Even if Xizor was good (which I don't belive I still think he is too expensive) it wouldn't make the viper a good ship, the generics are still an issue. Its a bit like corin and Ewing, the difference is that FFG can improve the viper without turning Xizor into a monster.

The deal with the StarViper is that you get Autothrusters.

Yep, two copies of a good upgrade and a good ship. That's a great deal!

I've found that my Xizor list eats fat turret lists quite nicely. You have to know how fat turrets fly and how to block them, but it's really easy once you figure it out. The thing about the Z-95 swarm that is different than the Tie swarm is that you don't have to fly in formation. You fly one or two out and block their escape boost route and then lay into them. I played my Xizor list back in the fat turret days and they were almost always a win for me.

Brobots/aces are tougher, but the principle's not much different - block 'em and mug 'em.

FLY, MY PRETTY HULL UPGRADES THAT SHOOT BACK! FLYYYYYYYYY!!!

You could play this a few ways. My default would be to run the Zs in front of Xizor and force ships to run into them setting up Xizor for R1 shots against a tokenless ship. Run Guri as a flanker and cover Xizors's flank.

Cheers Stone37! In this particular style of list I prefer to have the Virago title (and Advanced Sensors) on Guri, so she can run wild and free as nature intended while Xizor sticks close to his mooks.

And giving Guri FCS helps her get the most out of her ability.

I gave the goodies to Xizor here because I'm prepping for the long game. He's my highest PS and I don't intend for anything higher than him to be alive after the Zs are gone. The trap often leads to one dead Soontir (or other ace). Soontir ends up running into one of the Zs and is without actions for Defense. After Xizor rolls 3 or 4 red dice with a TL and focus, if there is anything left to mop up, that blocking Z gets his auto hit from Feedback Array. I feel bad for the other guy every time I watch it happen. (But I smile to myself as I watch the ship leave the board.) When the Zs are gone, or not close enough to Xizor anymore, FCS helps keep the focus for defense.

The beauty of this list, I think, is you could swap up who gets the title and it would still be just as effective. Only the long term game plan changes.

True, but the Starviper isn't just an arc dodging ace. It's also an excellent jouster, especially early game Xizor. It's not as good as the really big 3, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Also, it's excellent as an early game jouster. It's not to be compared to the super arc dodging aces as it's a different beast.

What are the big three jousters?

I'll wager 200 quatloos on Stone37.

I'll back that bet too.

Guri's crazy enough as it is; PS9 and she'd be insane.

I'm contemplating XIzor, Guri & 2 Z95's for the next store tourney.

Gecko, I just made a similar build 2 days ago, and I'm tweaking it to the best advantages both Viper pilots have

Anyone ever run Guri with just autothrusters?

32 points seems like a fair deal.

Anyone ever run Guri with just autothrusters?

32 points seems like a fair deal.

It would be a shame to waste that EPT slot. Even if you just put a 1 pointer in it. There are actually many 1 point EPTs to choose from now. It's to the point that VI is not the auto-include anymore for that last stray point.

Anyone ever run Guri with just autothrusters?

32 points seems like a fair deal.

Yup its not bad but include lonewolf. Probably the best performing budget version of a viper I've seen.

Even if Xizor was good (which I don't belive I still think he is too expensive) it wouldn't make the viper a good ship, the generics are still an issue. Its a bit like corin and Ewing, the difference is that FFG can improve the viper without turning Xizor into a monster.

If the list works well, who cares how many points one ship is? It gets kind of silly if you start to look at points and compare to other factions, but the list still works great at the points level it is.

Brobots/aces are tougher, but the principle's not much different - block 'em and mug 'em.

I found Bro Bots to be even easier. They have always flown the same to me. One is the bait while the other comes up from the side. If you let them, the bait will boost or s-loop out of the way and then they will destroy you. The Flechette Torpedo is fantastic to hit the bait on that crucial turn. You know their green moves to clear stress and can block them. They can't S-loop and with 5 Z's you can block all their moves, it makes it pretty easy to trap that one. You usually can't kill it, but you can cripple it. After that, it can usually get away. Sometimes I chase it to kill it and sometimes I let it run and just turn to kill the other one. They never really expect that and one Bro Bot vs. your list doesn't work out well. So, kill that one and then go for the last guy (who's wounded). I defeated two identical Bro Bots this way at Regionals.

True, but the Starviper isn't just an arc dodging ace. It's also an excellent jouster, especially early game Xizor. It's not as good as the really big 3, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Also, it's excellent as an early game jouster. It's not to be compared to the super arc dodging aces as it's a different beast.

What are the big three jousters?

Err....sorry. Confusing wording. big 3 were the arc dodgers. Trying to say he's not as good as the big 3 super arc dodgers and he's not the best jouster (though, he's really not far off), but he's pretty darn good at both. He's less specialized at one thing and good at both. So, it's unfair to say he sucks at arc dodging b/c he's not Soontir Fel.

