I'm in the process of preparing for an upcoming store championship, and obviously the first step is to choose a list. I figured I would start by looking through list juggler and see what people have been flying, and what's been working.

What struck me the most was the complete lack of YT-1300's and YT-2400's. Of the 6 store championships I looked at, which included 210 total players, only 12 of them brought Han Solo, Chewy, Dash, or Leebo. Of those 12 players, none of them made the cut in their respective tournaments.

Do you guys think that the meta shifted so hard that these ships aren't competitive anymore? Or is it just the fact that less people are flying them because they're preoccupied with shiny new toys?

Shiny new toys I would say. Those ships are still competitive.

A bit of both. The MoV change makes the pancakes a lot less attractive. You can't save all 50-60 points worth of ships behind 1 hull any longer.

Plus TLT are very good at taking down large low agility targets. So is Vader or any other Tie Advanced with a x1 and Adv Targeting Computer.

A Dash made the Top 8 in Atlanta in a 43 person tournament, but was eliminated. It's available on ListJuggler on January 9th.

A bit of both. The MoV change makes the pancakes a lot less attractive. You can't save all 50-60 points worth of ships behind 1 hull any longer.

Plus TLT are very good at taking down large low agility targets. So is Vader or any other Tie Advanced with a x1 and Adv Targeting Computer.

The MoV changes make a lot of sense to me. I know personally I've shyed away from bringing those ships for that reason alone.

As for the TLT thing, I was under the impression that the exact opposit were true. It seems to me that a good counter to TLT is a ship with a lot of hull, which both of these are. Since they can't do lots of burst damage, it would take a while to tick them down. Maybe I'm wrong there though.

As for Vader, I would imagine that Chewbacca would be a decent counter, since he ignores those crits anyway.

Then again maybe I'm just in love with the Falcon model and I'm looking for an excuse to fly it

Dash Rendar is still as potent as ever. Flew him last night to blow the dust off my YT-2400 against a rebel ace list and a 5 Khiraxz list. The boost + barrel roll with classic PTL Dash is still really really good. Second game I tried out Lone Wolf + R2-D2 crew and the regen was pretty great too. Flew with with 2 naked B's and Dash just floated along the edge of the fray throwing 4 dice at everything.

I'm in the process of preparing for an upcoming store championship, and obviously the first step is to choose a list. I figured I would start by looking through list juggler and see what people have been flying, and what's been working.

What struck me the most was the complete lack of YT-1300's and YT-2400's. Of the 6 store championships I looked at, which included 210 total players, only 12 of them brought Han Solo, Chewy, Dash, or Leebo. Of those 12 players, none of them made the cut in their respective tournaments.

Do you guys think that the meta shifted so hard that these ships aren't competitive anymore? Or is it just the fact that less people are flying them because they're preoccupied with shiny new toys?

1. people are just syck of PWT-boosting around.

2. new toys stomped the old ways. Who cares about your 2 auto-damage-reductions per turn when TLT has no worries about it, and doesn't care about your boost

3. wait for Kanan. he'll breathe some weird unholy power into PTL-Dash

I think people got overly spooked out of the pancakes with TLTs and the MoV thing, but i've had good success with a Falcon regardless. You just need to bring your boosting and out-fly the TLTs and you'll be okay.

As for the TLT thing, I was under the impression that the exact opposit were true.

Depends. YT vs a single TLT is fine. But 2-3 TLT's are going to do 3-6 damage a turn vs the YT doing 1-2 damage per turn.

As for Vader, I would imagine that Chewbacca would be a decent counter

The power of Vader isn't just the crit effect but the quarantined extra damage you get.

As for the TLT thing, I was under the impression that the exact opposit were true.

Depends. YT vs a single TLT is fine. But 2-3 TLT's are going to do 3-6 damage a turn vs the YT doing 1-2 damage per turn.

As for Vader, I would imagine that Chewbacca would be a decent counter

The power of Vader isn't just the crit effect but the quarantined extra damage you get.

When you're playing against TLTs you need to use your fatness to your advantage. You can get in a lot of donut holes this way if they're close enough together. If not, they're spread out and you can get away from some of them.

It's still not a good matchup, but i've found it winnable.

the pancakes have lost a lot of appeal, dont kid yourself.

- MOV advantage gone. They now basically behave like 2 ships and an endgame of small ace vs hurt big ship is now more likely to end in a modified win for the small ace due to MOV.

-Multiple TLT are now more damage efficient than big turret ships at Ranges 2-3. Meaning the pancakes can not hang out at r3 and trade shots (this hurts Dash the most).

-Once per round defensive upgrades (c3p0, falcon title, Dash extra focus token from Kyle) are now weaker, meaning these ships go down faster

-Guaranteed ATC crits are shredding low agility/high hull ships, which they are. (semi-true for Dash).

-Stressbot kills their mobility if he ever gets them in arc (let's face it, it happens sometimes). And pancakes always went down quick if they cant avoid focus fire.

