Right. So the old T-65 X-wing needs a fix. It's worse at jousting than a Tie Fighter, and yet has a worse dial and no barrel roll. Meaning to beat Tie Swarm with 4X, you'd actually have to outfly the more maneuverable ship to make up for your relatively crummy jousting profile.

Integrated Astromech has helped this a bit (and it's awesome from a thematic point of view, encouraging Astromech use), but it's still worse at jousting than a B-Wing, and the B-Wing is less reliant on Green Dice to survive, has a better dial for knife fighting, and can take FCS for a large boost in Jousting efficiency.

All this means most people can agree that something else needs to be done, but nobody can agree what. Some people want to give it Boost/Barrel Roll (which I disagree with for a number of reasons, but now is not the time for that), but with the new 'Dual Cards' being spoiled, some people want the fix to be a two-sided 'S-Foils' card, where players can open and close those S-Foils at will.

I hate this.

Here are some things I've seen, and why I don't like them:

1) Closed S-Foils don't make you go faster/evade better/whatever.

I'm not certain, but I think this idea comes from the Rogue Squadron computer games.

Because if we look at the films, or any piece of Star Wars media that isn't those games, those S-Foils stay open unless the craft is landing.

If only there was a time where straight line speed was of the utmost importance, where the pilot doesn't need to shoot their weapons, just fly really fast in a straight line.

Those S-Foils look open to me. Surely if closing them made you go faster or evade better, all the pilots would've closed them?

2) The X-Wing isn't the only ship with S-Foils

Here are all the ships we have currently in game with S-Foils:

• T-65 X-wing

• B-wing

• T-70 X-wing

• Tie Advanced Prototype

• Lambda

• Starviper

So... are we gonna give them all 'S-Foils' cards? Or are we gonna think up some reason why some of the ships with S-Foils have S-Foils, but other ships with S-Foils don't have S-Foils? Because that don't make a lick of sense.

3) Cmon, it just looks stupid

Yes, I know this is subjective, but does anyone actually like the look of the X-Wing opening and closing it's wings like a big metal bird? Because if we get an 'S-Foils' card in X-Wing, that mental image is going to be burned into my brain whenever I look at my X-Wings.

4) A Rogue Squadron title would be much better

I think, at least for the X-wing, the focus should be on the pilots, not the ships. From a thematic point of view, the Rebels are basically the RAF from The Battle of Britain/633 Squadron/Dambusters. They don't win because they have more manpower, or vastly superior ships, or ships that can flap their wings to confuse enemy pilots. They won because they flew better, and I think the X-Wing should reflect this.

At this point, there are ships like the T-70 and Defender that are 20-30 years more advanced than the X-Wing. The T-65 shouldn't be the pinnacle of technology, but why not make it the pinnacle of the design thesis of the Rebels: Synergy, Working Together, and a whole that is more than the sum of it's parts. To me, that's more interesting and thematic than flapping your wings to go faster.

Couldn't this have just gone in the same thread about the making of the card ?

Couldn't this have just gone in the same thread about the making of the card ?

Which one? There are like 50 different ones at this point

Have you flown an x-wing lately? They sort of rule

For the who gets s foils question: game play > game fluff

I too like the title. I think giving x-wings a ability share like ig would be thematic and fun.

Something like:

Rogue leader:

Ships with the rogue squadron title may use your ability. To equip his card your printed ps must be 6 or better. (Biggs and tarn proof)

Rogue squadron:

You may use rouge leaders ability. You must be a generic to equip this card.

Have you flown an x-wing lately? They sort of rule

I exclusively fly T-65s

Couldn't this have just gone in the same thread about the making of the card ?

Which one? There are like 50 different ones at this point

There is one. Not 50.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/199685-designing-a-fan-card-s-foils/

You realize that is one of many threads, dating back to 2012, all saying the same thing? My point is not about a specific design of an 'S-Foils' card, but more to do with the very concept of an open/close S-foils mechanic.