True, but the Starviper isn't just an arc dodging ace. It's also an excellent jouster, especially early game Xizor. It's not as good as the really big 3, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Also, it's excellent as an early game jouster. It's not to be compared to the super arc dodging aces as it's a different beast.

What are the big three jousters?

Poe

Poe

...stress hog?

True, but the Starviper isn't just an arc dodging ace. It's also an excellent jouster, especially early game Xizor. It's not as good as the really big 3, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Also, it's excellent as an early game jouster. It's not to be compared to the super arc dodging aces as it's a different beast.

What are the big three jousters?

Poe

Poe

...stress hog?

Surely Coran counts as a jouster?

True, but the Starviper isn't just an arc dodging ace. It's also an excellent jouster, especially early game Xizor. It's not as good as the really big 3, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Also, it's excellent as an early game jouster. It's not to be compared to the super arc dodging aces as it's a different beast.

What are the big three jousters?

Poe

Poe

...stress hog?

Funny thing: Whisper is one now, and she's still a tough nut.

Other two jousters are rebel regeners Poe and Horn. can be classified by "Rebel regen jouster"

The third I presume is a Bro-Crab-Bot. With PS6 it's no dodger and definitely not a turret either. You just S-loop instead of K-turning most of the time,

Xizor's not getting near them in the matter.

I would classify the X-wing and the E-wing both as fighters.

Interceptors (like the TIE Interceptor and A-wing) are flank runners that use speed and positioning as defense

Tanks are the heavily armored ships like the B-wing and the Y-wing. They are designed to take a beating.

Assault ships work best when supported by the other ship types and provide area control and other benefits for a fleet.

It isn't always easy to place a ship purely in one of these classes (Fighter, Interceptor, Tank, Assault), but it is pretty easy to see the area they often excel in or areas it can be placed in.

I think the StarViper demands more from the player than other ships and that is off putting for some people. Just like the Defender, it is not immediately obvious what you are to do with it and its plethora of options. Before you know it, it has become the lynch pin of the list with no means to make up for it.

My list has been as follows:

Guri: Predator, Title, Sensor Jammer, Autothrusters

Palob: Predator, TLT, Title

2 x Black Sun Headhunters.

98 points - The one adjustable feature is between tactician on Palob or Flechette on Guri.

Guri in particular goes great with the scum HWK pilots. I personally love to put an APT on Guri along with FCS. Those six red dice are going to hit, and with Palob's help, most ships will go down from this attack.

The main point I see here: IF you can make the other 65 points of list work better than Imp 65 remaining points

screw these 35 handicapped points. (sorry, Xiz)

make the whole list out of those

That's not always how listbuilding works, though. Often you want the flexibility that comes with having ships with different strengths and weaknesses together. Ace-and-a-miniswarm is A Thing for a reason, you know?

You don't take 35 points that could be spent better. Period.

Ace and miniswarm is made from good ace and good swarm.

You don't put Tur and Tie-fos

You take Vader\Fel and ton of academies

no points spend on sub-par choices = good list building.

An expensive ship has to have damage mitigation.

Evade action is a simple example of one, defensive abilities, regen are others.

Evade works every time.

Focus can not work at all, or you can roll 3\3 eyeballs.

word "RELIABLE" is a good word.

that's why green dice are considered...not often better than just a ton of shields.

The Starviper's got access to Autothrusters (unlike, say, Darth), and Xizor's got one of the best damage-mitigation abilities in the game.

For the number of times in a game I'm taking Evade over Focus when I've only got one action (maybe, I don't know, once or twice per ship unless I'm flying Accuracy Corrector?) I don't see 0.25 less evade results per roll on average as that big a deal. Certainly not the difference between a PS1 StarViper being playable and not.

0.25 is just mathwing.

roll 0 dice and you go DERP. Evade works every time.

Roll 3 focus with an evade token and you're going to derp just as hard as 0 eyeballs with a focus token if you've got a lotta hits/crits coming your way. Just because it's a guaranteed 1 evade doesn't always make it bteter.

The Star Viper could have been a very good ship even with the dial being ok but i would have needed

1. +1 Shield( right now it's too fragile, Xizor would have designed a sturdier ship)

2. EPT on the Vigo

3. Virago for free

4. -2 cost

Eh.. That would Make it the most b0rken ship in the entire history of the game Then.

The Star Viper could have been a very good ship even with the dial being ok but i would have needed

1. +1 Shield( right now it's too fragile, Xizor would have designed a sturdier ship)

2. EPT on the Vigo

3. Virago for free

4. -2 cost

Eh.. That would Make it the most b0rken ship in the entire history of the game Then.

