I want my players to be able to play Jedi characters but I don't want to go full on F&D as I don't need 18 different kinds of Jedi. So I was wondering if anyone had already made a simplified (or condensed might be a better term) Jedi specialization that can be added on top of the Force Emergent one which includes all the usual talents like Parry and Reflect. I don't need all the fluff talents that the F&D specs have as the characters will already have at least two other specs for that sort of thing.

I want my players to be able to play Jedi characters but I don't want to go full on F&D as I don't need 18 different kinds of Jedi. So I was wondering if anyone had already made a simplified (or condensed might be a better term) Jedi specialization that can be added on top of the Force Emergent one which includes all the usual talents like Parry and Reflect. I don't need all the fluff talents that the F&D specs have as the characters will already have at least two other specs for that sort of thing.

Check out Niman Disciple. It's got parry, reflect, Force Rating, Dedication, the ability to throw people around and integrate Move into your fighting. You can even disarm people. The only thing it's really lacking is Improved Parry or Improved reflect, but that would make the spec a "must have" for any aspiring saber user.

Best of all, it's already been heavily playtested, so it's likely to be more balanced than any homebrewed spec.

I want my players to be able to play Jedi characters but I don't want to go full on F&D as I don't need 18 different kinds of Jedi. So I was wondering if anyone had already made a simplified (or condensed might be a better term) Jedi specialization that can be added on top of the Force Emergent one which includes all the usual talents like Parry and Reflect. I don't need all the fluff talents that the F&D specs have as the characters will already have at least two other specs for that sort of thing.

Check out Niman Disciple. It's got parry, reflect, Force Rating, Dedication, the ability to throw people around and integrate Move into your fighting. You can even disarm people. The only thing it's really lacking is Improved Parry or Improved reflect, but that would make the spec a "must have" for any aspiring saber user.

Best of all, it's already been heavily playtested, so it's likely to be more balanced than any homebrewed spec.

I was tempted to point you at the three Spec Trees I made and posted to my blog a couple years back while waiting for F&D, but I gotta go with Kaosoe's suggestion; Niman Disciple is pretty much a solid spec for making "Joe Average Jedi Wannabe".

I think Niman Disciple is ideal, as well. If you let them take the emergent tree as well, they can still reach a Force Rating of 4. The one thing you might want to do, however, is consider allowing the improved parry and reflect results for three advantages or a triumph (or three threats or a despair on the opponents roll). Those are the only significant things missing from the tree. Niman and Emergent combined will get them to FR-3, which is where I would put Luke in RotJ. Will you allow them to use the force powers from F&D?

Concur: Favorite Saber Tree + Emergent and/or Exile +Force powers to taste = boring generic Jedi... Best of all, no wheel reinvention, no concern that some house-tree got fanboyed out and will make any non-forcees feel like sidekicks.

Concur: Favorite Saber Tree + Emergent and/or Exile +Force powers to taste = boring generic Jedi... Best of all, no wheel reinvention, no concern that some house-tree got fanboyed out and will make any non-forcees feel like sidekicks.

While I agree that homebrew trees need play-testing and that some fan-boys might try to create an unbalanced tree, I also think there is a knee-jerk tendency to assume the worst. I have no prima facie issues with home-brew trees. They simply require good judgement exercised in good faith. I prefer to play with mature and responsible people I can trust to work towards a positive play experience for everyone at the table - and who understand that communication is key, and that play-testing may require some tweaks. I simply recommended Niman because its a solid tree that does provide most of what you need for Jedi-vibes and saves the time and work and confidence required to make your own tree.

Another option is two pick a solid non-saber tree to pair with Niman as the "jedi tree" and just brand the pair "Jedi Knight." I'm partial to Seer, but I also like Peacekeeper.

Concur: Favorite Saber Tree + Emergent and/or Exile +Force powers to taste = boring generic Jedi... Best of all, no wheel reinvention, no concern that some house-tree got fanboyed out and will make any non-forcees feel like sidekicks.

