I'm feeling like I will get flak for this but I feel I should come clean.

I decided to join in on the Vassal tourney fun and signed up for the TC Open. I played my first match tonight, against a Palp/Whisper/Soontir list, and I flew Han/Miranda. Without getting into too much detail, my opponent made it clear he wasn't 100% focused for the game. But we went ahead with the match.

For the first two instances, He revealed his shuttle dial before he decloaked his Phantom. I reminded him and allowed him to decloak since I had yet to reveal any maneuvers myself.

Towards the end of the match, it was Miranda at 2 hull behind the shuttle (mostly full health), and Soontir at 1 hull. I got an opportunity to shoot at a tokenless Soontir with 1 hull.

I rolled 3 hits with my TLT, and he rolled 2 blanks and an evade. At this point I literally shouted "YES!!" in the house thinking I had hit, and he pulled his ship off the board thinking he lost him as well. As there were no more shots, I set my dial for the next turn. It was then when an observer pointed out why he pulled the ship off with autothrusters and palp still available. I honestly had completely forgotten about it, and it was then when the observer said "its too late now".

Now I was put on the spot. I was in prime position to win the match, but the window had closed for him to take it back... if this was on an actual table, once the ship is pulled off the board he wouldn't have been able to put it back. I decided to stay silent, and waited for his response. He set his dial for next round and we continued.

I didn't rush him to forget to use his abilities, I gave him two other missed opportunities, and if he had said something, I probably would have let him take it back. Also, I still had another shot, unknown if it would hit or not.

So why do I still feel like crap about it?

You didn't do anything wrong IMO.

I think a similar situation is when an opponent flies a ship off the board.

On one hand, you wish for a more fair victory; but at the same time not making those mistakes is part of the game too.

What Zerotc said.

Recently I started using the card Predator, which I never used before. I've missed a lot of opportunities and re-rolls, even when I am focused on the game. I'm not used to any of my ships having that ability. Not a single person has said "Hey, you can Pred that roll." Usually, when that ship dies or at the end of the match, I groan and kick myself for having forgotten about it. That's my fault, not any of my opponents.

You did nothing wrong. Enjoy your win and don't worry about it.

You don't feel great because (I suspect) you feel like you won, but not in the way you wanted to. No one wants to beat someone through a rules violation, there are much better things in life.

You didn't do anything wrong IMO.

I think a similar situation is when an opponent flies a ship off the board.

On one hand, you wish for a more fair victory; but at the same time not making those mistakes is part of the game too.

yeah. dude wasn't paying attention and messed up... you want that to not be the way it is, but you cant control the weird illegal-on-most-continents "bothan spy interrogation" videos he has playing on the other monitor

When I am in a match, even a casual one, if I forget to use an ability or make a mistake, I will not ask my opponent to allow me to use it. It is my own fault that I made the mistake by not paying enough attention to my own ships and cards, so I don't ask them. I figure that the best way to remember to use something is to lose because you forgot to use all your abilities and upgrades. He should have been more focused on the game, so you have no reason to feel bad.

Empathy. Now get off the internet quick before it gets beaten out of you.

I lucked out and escorted both Horn and Poe off the board with a two hull Ion Canon B-wing to win a game and didn't feel like I won. Good dice helped me walk Horn off while Poe was finishing off my Tycho, then he got one pass on my B with Poe. I survived and did a little 2k turn and he just moved forward one and I proceeded to take a couple turns to walk him off too. I felt bad. He had beat me the rest of the game. I had tons of dumb maneuvers and he'd played a cool game up until my B latched onto Horn.

In the end, I didn't feel right because I felt I'd lucked out and taken advantage of his one or two mistakes where I'd just managed to survive my own. Just felt cheap i guess.

Sometimes the victory isn't so sweet when the opponent contributes to his own demise.

So why do I still feel like crap about it?

For me, this is why I tend to remind my opponent of missed opportunities regularly. I feel like crap if I don't. I can't explain it either, and I don't begrudge anyone for doing differently but that's exactly what I do. Even when I lose because of that I feel a lot better in some ways than when I win.

