Jousting and planning ahead is a lost art, and Xizor's incredible ability is about the least understood in the game. You don't need to arcdodge with it up.

The always-on, action independent better-than-evade with an always underestimated range of 1 (two ship bases, only need one ship within said range to work) is one of the most powerful effects in the game

Problem is people are firmly clamped on soonts and Vader for some reason, and don't see how a PS 9 Bwing with full damage mods, boost, segnors and an incredible dial can compete

It's probably the least understood, most underestimated ship in the game. What you need is an "I don't give a **** attitude" that would be suicidal on an imperial ship, but not with the prince

Except for the generics, they're just too expensive

I really don't get the "weak aces" comment. Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship. I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what? Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good. What's "weak" about him?

Yes, you need to make him PS9 to improve him. The issue is, in order to get the most out of his ship, you have to break away and essentially ignore his ability. I don't think every ace needs Push the Limit, but most perform the best with Push, Predator, or Veteran Instincts, barring specific interactions with certain pilots. Point is, once you get Xizor to a powerful state with upgrades, he is similarly costed to Soontir Fel or a Phantom, and quite frankly cannot compete with their survivability or maneuverability at the same cost. If you play him a lot, you'll win some games, even against weak matchups, but on the whole he costs far too much for his ability. Guri suffers from similar issues. It isn't so much that the ship is weak in theory, it is that it is weak in the meta because similarly priced ships can perform far and away much better than he can.

Early/mid-game Xizor flies with his royal guard, who step up to bravely shoulder the task of getting His Purple Majesty to the endgame pretty much unscathed. In the early going he's a super-jouster, shooting first with a bunch of blockers to set targets up for him and never worry about keeping tokens back for defence.

Late-game he's a dancing-master. When it's one-on-one FCS grants him a Super-Predator ability, he's got Autothrusters for defence and that wild, wide-open Starviper dial plus whatever Ilicit tricks he's kept up his sleeve.

Xizor's biggest problems are a) he's capped at PS9 which means you need to avoid getting too close to VI Darth or Corran or whoever in the endgame, b) you kind of need to build the rest of your list around him and c) his ability doesn't work on TLTs. But The Artist Formerly And Currently Known As Prince Xizor is legit.

I flew a Starviper for the first time last weekend in a medium sized tournament (16 players). Had only one loss and took 4th place overall.

Guri was my pilot, and I gave her the title, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, Advanced Sensors, and predator. She did quite well.

Rest of the list included a Talonbane Cobra w/ Predator & glitterstim, and an M3A with Heavy Laser Cannon.

Strengths: Like others said, she wasn't seen as the biggest threat on the board, so people usually went after someone else. This helped her move around without too much worry. Autothrusters works well on her as well. It's nice having an S-Loop, but so many popular ships have something like that now that it's no longer as unique. Her pilot ability is amazing. She is only really vulnerable when at range 2, since 1 gives her a free focus, and 3 gives her autothrusters. Even stress don't stop her ability!

Weakness: Carnor Jax is a near perfect counter to her, faced him round 1, had to keep her away from him. Her low Pilot Skill is a problem, but I'm ok with that. 5 is my magic number, because for the most part I'm concerned with shooting before the TLT Swarms start spamming me, and those are usually PS 2 or 4. One thing I REALLY wish the Starviper had was an Evade action. With autothrusters and Guri's ability, the ability to evade would make her also Soontir Fel-like.

here, visual references for the difference between Soontir and Xizor

the above is Xizor, kicking the Baron's teeth in

no actions? who gives a ****!?

similar, below is Xizor 1-turning after a segnor's, through a debris field. That's double stress. How many **** do you think he gives?

about infinetly less than soontir is how many

and that's the deal with Xizor

I really don't get the "weak aces" comment. Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship. I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what? Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good. What's "weak" about him?

Yes, you need to make him PS9 to improve him. The issue is, in order to get the most out of his ship, you have to break away and essentially ignore his ability. I don't think every ace needs Push the Limit, but most perform the best with Push, Predator, or Veteran Instincts, barring specific interactions with certain pilots. Point is, once you get Xizor to a powerful state with upgrades, he is similarly costed to Soontir Fel or a Phantom, and quite frankly cannot compete with their survivability or maneuverability at the same cost. If you play him a lot, you'll win some games, even against weak matchups, but on the whole he costs far too much for his ability.

Xizor can at least get up to PS9 with VI, but his ability doesn't do anything if you're zipping around the board and not hugging your lackey ships.

I've played a lot of Xizor and I have rarely had an issue with keeping him in range of 5 Z-95's. Most of the time I fail it's when I've misjudged the distance by a smidgeon (technical term there).