While I agree that homebrew trees need play-testing and that some fan-boys might try to create an unbalanced tree, I also think there is a knee-jerk tendency to assume the worst. I have no prima facie issues with home-brew trees. They simply require good judgement exercised in good faith. I prefer to play with mature and responsible people I can trust to work towards a positive play experience for everyone at the table - and who understand that communication is key, and that play-testing may require some tweaks. I simply recommended Niman because its a solid tree that does provide most of what you need for Jedi-vibes and saves the time and work and confidence required to make your own tree.

Another option is two pick a solid non-saber tree to pair with Niman as the "jedi tree" and just brand the pair "Jedi Knight." I'm partial to Seer, but I also like Peacekeeper.

And I agree all all counts.

If you want to go Niman+emergent it's a pretty solid path that covers a lot of bases. If we're talking something homebrew from the likes of someone like Dono or Phil (DarthGM) you're probably in good shape.

If you want to go with something else... it might be great.... it might not.... and it might depend heavily on what Specs the rest of the party is taking... I've seen a lot of good homebrew... and a lot of bad... heck I've MADE a lot of bad...

Jedi isn't a spec. It's a social position. Nothing in F&D makes you a Jedi. You could be a Jedi just based on taking Force Exile or Force Emergent. You could take all the specializations in F&D and never at any point actually be a Jedi. So in the end if you don't want to use F&D, just use Force Exile or Emergent and call it a day, since being a Jedi is a function of what you do, not the classes you take.

I've been working and re-working and am still re-working the Jedi Initiate universal spec that I created for my Ways of the Force document. And the biggest hurdle I've had is incorporating elements from Force and Destiny (namely Parry and Reflect) without making it a "gotta have it!" spec for anybody that picks up a lightsaber. Back before FaD this wasn't too big of a deal since lightsabers were fairly rare and I had a cautionary sidebar to warn GMs about some of the potential pitfalls of allowing the Jedi Initiate spec into their games. Now with FaD out and lightsabers generally not as hard to come by (and also not nearly as powerful), I've had to "kill my darling" several times over to keep it from being too good but at the same time not being bland either. I'm generally pleased with where it currently stands, but I'm not entirely happy with it just yet.

Kaosoe's suggestion of using Niman Disciple as a "generic Jedi spec" works quite well, and has the added benefit of it being pretty well-playtested. However, I would not use Vondy's suggestion of effectively handing out the Improved Parry and Improved Reflect talents for free, since those two talents (especially Improved Reflect) can be a very powerful tool in a lightsaber wielder's bag of tricks.

Instead, what you can potentially do is tweak the spec to drop the two telekinetic-based Lightsaber talents for Improved Parry and Improved Reflect, which makes the spec a great deal more generic. It's still going to be very powerful since it'd be offering two very solid counterattack talents as well as an increase to Force Rating. I don't really recommend it because having all three of those talents makes the spec very powerful, but that cost is somewhat mitigated by the fact that an AoR PC would need to purchase Emergent to even get a Force Rating, so it is an option.

I'm mildly surprised there wasn't a Universal, non-career 'Initiate' style spec in Force & Destiny.

The force-user equivalent 'Recruit' as it were, something that covers the basics while the career specs cover the specifics... without being a 'must-have' for every character.

I'm mildly surprised there wasn't a Universal, non-career 'Initiate' style spec in Force & Destiny.

The force-user equivalent 'Recruit' as it were, something that covers the basics while the career specs cover the specifics... without being a 'must-have' for every character.

Huh, interesting.

Grants you Force Rating 1, just like Exile and Emergent. Maybe something that in one column gave you Lightsaber and Discipline as a Career skill, one rank of Parry, one rank of Reflect, one rank of Defensive training, and something at the 25xp tier that connects it to the other three columns. Have those columns filled with useful but not too specific talents; handy stuff, but not Spec defining.

They could have called it "Force Sensitive Initiate"

Yes, DarthGM, that was my thinking too. Something to cover the basics of what a padawan (or non-Jedi equivalent) might have. Nothing too powerful or specific, but useful in general.