Okay, fair enough, but there is a thing that closing your S-Foils does: It makes your profile smaller, making it easier to avoid obstacles. Had a pretty prominent scene in the new movie and I think something interesting lies in there gameplaywise. Maybe one shouldn't go the full on Dash route and make a new way to interact with obstacles in a positive way.

next rebel aces pack should include ALL of rogue squadron that we dont currently have! with updated paint schemes as well!! now that would be cool!

so it should be Rebel Rogue Sqn, be 2 T-65 X-Wings in Green paint with about 30 cards?????

In the movies we have X-wings and other ships locking S foils into 'attack position' in ANH, ROTJ and RotS, where for some reason the ships are flying with them closed all they way until they entire the combat zone. (Minor spoiler?) TFA has one instance of explicit S foil action and that's to close and then open them to better fit through a gap.

Anyway, what is going on with Ani and Obi flying around so long without their S foils? Why were the B-wings flying with them closed so much, it looks wierd! I dunno. Canonically there's hardly anything said about s foils. Obviously they close for landing. They open for pew pew, even when they don't have weapons on them. To base any mechanic or upgrade on them seems...inappropriate.

That was a good write. I enjoyed that. Especially the bit about the X-Wings flapping their strike foils! Haha.

This makes sense though, I was always under the impression that S-foils were for combat and you locked them in attack position for fighting. So when they're closed that's... um.. transit position? Not-attack position?

It's a cool idea and I love Walter Vail's stuff where he... does whatever the hell it is he does to make that magic happen, but I don't think we need S-foils as an upgrade.

1) Closed S-Foils don't make you go faster/evade better/whatever.

I'm not certain, but I think this idea comes from the Rogue Squadron computer games.

Because if we look at the films, or any piece of Star Wars media that isn't those games, those S-Foils stay open unless the craft is landing.

I think you have some pretty valid points... But this is just wrong.

The X-Wings in ESB pretty much keep their S-foils closed throughout, whether they're flying to Dagobah and Bespin or just on patrol with the fleet at Sullust. And then in RotJ, the X-Wings and B-Wings are only seen in 'cruising mode' (S-foils closed) with the Rebel fleet at Sullust. When those same starfighters approach the second Death Star? Yeah, the S-foils get locked into attack position.

So clearly the S-foils are not always kept open - as you assert - unless the ships are landing; the ships seemingly always keep the S-foils closed unless they're in combat. Hence, 'cruising mode.'

Now, does that 'cruising mode' provide any benefits to the fighter? Who knows? As someone who's watched the films a zillion times, I can't tell. And as someone who's played a veritable ton of X-Wing/TIE Fighter/X-Wing Alliance, I can't tell. I guess I've always assumed it probably helps with speed and energy conservation...

Honestly, though, it just looks cool to have some of the fighters maneuver their wings into a more threatening attack position. Ha. (However, I still don't really get the purpose of the ARC-170's S-foils. Do they open to grant more energy to the weapons? I have no idea...)

But, hey, you're right about the S-foils opening and closing a lot in the Rogue Squadron games... It does get a bit annoying.

ESB showed the rebel fleet at the Rendezous Point. They were near Sullust in ROTJ.

It has been postulated that ARC-170s and Eta-2s open S foils for better heat loss during combat, with the greater demand on the reactor needing more efficient heat sinks. I suppose just flying around takes up less energy, but why not always fly with them open?

Vader's Lambda (ST-321) opens its wings/s foils for like a few seconds to fly in space only to close them almost immediately for landing/docking. Just to look cool.

So, s foils are literally for making things cooler.

I think this is what made me love B-Wings as a kid though.

