I faced a TIE swarm in my last game and they were incredibly effective, albeit i made a stupid move that aided their effectiveness. After a few turns of my xwing/Jan Ors group keeping the swarm busy Jan and friends died and i decided it would be a good move to go and land my MC80 Home One on top of the swarm as it would enable me to broadside from either side two glads. I was far too close to the Glads and despite giving them an absolute pasting they then returned fire and pretty much stripped all my shields. Then in the squadron phase all the TIEs shot at the MC80. That amount of dice add up and they put 4 damage cards on me. That basically meant that with the Imp player have initiative he was able to activate first and easily blow the MC80 apart.

Taken in numbers and their swarm ability utilised alongside Howlrunner and perhaps Flight controllers they are deadly. Anti squadron fire from ships is bad for them due to their hull 3 but in the games i have played there was always a ship i would rather be firing at so firing at the TIEs seemed a waste.

Very interesting choice of tactics, going for a huge swarm, it's definitely worth a try : overwhelming the enemy squadrons through pure numbers while the ships perform in ship to ship duty.

It would be interesting to see how a couple of TIE Advanced sprinkled in would do the job, just to add that extra resilience to the fighters.

It changes the dynamic a bit, as you can't have the full 16-squad swarm with more than one TA (1 TA and 15 TIEs is doable, though). But if you take three TAs, you can fit another 12 TIEs for 15 squadrons total (which isn't shabby), and four TAs leaves room for 10 TIEs, which at fourteen squads is still a sizeable fighter force with a little more staying power. There's a minor downgrade in offensive efficiency since the TAs don't have Swarm, but if it buys a few TIEs another round of firing, that probably increases your offensive output overall, and you have something more resilient (and deadly) to throw at ships if the enemy's fighter screen is low. Same with mixing in some Interceptors with TAs, for a potent alpha-strike with staying power, while the rest of your generic TIEs set up for the killing move through overwhelming force.

Another alternative is to run 6 TIE bombers with 10 TIE fighters (exactly 134 points). Without Intel, they're only pegging ships if you send them on reaaaaaaaaaaly long flight trajectories, or if you overwhelm opposing squadrons early, but it's a more well-rounded fighter force to be sure, while still offering imposing numbers. X-wings are great, but Adar and Yavaris aside, they only shoot at one thing per round, so having more targets than they can shoot at is an advantage. Bombers have less brute power against squadrons, but including them gives the opponent more interesting choices to make when in combat, which is always fun (if I'm an X-wing, do I shoot at a TIE fighter and maybe remove it from play, or do I shoot at a bomber which is more resilient and dangerous, and risk that the TIE and his bros will overwhelm me next turn?). Mixing in Interceptors works the same way (14 TIEs and 2 Interceptors are also 134), does the opponent remove the Counter interceptors early and just stomach the fire, or does it ignore them and go after cheap TIEs first, leaving the more dangerous four-anti-squadron dice interceptors free range?

Definitely room to explore here. I've run 10 TIE, 14 TIE, and 12-squadron TA/Intel/TIE/Interceptor mixes so far, and the 14 TIE swarm was definitely the most effective. The 10/6 TIE/Bomber swarm is next.

Would you think there is a point running a TIE Swarm of about 8 (2 x 4 for activations when needed), or is it too low ?

With the Ruthless Strategist upgrade, is this affected by defense tokens like scatter?

8 is definitely too few. You'd be better with 8 other squads.

With the Ruthless Strategist upgrade, is this affected by defense tokens like scatter?

No.

Ruthless Strategists is not an Attack.

Defense Tokens can only be used against Attacks.

Same as the Scatter cannot be used against Mauler Mithel's Ability when he moves into engagement.

Corollary with Gallant Haven - Gallant Haven reduces by 1 point the damage done by attacks, which includes regular attacks and Counter Attacks, but does not stop the damage from Mauler or Boba Fett, or Ruthless Strategists.

Which would you folks consider more effective at overall fighter superiority - a TIE swarm with a few support squadrons (Howlrunner, Dengar, etc.) or a group of 4/5 Interceptors with Howlrunner and Dengar?

After having Ruthless Strategist explained to me...I'm going to throw my vote in for a AFm2 kitted with Ruthless Strategist with Rieeken's aces to deal with mass fighters.