I think it's because of how you fly it. It starts off as a jouster and flies at enemy formations. Xizor and 5 Z's can usually get through a lot of defense and put the hurt on someone, especially if there is bumpage. if you tier your swarm you can usually cover most flight paths of enemy ships and ensure you have a few more rounds of firing at them. Even the Z's get through when your opponent has no actions. You can keep players tied up for a few rounds that way. Xizor with the FCS can usually do a lot of damage, even if he's bumping due to FCS. I often give him a Flechette Torp to stress out a ship and make it even easier to blockade someone in.

Once you need to turn around, the S-loop, Barrel Rolls, and the hard turns really keep you near someone. Or using asteroids to turn around for a turn and keep near the Z's.

Late game is when he changes gears and becomes the arc dodger. I recall winning a tournament even by having just Xizor following behind a Super Dash and keeping in R1. He just couldn't get out of my range and I was blasting him at R1 with FCS every turn.

DANG IT! NINJAED BY RODAFOWA.

I will say that with the latest PS bid war going on that he can suffer. It's great when he can go ahead of people, but not utterly crucial as much as say Soontir Fel.

A 39 pt Guri beat the snot out of me last night 3 times. With the title, wired, SJ and autothrusters she was a PITA to try and kill. Expensive? Yeah but evidently worth it.

Oh yes, Guri is a vicious little minx. The last game I played with her she one-shotted two TIE/fo's.

She has multiple usable builds as well.

Lone Wolf, Wired, Push the Limit and Predator are all great Elite Talents for her.

Advanced Sensors and Sensor Jammer are both really good too.

Autothrusters is her insurance policy, and Inertial Dampners can be awesome (especially combined with Advanced Sensors).

The Prince doesn't necessarily need a lot of upgrades, benefits from Veteran Instincts and some mooks surrounding him. FCS is a good option on Xizor if you're using the title, as it helps out his action economy. You can also take Glitterstim for when his escort vanishes.

I think some of the disillusionment towards the StarViper comes from the generics, which are quite limited in what they can offer for their price. You can take four naked PS1 Enforcers at 100 points. That's not fantastic value, when you consider you can get 5 Alpha Squadron pilots (with Autothrusters) for the same price. And with only the modification really slot available to upgrade the Enforcers and Vigos with, there's not really a whole lot else you can do.

That soontir gave me an eye-gasm! Not bad on the Prince either! Great painting skillz!

Jousting and planning ahead is a lost art

Perhaps not completely, but I agree. People do tend to see 'arc dodging' as purely something that can only be done if you're a higher PS than your opponent, and it really isn't. You see the same thing here and there with people who've been practicing with Blue Ace - they're rare but it's easy to find them, listen for the cries of "How the **** did he get there?!?!" from their opponents as they desperately try to figure out a safe place for Soontir to boost or barrel roll to...

With a bit of practice, a really good dial and some forethought can often compensate, and as noted, Xizor will almost always start the 'endgame' duel intact, whilst Soontir (or whoever) has hopefully been winged at least once by a hail of fire from Xizor's (now dead) escorts, or lightly tazered by feedback arrays, or whatever.

I concur that the StarViper does best when built to work with or without actions - Sensor Jammer is a surprisingly good stand-in for evade, and Lone Wolf is an odd but very good elite talent for him - the logic (which the people who use him locally seem to find sound) is that Lone Wolf is the single best talent going for a late game ace fighting the enemy solo - and this is a situation Xizor is almost garuanteed to end up in; the elite talent picks up where his pilot ability leaves off after the last escorting Z-95 explodes.

And yes, I'd only ever use one StarViper, because the difference between the Virago and a Not-The Virago is just huge.

Advanced Sensors on the Starviper is pretty huge. Boost before S-Loop, and you'll be in such a strange position your lower Pilot Skill won't really have mattered.

Advanced Sensors on the Starviper is pretty huge. Boost before S-Loop, and you'll be in such a strange position your lower Pilot Skill won't really have mattered.

It's great when your opponent is flying lots of low PS blockers, too. Especially in combination with Inertial Dampners.

^{Having just played Xizor last weekend I can say he is very good...when flown right. I was able to get a lot of range 1 shots and I think I passed off around four points of damage to Bossk rather than Xizor taking the damage. He got blown up at the end of the game only because Bossk was an 1/10 of an inch outside of range one.}

The Star Viper could have been a very good ship even with the dial being ok but i would have needed

1. +1 Shield( right now it's too fragile, Xizor would have designed a sturdier ship)

2. EPT on the Vigo

3. Virago for free

4. -2 cost

The Generics have no place in most any list these days. Guri shines very brightly but Xizor struggles still, it's the Ewing of the scum faction and while it is not useless it still needs a little something before it, as a ship, is good.

... Lone Wolf is an odd but very good elite talent for him - the logic (which the people who use him locally seem to find sound) is that Lone Wolf is the single best talent going for a late game ace fighting the enemy solo - and this is a situation Xizor is almost garuanteed to end up in; the elite talent picks up where his pilot ability leaves off after the last escorting Z-95 explodes.