When they're all like "locky de S-foils" and the B-Wing is like "fwip", and I was all like "wwwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaathaaasssssocooool!" and then they were all like "vrow!" and "voosh!" and then "pew pew, a pew pew!" and then the B-Wing was like all oscillatin' and then it went "beeeaaow ka-toosh!" and fired the thingies, and I was still just like "whoooaaathassocool!" and then Palpatine was like "Dude, shields" and Lando was like "Holy crap! Yo Ackbar!" and then you see the B-Wing again and you're like "Oh hell yeah mofos that B-Wing is gonna kick some serious bootay!" and then it does and it's awesome.

Ahem. Err, uh. I mean...

Give the T-65 boost!

S-Foils definitely do allow the ship to go faster in lore but basically in a straight line. They open for better firepower and maneuverability to dissipate stress on the hull and heat better. In the x-wing they specifically also provide better weapon spread.

The Lambda does not have s-foils though, they are just wings.

ESB showed the rebel fleet at the Rendezous Point. That were near Sullust in ROTJ.

Wow, maybe I have things wrong... I've always assumed the "rendezvous point" mentioned on Hoth was indeed the massing at Sullust.

Is it not?

ESB showed the rebel fleet at the Rendezous Point. That were near Sullust in ROTJ.

Wow, maybe I have things wrong... I've always assumed the "rendezvous point" mentioned on Hoth was indeed the massing at Sullust.

Is it not?

I think he's saying it was. But there was a good amount of time passing between the end of ESB and the crew joining up with the fleet in ROTJ. Guess the fleet takes a long time to amass somewhere.

I think this is what made me love B-Wings as a kid though.

When they're all like "locky de S-foils" and the B-Wing is like "fwip", and I was all like "wwwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaathaaasssssocooool!" and then they were all like "vrow!" and "voosh!" and then "pew pew, a pew pew!" and then the B-Wing was like all oscillatin' and then it went "beeeaaow ka-toosh!" and fired the thingies, and I was still just like "whoooaaathassocool!" and then Palpatine was like "Dude, shields" and Lando was like "Holy crap! Yo Ackbar!" and then you see the B-Wing again and you're like "Oh hell yeah mofos that B-Wing is gonna kick some serious bootay!" and then it does and it's awesome.

Believe me, I'm not a humorless mope... Ha.

But once we see the B-Wings open their S-foils as they approach the second Death Star? We literally never see them again.

...until the Droids cartoon, which portrayed every smuggler, pirate, and criminal syndicate in possession of B-Wings, A-Wings, and TIE Fighters.

However, I still don't really get the purpose of the ARC-170's S-foils. Do they open to grant more energy to the weapons? I have no idea

Supposedly radiator cooling fins. But don't poke the plot-holes.

I'd personally agree; I'd love to see a Rogue Squadron/Rogue Leader title set - and to provide benefits to X-wing pilots without resorting to Boost or Barrel Roll - that is, to be clear, to good players using X-wings. How to do this exactly, I'm less sure.

I think S-foils could be a cool boost to a multitude of ships that don't see the best action (T-65, Bwings, Starvipers) if done correctly. The T-70 doesn't need help, but once again if done correctly it could work so it helps the older ships and not the newer. I trust our overlords at FFG to come up with a cool mechanic regardless, and I expect S-foils might show up in a card or action sometime.

So far everything FFG has added to the game for fixes has also been fun. I'm confident that in the unlikely event that we get an s-foil mechanic they will do a good job.

Regarding your first point:

At the trench run, one could argue that they needed their weapons armed because hey look, there's TIEs shooting at us. You're in extremely hostile territory; it makes perfect sense to keep your weapons ready. I'd rather get there alive than get there fast.

The rest of the points are good though. Personally, I'm okay with the "closed S-foils = go faster" line of thought because I grew up playing the X-wing/Rogue Squadron games. I like to think the lasers need to be farther apart to fire for fear of overheating, which would cause them to explode. Then when they close them, they cannot shoot and the power from the lasers goes to the engines. But that's just me.

I'm confident that in the unlikely event that we get an s-foil mechanic they will do a good job.

I'm also willing to bet that everyone who tried to make their own will facepalm and go "of course!".