I'd just like to post this here:

With 3.8 million dollars on the line, he tells his opponent that the ref made a bad call, and that he can challenge it to score an extra point.

We should all strive to be like this guy, especially when there's nothing but bragging rights on the line.

You don't feel great because (I suspect) you feel like you won, but not in the way you wanted to. No one wants to beat someone through a rules violation, there are much better things in life.

I was so hoping for what was behind that link.

If a card says does not say " You May.... blah blah" then its the responsibility of both players to keep track of it. This is stupid in my opinion and leads to endless mistakes as most players in tournaments are very focused just in keeping track of their own lists.

But that is how the rules go.

Of cards say "You may.... blah blah" then tough cookie if my opponent skips or forgets that card. In tournament play at least. Casually I remind folks since casual play is practice for higher quality tournament play.

there's another way to think about this. You didnt rush him. He did admit he was a little out of sorts. He can take it as a learning experience. One game. no big deal.

It's like when the Steelers beat the Bengals in the Wild Card Weekend... Yeah, they advanced to the Divisional Round. But not because they won. Rather, their opponent lost.

I personally feel like that often when the dice have a major impact on the game. Sure, there are ways to list build and minimize their randomness, and there are ways to maneuver to reduce their impact, but would you feel any better if you got that shot on a double focus token Fel (but no evade for whatever reason), and he rolled 3 blanks? Sure, Palp and AT give him 2 evades. And c'mon... 3 blanks?

I know I would have felt like the dice decided the game, especially if he was in the better position moving forward. The same thing can happen the other way around. I've had a game where Fel flew over 2 cluster mines (and had 1 hull left). Of the 4 dice he rolled, it was a crit, hit and two blanks. He palp'd the hit to a blank and walked away damage free. C'mon man!

You win some, you lose some, and then some get stolen from you, and others are gifted. Oh well, if it truly bothers you, offer to play a rematch to truly test the skill.

Round 4 at Worlds. I was 3-0.

My 6 ship PS 4 list went up against a 5 ship PS 2. I built my list to take on PS 2 lists and my opponent realized that I had a list to beat his.

3 rounds of maneuvering him into the rocks and engage with 5 ships shooting at one of his. I do a total of 2 damage with 5 ships. I could not roll any hits or evades this game, even with modification. My opponent won but knew the Dice gods had called it. And so did I. I took my first loss and went on with the rest of the tournament.

Was an important lesson in that you can do everything right and still lose. You can also do nothing wrong and still win, but in most games everybody does something wrong and the ones who capitalize on it are the winners, even if it is a missed opportunity from your opponent.

These mistakes can be very good teaching moments in the game. Dial in a 4 red straight on a Y wing instead of the 4 K-turn and fly your ship off the board. Done that in a tournament. Haven't done it since. Because I remember doing it and now I avoid repeating that mistake.

Sergovan, on 22 Jan 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

Round 4 at Worlds. I was 3-0.

My 6 ship PS 4 list went up against a 5 ship PS 2. I built my list to take on PS 2 lists and my opponent realized that I had a list to beat his.

3 rounds of maneuvering him into the rocks and engage with 5 ships shooting at one of his. I do a total of 2 damage with 5 ships. I could not roll any hits or evades this game, even with modification. My opponent won but knew the Dice gods had called it. And so did I. I took my first loss and went on with the rest of the tournament.

Was an important lesson in that you can do everything right and still lose. You can also do nothing wrong and still win, but in most games everybody does something wrong and the ones who capitalize on it are the winners, even if it is a missed opportunity from your opponent.

These mistakes can be very good teaching moments in the game. Dial in a 4 red straight on a Y wing instead of the 4 K-turn and fly your ship off the board. Done that in a tournament. Haven't done it since. Because I remember doing it and now I avoid repeating that mistake.

You can still mitigate the "Luck" factor significantly with creating lists that have better math-wing to them or are more efficient at their overall dice results.

I get what your saying and often want to blame dice. But really its just me choosing to use a list that did not minimize the chances of total dice failure.

I don't think you did anything wrong after all he forgot about AT and Palpatine as well.

I think the part that bothers me more here is an observer making a tactical comment about something that happened while the game was still going on. Don't comment on a game in progress unless there's an obvious rules violation.

