Atheosis said:

Indeed. Same here.

[shrug]

I just think Inquisitorial Storm Troopers should be amongst the best humanity has to offer in terms of mental resistence rather than merely competant veterans. Agree to disagree I guess.

Visitor Q said:

in "Scourge the Heretic", the process to become an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper basically consists of being a Guardsman and being able to survive a psychic or daemonic holocaust of some kind (like some of the guardsmen do in the beginning of the novel, but im not gonna spoil it too much).

Not too much in the form of specific training or conditioning mentioned, just be with the guard and fight through an incredibly lethal and mind shredding situation involving some sort of warp taint and you're a viable candidate to become an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper.

The best humanity has to offer is a more appropriate term for Space Marines, not normal humans. That being said, storm troopers tend to be the best that the Imperial Guard has to offer.

Visitor Q said:

Surely you'd save the "best humanity has to offer in terms of mental resistance" for a more important job than guarding Inquisitorial fortresses and serving as the Holy Ordos basic footsoldiers (if an Inquisitor needs a specialist, he calls on the appropriate Order Militant... that is, afterall, what the Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Sisters Militant do best).

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are, in 40k terms, identical to Imperial Guard Stormtroopers except in matters of special ops training and equipment (IG Stormtroopers get a few different deployment options, and shorter-ranged, better-AP guns than Inquisitorial Stormtroopers). The Ld8 they get there is a considerable distance from the finest examples of human mental fortitude (it's above average, that's about it).

Agamorr is, at the very least, a Veteran Sergeant-equivalent Space Marine, so Ld9 and the standard Astartes special morale rules would be how he'd appear in 40k. By that rough benchmark, he's a step or two ahead of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

in "Scourge the Heretic", the process to become an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper basically consists of being a Guardsman and being able to survive a psychic or daemonic holocaust of some kind (like some of the guardsmen do in the beginning of the novel, but im not gonna spoil it too much).

Not too much in the form of specific training or conditioning mentioned, just be with the guard and fight through an incredibly lethal and mind shredding situation involving some sort of warp taint and you're a viable candidate to become an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper.

Candidate , that is. The Training From Hell comes afterwards - you may remember the friendly words of the sergeant concerning the fate of those who couldn't keep up with the running troopers.

Then there's also the best 5% of a schola's storm trooper cadets who get inducted into the inquisition right away (cf.Caves of Ice).

At least at my interpretation, not all storm troopers are same. There is difference between the psy-warded guards of Black Ships, elite special forces of Imperial Guard, purge kill-squads of Ordo Hereticus, mind-scourged drones of Ordo Malleus, die-hard Krieg Granadiers, Inquisition footsloggers (by the way I´m looking forward Radical Handbook and Ascesion, if there´ll be more info of Black Regiment mentioned by Inquisitor Gelt), Naval hit-and run forces deployed by Shark Assault Boats and at least in my oponion kickassiest of them all, cadian Kasrkin (kasrkin/bayonet/daemonhost and newer kasrkin/broken powersword/Death Guard Dreadnought.... ´nuff said).

WP (witchunting Hereticus guys would have it slightly higher than IG ones, for example 45 and 40), equipment (BS guards would have plently of psy-defence and antipsyker weaponary) and wp/fear talents (krieg granadiers would have pretty much everything as Resistance (Fear), Unshakable Faith, Insanly Faithful, while Malleus Drones would be utterly mind-scrubed and so fearless)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well an interesting point though given what is sometimes kept inside Inquisitorial Fortresses I am not sure that guarding them is that unimportant .

I think it basically comes down to this.

Storm troopers in the fluff undergo specialist training to resist mental attacks and corruption.

This training appears to be above what an ordinary Guard veteran would recieve.

A Storm Trooper character can be created with a WP of 50+ using ordinary game mechanics.

WP of 40-45 is good but not exceptional for a human.

The question to me then is simply are Storm Troopers exceptional to most forces humanity has to offer. In terms of their mental fortitude I would say yes. Obviously you guys don't agree. Fair enough. Obviously different readings of the fluff will get different interpretations.

[Note: Comparing WH40K stats with Dark Heresy is always a rough science because Ld has to take into account WP Command skills, Int and Fel.

Just as its worth noting that a Veteran Sergeants Ld is 9 so it is also worth noting that a normal Guard Storm Troopers Ld is only 7. Hence by the same logic a normal Guard Storm Trooper WP should be in the 35-40 range, which is fairly low. Not that this is necessarily wrong but that would be the consistent position].

35 isnt truly low, according to table 1-2 (page 23 Dark Heresy) 35 is the top of the average range. A Stormtrooper would be in the 40 range, IMHO, which is considered Superior by said table.

Now add in a Sergeant leading the squad with decent fellowship and willpower (40-45), the proper skills and a squad of carapace clad, hellgun toting veteran troopers with Resistance (fear, psychic powers, et al) anda few talents and you have a brave force to be reckoned with.

Or they all have 20+ isanity points and thus are immune to Fear 1.

Visitor Q said:

Err...Storm Troopers all have Ld 8...

Latest Imperial Guard Codex; Pg 46 Storm Trooper Ld= 7

Visitor Q said:

Yeah, but that entire codex sucks.

Probably true but then I am wary about using the rules set in WH40K as a direct comparison with Dark Heresy anyway, because the rules in WH40K don't really represent the fluff so well.

Atheosis said:

Which is what I thought I had typed, to be fair... must've not noticed hitting the 7 instead of the 8...

Visitor Q said:

Don't play TT anymore. Why on Earth would they drop Storm Trooper Leadership? They never were that good to begin with. Are they at least cheaper now?

Atheosis said:

Hellguns are now AP 3, I believe. That makes up for a lot.

Wow from AP 5 to AP3...

I swear GW game balances by throwing darts at a board.

I was a dediated IG player for years. Have hundreds of troops and nearly a dozen tanks. Kit bashed ogryn, ratlings, the whole shebang. When the new Codex came out I quit the game.

The new IG Codex is a joke. If you want to create stats for DH or RT from a IG codex, use the previous one.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Yeah, the stats for some of the units and weapons in the new IG codex is pretty far out. Still I liked the orders system that they implemented, it seems pretty fun and it is giving the IG infantry some of that extra oomph that they needed.

Also, I really disliked the fact that WH40K had a tendency to suffer from the same "Hero Hammer" affliction that Warhammer Fantasy suffer from. (It's just so ridiculous that individual squad leaders are almost a unit in their own right, able to smash through opponents with ease despite being heavily outnumbered just because the enemy troops are standard infantry).

And I've always said that I'd like WH40K's use of leaders and characters to change towards making them important for their ability to make the grunts do extraordinary stuff (i.e something more than just giving the troops better Ld), rather than the characters being an army in their own right. And it seemed like the new IG codex was trying to go for that with the orders system.

But because they had to play around too much with the stats of individual units and their weapons, the overall codex has become pretty wierd and unbalanced.

But im not surprised. Ever since 5th ed came out they have beeen ruining codex after codex in some way. The new Chaos Spacemarines codex is just a sick but boring joke, the new Orks codex is too linear and streamlined (and boring because of that), the "Daemons codex" shouldn't even exist etc. etc.