That's kind of how I feel about Lone Wolf on Vessery as well.

I really don't get the "weak aces" comment. Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship. I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what? Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good. What's "weak" about him?

Nothing weak about Guri and Advanced Proton Torpedoes....

Except it's half your list. Which means the list is weak.

I really don't get the "weak aces" comment. Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship. I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what? Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good. What's "weak" about him?

It's 37pt minimum with that setup, with no initiative bid and no body guards. I think it's fine, but it's hard to argue for that Xizor at 37pts compared to what 35pts worth of Vader or Soontir can get you, imho.

Jousting and planning ahead is a lost art, and Xizor's incredible ability is about the least understood in the game. You don't need to arcdodge with it up.

The always-on, action independent better-than-evade with an always underestimated range of 1 (two ship bases, only need one ship within said range to work) is one of the most powerful effects in the game

Problem is people are firmly clamped on soonts and Vader for some reason, and don't see how a PS 9 Bwing with full damage mods, boost, segnors and an incredible dial can compete

It's probably the least understood, most underestimated ship in the game. What you need is an "I don't give a **** attitude" that would be suicidal on an imperial ship, but not with the prince

Truth. Myself included.

Ship is difficult because it can do anything yet it has no readily identifiable cookie cutter builds like say squints. Stats like an E dial like a super B, inherent boost/BR, rare access to systems + AT + EPT. Players don't like ships like that because they are difficult to define a role yet take significant investment.

Only reason I even know this ship exists is because I wanted autothrusters.. then one day on a whim I fielded guri and lo she was insane!

Then died to the first mistake I made lol. now THATs my kind of ship.

The Generics have no place in most any list these days. Guri shines very brightly but Xizor struggles still, it's the Ewing of the scum faction and while it is not useless it still needs a little something before it, as a ship, is good.

I don't get the opinion on Xizor. I found him to be the most viable of all the Starvipers.

I really don't get the "weak aces" comment. Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship. I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what? Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good. What's "weak" about him?

It's 37pt minimum with that setup, with no initiative bid and no body guards. I think it's fine, but it's hard to argue for that Xizor at 37pts compared to what 35pts worth of Vader or Soontir can get you, imho.

I don't really get sometimes when people compare between different options of a different faction. It doesn't matter how much Soontir costs. It matters if you can build the rest of Scum list with Xizor that is effective. If something works in a list that you can build and it's effective, who cares how much it costs when compared to another faction that's not even an option in your list?

If you want to say that for x points you can take a different Scum pilot in the same list and it works better, than that might be an argument, but it's kind of a mute point the way you are talking about it. It's like saying Tie Bombers with ordnance aren't good because Cannons are better. Tie Bombers can't take Cannons! Few Imp ships can. What's the point of comparing the two?

The title should have maybe added a shield and maybe make it two points. That way the aces can get a little more durability to offset their price.

I'm not sure how you help the generics.

I look forward to trying a cloaking device on Xizor with advanced sensors. The ended positions you can end up after decloaking rival Echo's. Of course you have a 25% chance of losing it, but it can be a game changer if used at the right time. He also gets 5 agility while cloaked. He'll be nearly impossible to land damage on.

I really don't get the "weak aces" comment. Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship. I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what? Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good. What's "weak" about him?

Nothing weak about Guri and Advanced Proton Torpedoes....

Except it's half your list. Which means the list is weak.

Just like those weak lists that take up half their points (or more) with Han or Horn....

I think the Starviper needs just a nudge, it isn't a bad ship but it is a little bit too expensive. Like others have already said most people try to fly it like an arc dodging ace which doesn't work for the pilots we have.

My experience with the Viper has been with Guri. I love flying Guri. She is a menace to everything on the board. Against lower PS she can arc dodge but I normally try to come in fast but separate from the other ships in the list. I normally run her with Autothrusters, Predator, Virago, and Sensor Jammer and she can be pretty tough to hit that way. Against higher PS I often will just use her to block, which she is really good at with the Viper's dial plus Boost and Barrel Roll. Once she is in range one of anything she is tough to shake, you can run away but you are only showing her your back.

After a while the guys at my local store started to catch on and were gunning her down early. Then the Kihraxz came and Talonbane Cobra showed up to take the heat off of her. I dropped the title and sensor jammer to save five points and switched predator for outmaneuver. There was something else in the list as well but I don't recall what at the moment. In any case that list was really fun and Guri was really effective because she was ignored early for fear of the Cobra.

