you would only need those two talents in two forms and logically most Jedi would be trained in those two forms as per standard training.

Really if your idea of Jedi is to replicate the Jedi we all came to love and adore ..... you need to be sinking more XP into the PC's so that they can drop points into more than one form.

Yeah the Jedi in the prequel films were really high level characters. Remember that all younglings are taught the basics of Shii-Cho. Once they become Padawans, they're permitted to either master Shii-Cho or choose a different form to pursue. Even those who focused on mastering Shii-Cho usually branched out a bit. Shii-Cho was canonically not great vs blasters, so it was common to branch out into a more blaster-defensive form (usually Sorezu or Shien).

I think episode 3 Obi-Won is a great example overall: He was skilled in the basics of Shii-Cho (as a youngling). He was very adept with Ataru (trained under Qui-Gon and Yoda as a padawan). Following Qui-Gon's death, he chose to focus on a more robust defense by mastering Sorezu. In the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Dooku was quite surprised by Obi-Won's mastery of Sorezu. He actually said that Obi-Won's defenses were nearly impenetrable! Anakin later found out the hard way just how strong they were.

Kilcannon and I have come to a solution, and I thought I'd share. We are not going to change any talent trees. In order to portray how almost all lightsaber trained Jedi use improved reflect, without the need to have Shien or Soresu styles, we are instituting a house rule that you can upgrade any talent to the improved version of that talent by spending a destiny point. If you have parry or reflect, and your opponent meets the threat/despair requirement, you may spend a destiny point to use improved parry or reflect. The rule also applies to any improved talent to balance with non force users.

Note: We have been using a house rule to portray how often fully trained Jedi improved reflect against minions, particularly in the prequels and animated shows. You may use improved reflect/parry if you have the actual talent, and your opponent roles a despair or threats appropriate to their rank. It may be activated against minions with one threat, rivals with two threats, and nemesis with the standard three threats. This talent may only be used once a round.

Any thoughts community? Unbalanced?

I still think handing out what is a very effective talent (Improved Reflect) for free is very unbalanced, but that it costs a Destiny Point helps mitigate the cost, but not enough to make it feel like it's properly balanced.

But I think you and Kilcannon are missing the very important point that PCs in Force and Destiny aren't intended to be properly trained Jedi. So they're not all going to have Improved Reflect.

My suggestion is if you want to replicate that we see those properly trained Jedi bouncing blaster bolts back at mooks, to use any Threat generated on the attacker's roll to inflict strain (which for minions and rivals equates to wounds), and a Despair result generated by a minion group to immediately take down a minion, narrating it as a reflected blaster bolt.