Would you think there is a point running a TIE Swarm of about 8 (2 x 4 for activations when needed), or is it too low ?

8 is definitely too few. You'd be better with 8 other squads.

I think it would depend on what you want the TIEs to do. If the goal is to overwhelm enemy fighter screens, I think you'll have a hard time doing that against anything but a token (2-3 squadron) fighter force. In a vacuum, 8 TIEs don't contribute much. Against small-mid-sized enemy squadron lists, or mid-to-large enemy squadrons without Intel, it's a credible fighter screen that will lock the opponent down for at least a round, maybe two if your opponent rolls badly. Against large enemy squadron groups with Intel, I worry about the lack of units to pin down enemy squadrons, combined with their staying power. The advantage to a large swarm is that you can gang up on enemy squadrons--sometimes 2 v. 1 if you go with a full 16--and the sheer volume means that no matter how well your opponent's squadrons roll, you can't lose in a single engagement because you have more targets than the enemy has attacks. More models also means more ability to get your units where you need them, and of course each fighter becomes less expendable the fewer you have in total.

That said, eight TIEs are the cheapest four-deployments in the game, the cheapest 8 blue non-Bomber anti-ship dice in the game (how much value you put on that is up to you, of course ), and can do respectable damage to far more valuable squadrons if you deploy them carefully, take advantage of initiative, support them with ship fire, and only commit them to combat with a definite purpose in mind. At 64 points, that's the cheapest 24 anti-squadron dice you'll fight in the game (unless you factor in A-wing counters, though those aren't a guarantee anymore against squadrons with Intel). If your opponent brings only a token fighter force (four YT-2400s seem to be in vogue right now), you'll still have a numeric advantage, and if you have initiative (or the opponent doesn't devote squadron commands to them and relies on Rogue), you can still do a lot of damage (taking advantage of Swarm), while still presenting more targets than the enemy can attack. Singling-out a target is probably a better engagement strategy than spreading wide (like you could with 12-16 squadrons). Even a YT-2400 with Jan will be hard-pressed to withstand concentrated attacks from four TIEs in a row with rerollable dice, and if you eliminate a single enemy during an activation, your numeric advantage only swells.

If you don't have numeric superiority, going offensive is more tricky, but 8 TIEs can still contribute, especially if the battle takes place in range of your ships' anti-squadron batteries. Against rebels, if an opponent has 8 squadrons, they're looking at least an 80 point investment (in a battle between 8 Y-wings and 8 TIEs, the cheaper TIEs have a good chance if they have initiative, thanks to Swarm), and probably closer to 100+ in most games, with Jan/X-wings in the mix. Even at the 134 point cap, Rebels can easily end up at 8 squadrons or fewer if heroes/B-wings/Scurrg's/YT-2400s are involved, so doubling-up on them will happen a lot if you run 16 TIEs. With 8 TIEs against 8 Rebels, you probably won't win that fight straight-up (TIE vs. Y-wing dogfight excepted, maybe), but you can usually extract at least that same number of points in other squadrons, in concert with ship fire (5 X-wings worth of kills is the net-win threshold). To give just one example, 8 TIEs fit in a list with an ISD II with GT and ECMs, a GSD II with OE and Demolisher, and two Raider Is with OE, with 30 points to spare (leaving Ozzel, Motti, and Screed in play for commander). Properly positioned with overlapping firing arcs, your ships can pour as many as 8 anti-squadron dice per round in support of your TIEs (with rerolls for the Raiders), if you keep the fight at close-range of your ships (which is quite a bit longer than a non-Rhymer fighter's firing range). Combined with up to 24 anti-squadron dice from your TIEs (plus up to 8 Swarm rerolls), no fighter force in the game can weather that level of sustained fire for more than a round. Enemy fire directed at your TIEs keeps them from attacking your ships, and if they ignore 8 TIEs, the enemy will be eating 20+ more anti-squadron dice in a subsequent round(s).

