I can respect other peoples opinions, all I'm saying is that people often ignore the downsides of things that they like. Especially in light of their own arguments. Sure PWTs are tough. But so is an AT equipped Interceptor.

Here's the thing autothrusters are the answer to PWT they only exist because turrets made interceptors extinct.

But the main problem with that

is that PWT+EU = screw jousters

and Dodger+AT = screw turrets

so the power triangle Joust>Turret>Dodge>Joust

became

Joust<Turret>Dodge>Joust

and then AT came and it became

Joust<Turret<Dodge>Joust

With the advent of the tractor beam in combination with Imperial Veterans, I think the Decimator is probably even in a better spot.

Given how many likes you've received I assume I'm missing something obvious, but how do Tractor Beams help Decimators?

Oh, you mean because they won't care about the lost green die! Ah yeah. That's cool, I like Decimators.

I can respect other peoples opinions, all I'm saying is that people often ignore the downsides of things that they like. Especially in light of their own arguments. Sure PWTs are tough. But so is an AT equipped Interceptor.

Its not about them being tough to beat, they usually aren't, it is about how it is not elegant and breaks the rules in a way that is just frustrating. He literaly can't be outmanouvered, that is a fact.

But making him pay for his turret would have been elegant?

I'm afraid my position here has been mistook. I'm not arguing that PWTs need to rule the meta again. I'm arguing against fickles mindset that these elements have no place in the game. Fat Han totally has a place in the game, and now that there are valid counters to them, so do PWT equipped ships. Did some of those counters to PWTs exist before? Probably, but in less meaningful ways.

What's the point? The game is more like a living card game than anything else. Someone mentioned something about X-Wing being under constant development, and I think that's true. The way the overall meta has changed throughout the waves lends weight to this claim. Fat Han is a prime example. Here he comes and changes the way the game is played in a fundamental way. A lot of people dislike this and a lot of people just love flying around in their favourite ship. A few waves later and suddenly this PWT dominance comes to an end, thanks largely in part to things like Autothrusters. I think people forget about the ships too. I mean, it wasn't JUST Autothrusters that killed PWTs, was it guys?

Now the OP asks can Fat Han come back? Absolutely. Can people deal with him? Yes. Does he, and his fans, deserve derision for wanting to compete? Yes. No wait...

The fact that the game needed to be changed to accommodate for the PWT mechanic should be pretty indicative at how it doesn't fit

I'm glad thrusters are out and that ffg released fixes to make games v pwts somewhat more bearable, because they were pretty horrible wave 5 and on till the mov fix, but we should never have had to jump through those hoops in the first place

It doesn't take a genius to see how a derp turret firing at any angle and at all possible ranges is a bad idea in game so heavily dependent on maneuvering. Sure the turret gets to have fun, but without very specific upgrades his opponents do not. Lack of counterplay does not a good mechanic make

Jousters you can arcdodge

Soontir you can block or force over obstacles

PWTs, you have to buy specific ships/upgrades

At least now those upgrades exist. Ffg basically did the equivalent of sweeping dirt under a carpet. The game sure as hell looks better now, but the dirt's still there and every now and again someone might bring it up.

Secondly, stop conflating hate for a **** game mechanic with derision for the people who enjoy it. I do not have anything against the players, I simply cannot fathom why they enjoy such a thing. It's just like how I can't imagine anyone eating Brussels sprouts, if the appearance of said sprouts diminished the idea of food in general

It doesn't take a genius to see how a derp turret firing at any angle and at all possible ranges is a bad idea in game so heavily dependent on maneuvering. Sure the turret gets to have fun, but without very specific upgrades his opponents do not. Lack of counterplay does not a good mechanic make

It doesn't take a genius to see how a derp ace correcting it's course with precise knowledge of enemy position is a bad idea in game so heavily dependent on maneuvering. Sure the arcdodger gets to have fun, but without very specific tools like super-stress mechanic or over-the-top PS his opponents do not. Lack of counterplay does not a good mechanic make

Fixed that for ya'!

With the advent of the tractor beam in combination with Imperial Veterans, I think the Decimator is probably even in a better spot.

Given how many likes you've received I assume I'm missing something obvious, but how do Tractor Beams help Decimators?

Oh, you mean because they won't care about the lost green die! Ah yeah. That's cool, I like Decimators.

It's also that they simply have more hull. So, Tractor beam a Falcon and it's now on equal footing with a decimator while all of a decimator's defense is simply in its health.

Mind you, I don't think that the Falcon will mind it as much as people above think unless you can get it in a lot of arcs. However, that's always been the case. One die, even modified, isn't much better than zero unless you're only getting shot at a single time.