Guri is pretty versatile in my experience, I think a lot of upgrades can work well. I have tried Lone Wolf, Predator, Outmaneuver, PtL, and Crackshot for EPTs. All of them work well. **For PtL you can't use it every turn and then take a green like you would on an A-Wing or Squint, you use it when you don't care about getting rid of the stress on the next move or you are sure that your next move will be green. I plan to try Expose on her when I get back to experimenting, saving it until I am at range one for the free focus so I can hit like a Phantom. FCS and Advanced Sensors are also worth considering, but so far Sensor Jammer has made it's cost back and then some for me so often that I have stuck with it.

I want to spend some more time with Xizor and also try the generics. Right now though I am practicing a list for the upcoming tournaments.

I really don't get the "weak aces" comment. Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship. I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what? Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good. What's "weak" about him?

Yes, you need to make him PS9 to improve him. The issue is, in order to get the most out of his ship, you have to break away and essentially ignore his ability. I don't think every ace needs Push the Limit, but most perform the best with Push, Predator, or Veteran Instincts, barring specific interactions with certain pilots. Point is, once you get Xizor to a powerful state with upgrades, he is similarly costed to Soontir Fel or a Phantom, and quite frankly cannot compete with their survivability or maneuverability at the same cost. If you play him a lot, you'll win some games, even against weak matchups, but on the whole he costs far too much for his ability. Guri suffers from similar issues. It isn't so much that the ship is weak in theory, it is that it is weak in the meta because similarly priced ships can perform far and away much better than he can.

I've seen StarVipers work, and I've seen them perform well. But, any time I have seen them perform well, it was a naked or mostly naked Generic. Take the cheapest one, give it Autothrusters at maximum, and then fill your lists with bigger threats.

This perfectly summarizes why some players do not see the value in the Starviper. The Starviper is not an Interceptor that relies on arc dodging. It is also not a tank that just flies right into a swarm. It is a fighter with high damage output and considerable defenses. The Starviper does not need to go last. In fact, it's best they don't. The four pilots are placed right where a fighter of this class would want to be. PS1 - moves first and sets the stage. These ships can block and force the action to where the player controlling the Starviper(s) want it to be. PS3 - moves after the PS1 and 2 filler or swarm and BEFORE mid PS ships. This Starvipers excels at reacting to swarms and controlling mid-level ships. PS 5 and 7 moves BEFORE the aces. A Soontir player is going to have to think about were Guri and/or Xizor or going to end up. The player controlling these Starvipers can then move the rest of his fleet toward the direction that is not covered by Guri/Xizor. This leaves the Ace player in a bad way. Do they risk being shot at by the Starviper or the rest of the opposing player's fleet?

Starvipers are rarely about reacting post dial to your opponent and much more about forcing your opponent to consider the Starviper pre-dial or suffer the consequences.

As others have mentioned, the StarViper's biggest problem isn't the stats and available upgrades ... it's the lack of worthwhile ace pilots (and worthwhile ace pilot abilities) at the current squad point price.

There are worse ships in terms of stats/upgrade slots and more expensive ships in terms of squad points that are FAR more popular simply because they have awesome named/unique pilots with killer pilot skills.

Just look at the popularity of the new standard TIEs from the Assault Carrier expansion (like Wampa) or the new TIE/FO named pilots ... those ships don't have the impressive stats of the StarViper but they have AWESOME pilot abilities AND they cost fewer squad points.

Here's another example; you could add a fully tricked-out Carnor Jax TIE Interceptor (PTL, Royal Guard TIE upgrade, Hull Upgrade and Autothursters) for the same cost of the Guri StarViper with just Autothursters and a comparatively "meh" EPT like Bodyguard.

In that comparison, Carnor Jax not only has a better pilot ability than Guri, but he can also afford a better EPT and has evade along with an arguably better maneuver dial.

That's just one of several examples but that right there is why so many people dislike the StarViper. If the StarViper's named pilots had better pilot abilities or if each StarViper was 4 squad points less than its current price then more people would run StarViper builds.

I don't think this is an apples to apples comparison. IF you are picking the Scum faction, you can only compare options in that faction. Same for Empire or Rebel.

While you might get more for your money with Imperial on this one, maybe there are other balancing things in the Scum faction that put it on par with Imperial.

I've learned long ago from other games that it is always a mistake to compare units cross-faction as though all other variables are equal.

You guys are really making me want to fly my (2) StarVipers. Up until now I've only had limited experience with them. Guri is my favorite, because I like her ability better, but I actually quite enjoyed flying Xizor as well. On paper, I'm not a fan, but once I got him onto the table surrounded by goons he was a lot of fun to fly.

... Lone Wolf is an odd but very good elite talent for him - the logic (which the people who use him locally seem to find sound) is that Lone Wolf is the single best talent going for a late game ace fighting the enemy solo - and this is a situation Xizor is almost garuanteed to end up in; the elite talent picks up where his pilot ability leaves off after the last escorting Z-95 explodes.

That's kind of how I feel about Lone Wolf on Vessery as well.

I have ran Lone Wolf Vessery a few times in the past, he is a beast!