... actually. that would be about right! haha. Especially with the current PS for the pilots.

The Starviper is suffering from 3dice overcost in the 30 point range.

Has really poor PS. It needs all of these things.

Honestly, the virago should not have been a unique title. they all should have sensor and illicit.

---

Wait, what if the starviper fix is just virago1 virago2 virago. HAHA so you could get all 3 starvipers with a virago title!

The Star Viper could have been a very good ship even with the dial being ok but i would have needed

1. +1 Shield( right now it's too fragile, Xizor would have designed a sturdier ship)

2. EPT on the Vigo

3. Virago for free

4. -2 cost

Eh.. That would Make it the most b0rken ship in the entire history of the game Then.

... actually. that would be about right! haha. Especially with the current PS for the pilots.

The Starviper is suffering from 3dice overcost in the 30 point range.

Has really poor PS. It needs all of these things.

Honestly, the virago should not have been a unique title. they all should have sensor and illicit.

---

Wait, what if the starviper fix is just virago1 virago2 virago. HAHA so you could get all 3 starvipers with a virago title!

I stated this way back near the begining of the this thread, I totally agree!!!!!

If no one minds, let's slightly hijack this thread:

What should scum be about? It feels like FFG doesn't quite have it down in terms of competitive material.

Here's why: The Punishing one seems to be the scum's new PWT taking the faction back into a normal playstyle like the other two factions. However its missing a prominent ace.

Imo, I really hope when they finally spoil the Punishing one that there's some restriction to simply slapping on the 3rd die title and running around like a PWT. I know there might be a better build with ordnance that they're hinting at, but honestly, did we NEED another PWT?

In Emp and Reb we use other aces to hunt aces. scum can't do that.

What if scum instead flips it on its head. Give its generics upgrades like Feedback array (but better!) that make scum's generics the ace hunters. And then their mid PS super power ships like IG and Starviiper can really own the day against other generics? What if scum had more crazy debilitating effects that punish other factions for putting too much into one or two ships?

No we did not need another PWT

We also didn't get one

Jumpy is a torpedo boat of extraordinary potential (deadeye + r4 + chips) And a Yt2400 analog with Dengar subbing in for an HLC

Scum's mo is "**** dice"

FCS + xizor's anti crap green dice ability

R4 aggros

K4 security/outlaw tech

Gunner + bossk crew

Ig-88b

Glitterstim

Feedback array

Etc

Now we're getting another r4 platform + some **** YOUR dice with zuckuss/4lom crew

Ito this, xizor is a great dice retardant pilot with access to full offensivecmods, autothrusters + an incredible defensive ability, a lovely action bar and a very good dial

The Star Viper could have been a very good ship even with the dial being ok but i would have needed

1. +1 Shield( right now it's too fragile, Xizor would have designed a sturdier ship)

2. EPT on the Vigo

3. Virago for free

4. -2 cost

Eh.. That would Make it the most b0rken ship in the entire history of the game Then.

It would. The only thing that is missing from the Starviper that should be included at the current price point is an illicit slot.

I don't think it would break the game to make the Virago title a common one. The price for that title is fair, and 2 Starvipers with FCS would be AWESOME!

Depending on dial, Jumpmaster might be able to do some ace hunting itself. A VI Dengar is PS11, meaning it can Barrel Roll (or boost with engine upgrade) realistically after everyone but Vader. Couple that with the great incentive to keep the enemy ace in arc and Dengar might not play much like a fat PWT at all. Tel Trevura (with hull upgrade and whatever presumably adds 3 shields) will be the Scum fat PWT, not Dengar, IMO at least

If no one minds, let's slightly hijack this thread:

What should scum be about? It feels like FFG doesn't quite have it down in terms of competitive material.

Here's why: The Punishing one seems to be the scum's new PWT taking the faction back into a normal playstyle like the other two factions. However its missing a prominent ace.

Imo, I really hope when they finally spoil the Punishing one that there's some restriction to simply slapping on the 3rd die title and running around like a PWT. I know there might be a better build with ordnance that they're hinting at, but honestly, did we NEED another PWT?

In Emp and Reb we use other aces to hunt aces. scum can't do that.

What if scum instead flips it on its head. Give its generics upgrades like Feedback array (but better!) that make scum's generics the ace hunters. And then their mid PS super power ships like IG and Starviiper can really own the day against other generics? What if scum had more crazy debilitating effects that punish other factions for putting too much into one or two ships?

Well, I've already spit some bile in like 4 threads already on the topic of "what should Scum be like"

S&V must play dirty.

Scum only Illicit-slot bombs like "junk cloud" that acts like debris field

Heavy duty tractor beams

Amoral Eval with G1 crew members onboard (Oh that's dirty!)

(Tested him only once, that's simply BRUTAL)

Or just give S&V their own aces to cope with enemy, or some control options.