That said, if you have a few more points and want your squads to deal more anti-squadron damage or have greater staying power, taking 6 Interceptors or TIE Advanced is probably the better play, for a nominal increase in cost (64 vs. 66 vs. 72). Six interceptors are faster and more dangerous against squadrons (add their rerollable anti-squadron and Counter attacks to 6-8 anti-squadron dice from ships, and you're burning things down quick), while TAs roll better against ships and can take more punishment. Or you could split the baby, at 69 points, and take three of each. You're giving up a deployment and reducing your chances at numeric superiority, but there's definite advantages. If I had to take just any 8 squadrons, I'd take TAs myself--more resilient, decent anti-squadron damage, good speed, blacks v. ships--what passes for a cheap all-around imperial fighter. But at 96 points, that's a fair investment. And coincidentally costs the same as 12 TIEs... so there's that.

To bring it all full circle, I see taking 8 generic TIEs as a cheap, flexible filler if your list is ship-heavy (80% ships and upgrades). Having lots of ships (and the flexibility that brings) helps to make-up for the lack of squadrons compared to a huge swarm list, and having four "stall" deployments so your big guns can be pointed in just the right direction never hurts, either. Conversely, taking tons of cheap, expendable, fast squadrons can help to compensate for some of the rigidity that can come with flying lists with fewer ships. And it's more fluffy.

here is an example how effective they can be: 5 ties with Howl runner and 4 Tie bombers. killed 2 A wings 1 X wing half killed another and did 3 points of damage to a CR90 on turn 2 and only took 2 points of damage back. The Cr90 dies when my VSDs opened up with the side and rear guns. Just enough to kill it. next turn they all but 2 tie fighters attacked an AFII and dropped its shields to 0 on the side facing one of the 2 VSD and it only had 1 hull at the end of the turn. A bomber killed it and the first die roll of the next turn.

this is about par for the coarse when I time 6 activate commands right and hit fair dice rolls. so to sum up Tie swarms can be very effective when the are used with your ships. they hit first and your big boys clean up.

Anyone used an x wing swarm? Bit like the TIEs I have a lot of them and you could field 10 in a 400 point list.

Yes. VERY VERY Hit/Miss.

Literally.

Lots of Hits with Anti-Squadron.

Lots of ACCs and BLANKS with Red-Die Bombing....

So you have to have confidence in your dice - or rather, not be relying on them to shine - as they feel a little less reliable, if a **** sight more reliable.

I have used 8 X-wings in a list before.

They murdered all enemy squadrons (I used flight controllers) and then continued plinking away at the ships using their red bomber dice.... slowly.

Red bomber dice are okay, but nothing special.

X-wing bomber dice frustrate me to no end. Even when I roll above average, all those blanks are just so, so frustrating. I've had games where I literally just didn't use them against ships when I could have, just because I can't stand them. :/ I'm not a huge fan of unmodified red dice anyway for this reason, but X-wings specifically--when you've gone to all the trouble to get a bomber into position, just so you can roll that one die, and then it comes up blank... Ffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu...

Man, Cubanboy's Happy Friday post had me in a good mood, but now all I can think about is blank X-wing reds, haha.

Man, Cubanboy's Happy Friday post had me in a good mood, but now all I can think about is blank X-wing reds, haha.

Me last Week: ... "Anything But a Blank... Anything but a Blank...." ::roll Die::.... "... Effin' Accuracy..."

If you want a rebel swarm, Jan, five X's, and five Y's is exactly 134. A bit more terrifying than 10 X's, I feel.

Just throwing that out there...

Neb-B Escort Frigate:

Keeping TIE swarms useless since the core set.

Neb-B Escort Frigate:

Keeping TIE swarms useless since the core set.

First time I played against an ISD as a Rebel, these 2 blue AA dice made me rethink the strategy of bunching up the Rebel Fighters activated with a Gallant Haven with Expanded Hangars. So I can only feel for the TIE swarms caught in the Neb Escort's AA.

Neb-B Escort Frigate:

Keeping TIE swarms useless since the core set.

First time I played against an ISD as a Rebel, these 2 blue AA dice made me rethink the strategy of bunching up the Rebel Fighters activated with a Gallant Haven with Expanded Hangars. So I can only feel for the TIE swarms caught in the Neb Escort's AA.

And any of your fighters even the wimpy A-wing are tougher than the TIE.

I think I'm going to invest more feelt points into AFMK2 As