I'm surprised overall that we don't see more Universal specialisations, in fact. Could be something round out various non-career books maybe.

I'm mildly surprised there wasn't a Universal, non-career 'Initiate' style spec in Force & Destiny.

The force-user equivalent 'Recruit' as it were, something that covers the basics while the career specs cover the specifics... without being a 'must-have' for every character.

Huh, interesting.

Grants you Force Rating 1, just like Exile and Emergent. Maybe something that in one column gave you Lightsaber and Discipline as a Career skill, one rank of Parry, one rank of Reflect, one rank of Defensive training, and something at the 25xp tier that connects it to the other three columns. Have those columns filled with useful but not too specific talents; handy stuff, but not Spec defining.

They could have called it "Force Sensitive Initiate"

So, if you're playing a pure F&D game, why would you want to start with this sort of character - why would you not just start with a low XP spec from one of the main trees? If there was some sort of "generic initiate" spec then surely everyone would just start out the same?

Alternatively, if you're playing a mixed game - with EotE and/or AoE - and you wanted to do a slow build-up to Jedi, just take Exile and/or Emergent. Emergent in particular definitely fulfills that function. This is, in fact, basically what Luke and Anakin both do - they start of as a EotE spec, take Force-Sensitive Emergent, and once they've developed that they start getting trained and take one of the Jedi specs. Simple.

[As a pointless sidenote: Anakin and Luke were clearly houseruled in their creation. Both of them, I would argue, have Pilot as their spec, but neither of them has Ace or Smuggler as their career. Luke is probably a Colonist, and Anakin is maybe a Technician?]

Alternatively, if you're playing a mixed game - with EotE and/or AoE - and you wanted to do a slow build-up to Jedi, just take Exile and/or Emergent. Emergent in particular definitely fulfills that function. This is, in fact, basically what Luke and Anakin both do - they start of as a EotE spec, take Force-Sensitive Emergent, and once they've developed that they start getting trained and take one of the Jedi specs.

That's sort of my thinking but my issue is that the specs in the FaD book are all built with the assumption that they are starting specs so they all contain various theming Talents that you really don't want or need if your character has a couple themed specs already.

What I was thinking was that this imaginary "Jedi" spec would require a Force Rating of 2 (or so), and thus you couldn't take it until you've maxed out your Force Emergent tree. So, in effect, it would be more similar to the signature ability trees and, thus, have different requirements for balance than a starting spec.

I'm mildly surprised there wasn't a Universal, non-career 'Initiate' style spec in Force & Destiny.

The force-user equivalent 'Recruit' as it were, something that covers the basics while the career specs cover the specifics... without being a 'must-have' for every character.

Well, probably because every PC in FaD starts out as Force-sensitive, so there's less need of an "entry" career into being a Force user. In a matter of speaking, we've already got those in the form of Emergent and Exile.

Plus there was the design intent (as per the lead designer Sam Stewart himself) that FaD PCs weren't really meant to be true Jedi, or even properly trained as a Jedi; instead they were much like Luke in that they were slowly being introduced to a much larger galaxy and their potential as Force users. He did add that he's not 100% adverse to the idea of a universal "Jedi 101" spec and it might be something added in a future supplement, but at the time it wasn't something that fit within what they intended the core rulebook to be, at least at that point in time.

With Recruit, it's there to help out the non-combat careers (Diplomat especially but also Engineer and Spy) gain more combat prowess in order to keep up with Soldiers and Commanders, seeing as how AoR has combat as one of its primary focuses. FaD has learning about the Force and mastering it as a primary campaign focus, and each career already has methods of doing that, including each one having a Lightsaber Form spec attached so that those PCs that want to focus on becoming lightsaber wielders can do so, and even do so at character creation.

As I think a number of us observed in the FaD Beta forums, many of the attempts to create a universal "Jedi" spec leaned towards a power-gamer's fantasy in that they offered all the cool stuff from the LS Form specs (Improved Parry and Improved Reflect) as well as a Force Rating and Dedication talents.