What Zerotc said.

Recently I started using the card Predator, which I never used before. I've missed a lot of opportunities and re-rolls, even when I am focused on the game. I'm not used to any of my ships having that ability. Not a single person has said "Hey, you can Pred that roll." Usually, when that ship dies or at the end of the match, I groan and kick myself for having forgotten about it. That's my fault, not any of my opponents.

You did nothing wrong. Enjoy your win and don't worry about it.

I do the samething with my Vader... that's why I just stopped using Predator and use VI instead now. Why pay 3 pts for a card I forget to use 90% of time?

Don't comment on a game in progress unless there's an obvious rules violation.

Even then, you should go tell a TO/Judge if there's one around. But yeah people should never comment about tactical mistakes or options for someone else's game.

Myself I'd be pretty firm on the idea that if you take a ship off the table it doesn't get to come back unless it was taken off by mistake. Say you thought it took 2 damage but it only took 1. This was not a case of a mistake, it was that someone didn't use some options they had available.

I can understand someone not wanting to win because someone else had a boneheaded moment. But most games are in fact won because of mistakes made by the other player. Normally they're small mistakes that give you a slight advantage, or they're mistakes you can take advantage of. But when it comes down to it, most games are won because the other guy screwed up more than you did.

But when it comes down to it, most games are won because the other guy screwed up more than you did.

So much this. It's interesting the weight we put on certain mistakes. Different people draw the line at different places depending upon their level of competitiveness. I applaud good sportsmanship, but I'm not going to chastise someone for following the rules. As long as they're not being a jerk about it.

It's interesting the weight we put on certain mistakes.

Good point. I think we do put more weight on some mistakes than others or at least have a different perspective of them.

I know some people would if someone took a left turn, and flew a ship off the table, be willing to let them them 'fix the mistake' and take what clearly intended to be right turn.

But let's say someone takes a left bank which puts them at range 1 in front of of Corran (who can double tap this round) but a right bank would of put them behind a different ship of mine and neither ship could shoot back.

In the first case people seem to think 'well it was a clear mistake and he shouldn't lose a ship because of that' But in the later case how many people would say 'nah it's cool you clearly meant to do a right bank so you can change your dial'? Both were really the same mistake.

In the first case they simply lose the ship, nothing they can do about it. In the second case we destroy the ship, and in theory they can do something about it... But really they can't.

But when it comes down to it, most games are won because the other guy screwed up more than you did.

Forgetting an action, selecting a left turn instead of a right, and forgetting that your ship has a stress token are screwimg up. They happen relatively rarely in my games and they have an actual impact even less often. What I see usually deciding games between equally skilled players are judgments, not mistakes. Chasing Soontir to shoot him down early only to have your opponent pull an unlikely move and leave you with no targets and in a bad position isn't necessarily a mistake. If Fel had pulled a different maneuver, he may have been staring down the barrels of a full squad of enemy fighters.

It's interesting the weight we put on certain mistakes.

Good point. I think we do put more weight on some mistakes than others or at least have a different perspective of them.I know some people would if someone took a left turn, and flew a ship off the table, be willing to let them them 'fix the mistake' and take what clearly intended to be right turn.But let's say someone takes a left bank which puts them at range 1 in front of of Corran (who can double tap this round) but a right bank would of put them behind a different ship of mine and neither ship could shoot back.In the first case people seem to think 'well it was a clear mistake and he shouldn't lose a ship because of that' But in the later case how many people would say 'nah it's cool you clearly meant to do a right bank so you can change your dial'? Both were really the same mistake.In the first case they simply lose the ship, nothing they can do about it. In the second case we destroy the ship, and in theory they can do something about it... But really they can't.

Exactly my point.(VanorDM)

Hell I just had a game the other day where I set up my swarm for a game had a ship pointing backwards right off the board. I noticed before we got started and just flipped him around. My opponent said he would have seriously considered forcing me to fly him off. I think it was in jest though because he ended his statement with "I think that's the only way I would be able to beat you." While completely within the rules, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would force you to fly off round 1. They prolly exist, I'm sure. I bet that person also plays 40k