-Poe is especially good against pancakes. Everybody and their moms is flying Poe.

All of this and also people eventually do like to play new things, too.

I'm not saying pancakes are done, but they're currently not Tier1 in my humble opinion. And thats fine, they had their time. Game development moves in cycles.

but they're currently not Tier1 in my humble opinion.

I don't think I'd go that far, they're still good ships, but do require more thought than they did before. You can't load as many points as possible on them and then save those points behind a single hull. The other knock against fat PWT's is the Phantom isn't as big of a thing so you don't them them as the easy hard counter.

I expect the Han will go on a diet and the Han Shot First type lists will be seen again.

but they're currently not Tier1 in my humble opinion.

I don't think I'd go that far, they're still good ships, but do require more thought than they did before. You can't load as many points as possible on them and then save those points behind a single hull. The other knock against fat PWT's is the Phantom isn't as big of a thing so you don't them them as the easy hard counter.I expect the Han will go on a diet and the Han Shot First type lists will be seen again.

Call them tier 1.5 if you will but they certainly aren't winning or placing High in a lot of tournaments right now.

I've been looking into some slim Han builds but the difference between mid 50s and 61/62/64 Han is still super drastic. For 50ish cost I'd rather have Dash still, I think.

But I think the rebels don't need to run either of them to be competitive anymore.

Really, because I saw 2 Dashes in the top 16 at Worlds. And the meta hasn't shifted that much with the TFA stuff.

Really, because I saw 2 Dashes in the top 16 at Worlds. And the meta hasn't shifted that much with the TFA stuff.

What part of my post wasn't clear? I didn't claim they can't win or place high, I said there's not a lot of them winning or placing high right now. Which is exactly what we are seeing and I've offered some reasons in the posts above.

Biggest predator to dash imo is palp aces. That's an awful matchup for dash since either of them can just ride the donut and kill him, at least currently.

For yt1300 tlt and mov hurt a lot but it's still a powerful ship.

TLT spam, new large ship MoV rules, and autothrusters on most aces nowadays (i.e. Poe, Jake, Soontir) have all contributed to their decline.

Still good ships, yes. But no longer the flavour of the wave.

I took 7th in my store championship with a standard 58 point Super dash + Corran list. Picked up 2 solid wins 1 mod win and 1 loss. So I did okay.

Ill tell you right now im not flying it in the next one because I feel the half points thing is its biggest weakness and the reason that loss wasnt a mod win and the reason my mod win wasnt a solid victory.

Not complaining about the rule, its fair but it is a glaring weakness causing me to reconsider flying it more than the once.

They were never really in style outside of phantom hard counters and abusing the previous, incredibly flawed mov + matching system in competitive events

Dash is very difficult and stressful to play successfully for many games on end, especially against all that high PS + stress Y. He's awesome fun but nowhere near easy mode and has therefore lost a lot of appeal

Vt shows up sometimes carrying palpie with whisper

The falcon seems, thankfully, dead. It was a boring piece of **** to fly with or against and now there's so much tech that can get through its brainless, action independent bulk. Juke, crackshot and TLTs go right through it

the yts still have very much going for them - on a strictly competative level;

however (and with a heavy dose of IMO, YMMV!), they are quite boring to fly. have ever been, will ever be. I have flown my two yt1300 perhaps 3times and am not eager for a fourth. the 2400 are a bit more interesting to fly - APART from dash, who is ignoring all the fun parts of obstacles.

other things are just way more fun (to me), and maybe (not saying that it is so) other people feel similar. there's just something so much more satisfying with flying a standard-arc-ship..

Yea, personally I'm fine if FFG decides to bury turrets.

I'm glad they're in the game and understand the need for them, but watching 2 YTs vs 2 YTs fly around is probably not what FFG had in mind when they designed X-wing.

What attracted me to X-wing was the sense of dogfighting which is absent in those cases.

They're still great and Super Dash will still autowin you games against normal lists.

People think they're bad now even though a 65 point Deci can just delete half of these Acewing lists.

They're still great and Super Dash will still autowin you games against normal lists.

And once more here comes the nonsense.

The only way a super Dash is a autowin, is against a newbie or someone not trying. I've beat plenty of Super Dashes with normal lists.

They're still great and Super Dash will still autowin you games against normal lists.

People think they're bad now even though a 65 point Deci can just delete half of these Acewing lists.

Why do you have to insist this every time you post? Should I start saying "Super Dash isn't autowin" at every opportunity?

I just beat Super Dash with Bossk and 4 Pirates on Tuesday (100-12 MoV). Is that a "normal" enough list?

Haven't seen a YT-2400 or a YT-1300 in a long time around here. With tractor beam YT-1300 with C-3PO is done for sure. Could still run a more aggressive Han shoots you in the face first list though.

YT-1300 in casual play they are still just as fun, but not sure they are worth much in tournament play atm.

YT-2400 is still viable just not seeing it much.

Of course TLT is pure win atm.