That being said, I do think DarthGM's got some solid suggestions, and they're things I've been keeping in mind with trying to revamp my Jedi Initiate spec so that it'd be handy to have but not a must-have even for the lightsaber user crowd; a way to pick up some generally useful talents and a couple extra Parry and Reflect talents, but not turn into a grab bag of all the really good stuff. And avoiding that, the "grab bag of really good talents" may even have been a factor as to why there was no "universal" spec in FaD.

However, I would not use Vondy's suggestion of effectively handing out the Improved Parry and Improved Reflect talents for free, since those two talents (especially Improved Reflect) can be a very powerful tool in a lightsaber wielder's bag of tricks.

I will say that - for many games - this is a valid criticism. If you are running a mixed group, or a lower-powered game, the power of improved parry and reflect could unbalance the game. I'm coming from the perspective of someone who is running an all-Jedi game that started at knight level and has grown from there. In other words, I don't have to worry about one player character being a Pro-From Dover who steals the other player character's thunder, or blowing out the non-jedi in a fight. Another option would be to offer some "either / or" talent slots. For instance, "Force Assault" or Improved Parry, etc.

However, I would not use Vondy's suggestion of effectively handing out the Improved Parry and Improved Reflect talents for free, since those two talents (especially Improved Reflect) can be a very powerful tool in a lightsaber wielder's bag of tricks.

I will say that - for many games - this is a valid criticism. If you are running a mixed group, or a lower-powered game, the power of improved parry and reflect could unbalance the game. I'm coming from the perspective of someone who is running an all-Jedi game that started at knight level and has grown from there. In other words, I don't have to worry about one player character being a Pro-From Dover who steals the other player character's thunder, or blowing out the non-jedi in a fight. Another option would be to offer some "either / or" talent slots. For instance, "Force Assault" or Improved Parry, etc.

Here's the thing, going back to the OP's post, it sounds an awful lot like there's only going to be one "Jedi" in this group, so the risk runs even higher of that one PC completely outshining the rest of the party simply with the addition of one single spec. And while it may not be the GM's intent, it could also lead to some envy and bad feelings from the other players to this one player if that one player can suddenly run amok over encounters that would be a serious challenge to other party members. Yes, it was cool to see Luke run roughshod over Jabba's goons in RotJ, but that sort of thing doesn't always work very well at a gaming table where very few gamers are happy playing second fiddle all the time to one specific character.

Honestly, swapping out Draw Closer for Improved Parry and Force Assault for Improved Reflect would works a lot better. Yes, the PC is still getting two very effective talents that per RAW they'd have to dip into other specs to snag, but they're also trading them for two other very effective talents and still have to pay XP to get them. It's probably not an ideal solution, but then I doubt anything would be as Jedi characters have a long and storied history of breaking party balance across multiple systems. Thus far at least, FFG's managed to avoid that pitfall.

However, I would not use Vondy's suggestion of effectively handing out the Improved Parry and Improved Reflect talents for free, since those two talents (especially Improved Reflect) can be a very powerful tool in a lightsaber wielder's bag of tricks.

I will say that - for many games - this is a valid criticism. If you are running a mixed group, or a lower-powered game, the power of improved parry and reflect could unbalance the game. I'm coming from the perspective of someone who is running an all-Jedi game that started at knight level and has grown from there. In other words, I don't have to worry about one player character being a Pro-From Dover who steals the other player character's thunder, or blowing out the non-jedi in a fight. Another option would be to offer some "either / or" talent slots. For instance, "Force Assault" or Improved Parry, etc.

/big snip

It's probably not an ideal solution, but then I doubt anything would be as Jedi characters have a long and storied history of breaking party balance across multiple systems. Thus far at least, FFG's managed to avoid that pitfall.

This is why I presented a binary "all Jedi" vs. "no Jedi" scenario for my game. Jedi stories are different, operate on different power levels, have different setting based problems and realities, and often different value-systems, than non-Jedi stories.