Turns out you can block or deny ace movements with just the obstacle templates you leave on the table (both overlapping or blocking possible boost/rolls)

Trying to compare an ace, who may be difficult to deny, to a PWT which is literally impossible to avoid if you want a shot, will get you nowhere

Turns out this is a double post

A fat PWT that gets stressed and\or blocked and put into situation when there's 3-4 range one focussed shots at it's fat arse

is a PWT in a really messy situation.

block-stressing works both ways.

only the poor jouster still didn't get a circle-breaking accessible tool

A pwt blocked with 3-4 range ones in its arse/side has the opportunity to kill one before it shoots thanks to PWT's 4 dice + stacking dice independent modifiers

You will NEVER deny it that opportunity, unless it's parked on a rock

Compare to, say, aggressor

Aggressor is a different beast alltogether.

it's a super-fat JOUSTER who woop-wooops around S-looping

poor poor jousters...

a PWT keeps getting damage. unless it ARCDODGES WITH BOOST (see the problem yet?)

ace gets no shots at all unless you precicely block his exact maneuver (with it's small base and multiple choices)

in both cases if you manage to precicely block the beast, and get lots of clean shots it gets it's arse penetrated to oblivion.

you're not one-shotting nothing with single 4 dice attack. the greatest damage dealing PWT is Predator-Chiraneau, but his ass is handed to him EXTREMELY FAST because it's a 0-evade brick.

tl;dr Jousters need some good toys to bring down arcdodgers. skill-independent like AT and EU

Blocking an ace is also far less punishing than blocking a PWT

A PWT can move wherever it feels like and still get shots off. Arcdodgers have to risk getting blocked or giving up shots, since they actually have an honest to god arc

Removing EU from pwts just makes then shorter dicefests; doesn't change the fact that they'll always get dice + the possibility To get ****** by dice

No matter what you do

No matter how well you play

Nope, a EU-less PWT is a dead PWT.

without EU PWT is jouster-food.

and now with AT in EVERYTHING where it's possible, EU-less PWT is food for everything.

PWT has 3 dice in most cases.

and it DOES lose to jousters in dicefests.

the best green dice are green dice you don't have to roll.

that's why EU is so important.

I'd be perfectly happy to see X-wing without boosting PWTs and arcdodgers in like every list that's not a TLT-fest

Brussels sprouts are the king of vegetables. Roasted or grilled, brushed with a little oil and seasoned with salt, and there is no greenery finer.

I'd be ok with a global PWT change. The game is more fun when the maneuvering (something you can control) matters more than the dice (something you have limited control over).

It's fun to have to guess and second guess your opponents moves, which doesn't really happen with 360 degree, range 1-3 weapons.

The question becomes how to model the Falcon's turrets in a different way. It could be thematic to make ships at closer range harder to hit (because they are streaking past too fast for the turret operator to stay on target). Or maybe the range bonus could be inverted for PWTs (range 1 = 1 more green for target, range 3 = 1 more red for PWT). Just an example, probably not a good solution, but I would welcome the right change to PWTs.

"Warpman vs. FGD: a battle for the ages! Get your tickets here folks! It's sure to be the talk of the forums!"

Talk about an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object...

I'd be ok with a global PWT change. The game is more fun when the maneuvering (something you can control) matters more than the dice (something you have limited control over).

It's fun to have to guess and second guess your opponents moves, which doesn't really happen with 360 degree, range 1-3 weapons.

The question becomes how to model the Falcon's turrets in a different way. It could be thematic to make ships at closer range harder to hit (because they are streaking past too fast for the turret operator to stay on target). Or maybe the range bonus could be inverted for PWTs (range 1 = 1 more green for target, range 3 = 1 more red for PWT). Just an example, probably not a good solution, but I would welcome the right change to PWTs.

you're not one-shotting nothing with single 4 dice attack.

I know several hundred dead TIE Fighter and Z-95 pilots who would disagree with you on that one.

you're not one-shotting nothing with single 4 dice attack.

I know several hundred dead TIE Fighter and Z-95 pilots who would disagree with you on that one.

Not to mention poor Scyk pilots.

Yeah my HLC defenders have popped plenty of headhunters in one shot before so four attack can hurt.

Which is why you don't joust it you're way better off going into the sides and facing whatever turrets equipped.

you're not one-shotting nothing with single 4 dice attack.

I know several hundred dead TIE Fighter and Z-95 pilots who would disagree with you on that one.

Not to mention poor Scyk pilots.

don't mention syck Scyks...

Hey guys lets all take 1sentence out of context and discuss it in detail !

Hey guys lets all take 1sentence out of context and discuss it in detail !

The situation with meta changes and card fixes is not that different to the power-creep in 40K. The designers introduce what they think is a cool new rule or mechanic that works nicely on 1 ship and fail to take into account the possibility of player spamming it to the nth degree. This problem always crops up when you have asymmetric forces being balanced by something subjective like points.

At least FFG acknowledge there is a problem and try to issue incremental patches in new waves. GW just denies there are any problems until they redo a codex or the core game at which point they introduce a whole new set of problems.

Am I the only one looking forward to the opportunity to run skinny Han?

Skinny Han = Han Solo + Adaptability + Chopper - 46 points.

A PS 10 turret with Han's ability and Chopper just in case seems like good mileage for the points. Heck you'd have enough left over to let him walk 2 advanced sensor dogs.

Am I the only one looking forward to the opportunity to run skinny Han?

Skinny Han = Han Solo + Adaptability + Chopper - 46 points.

A PS 10 turret with Han's ability and Chopper just in case seems like good mileage for the points. Heck you'd have enough left over to let him walk 2 advanced sensor dogs.

He would still want an engine upgrade really bad. What's that Ps10 good for if you cant dodge arcs...