There is no monarchal author ordering things and unilaterally deciding all outcomes in order to tell a cohesive story in a table-top roleplaying game. A game-master, even a highly talented one, is a mere shadow of an author in this sense. A great many groups are rank democratic rabbles in which every player creates a disparate cast of characters with different abilities, goals, and desired story experiences.

A good game-master can generally give everyone a moment to shine and work the long-term narrative to give everyone a story they like, but due to the unique nature of a Jedi most systems - very much including this one - tend to hamstring / handicap them for the sake of everyone else's fun. That is, to my way of thinking, very un-fun for people playing Jedi.

Its also why the terror of giving force users lightsabers expressed by many posters in the fora, or neurotic concerns about force ratings rising to (gasp) 3, makes me groan and hit people expressing them about the ears with a nerf bat. A Jedi story is, by definition, superheroic. That's just how it is. A great many run-time problems worry over are solved by judicious design-time decision making.

Sometimes, as counterintuitive as it is to the special-snowflake culture RPGs caters to, less choice vis-a-vis campaign scrope and character concept, results in more fun.

I'd say just use the entire Jedi Consular from F&D. And the Morality rules can be used easily

I'm mildly surprised there wasn't a Universal, non-career 'Initiate' style spec in Force & Destiny.

The force-user equivalent 'Recruit' as it were, something that covers the basics while the career specs cover the specifics... without being a 'must-have' for every character.

I agree there should be an entry level "universal" spec for padawans / initiates. However, it would be pretty easy to file the serial numbers off of the Force Sensitive or Emergent trees to that effect.

I'm mildly surprised there wasn't a Universal, non-career 'Initiate' style spec in Force & Destiny.

The force-user equivalent 'Recruit' as it were, something that covers the basics while the career specs cover the specifics... without being a 'must-have' for every character.

I agree there should be an entry level "universal" spec for padawans / initiates. However, it would be pretty easy to file the serial numbers off of the Force Sensitive or Emergent trees to that effect.

The Emergent Tree is a pretty good "adult student of a Jedi" tree.

I don't like the names for these two trees. The use feels backwards...

Prior to FaD I had any Jedi characters in my game take a normal career/specialization to demonstrate the characters focus and one of the Force Sensitive specs to provide the force side. So a Force healer might have colonist/doctor and one of the Force sensitive universal specs, while a force pilot would likely have ace/pilot and one of the Force sensitive universal specs, and a lightsaber monkey would be Hired Gun/marauder and one of the Force sensitive universal specs.

This is something I have contemplated returning to for subsequent games now that I have actually run FaD as I am not so keen on some aspects.

Prior to FaD I had any Jedi characters in my game take a normal career/specialization to demonstrate the characters focus and one of the Force Sensitive specs to provide the force side. So a Force healer might have colonist/doctor and one of the Force sensitive universal specs, while a force pilot would likely have ace/pilot and one of the Force sensitive universal specs, and a lightsaber monkey would be Hired Gun/marauder and one of the Force sensitive universal specs.

This is something I have contemplated returning to for subsequent games now that I have actually run FaD as I am not so keen on some aspects.

Given that Force and Destiny careers generally allude to the PC having had some prior training and experience with the Force, that's not such a bad idea.

I'd say that unless your player can provide a convincing backstory as to why their PC would have had some degree of proper training in the Force (and thus be eligible for a Force and Destiny career), then they'd have to go the AoR/EotE route of being a Force-sensitive.

I made a Jedi career back in the day. It was fun, and I think it saw some use outside my table. I've seen it floating around in the Interwebs But I haven't revisited it for a few years now, so I would probably have a very different idea of how to handle things. As far as homebrew goes, I like DarthGM's ideas on the FS Initiate the best. As far as RAW goes, I agree that the Niman Disciple is just about perfect if you just want to play "Jedi with a lightsaber;" it has nearly everything. And Dono's suggestions for talent replacements are solid, making it a more general "Jedi spec" without unbalancing it.