And 2 corellian corvettes equal the strength of a star destroyer? 2 Mon cal cruisers are more powerful than the Executor?

Or are you going to tell me that each Capital Ship token represents multiples of those now.

Face it, they dumbed it down to appeal to the more casual market.

Um, yes, they do represent multiple ships,there's no other way a game like this can work. The Empire had at least 30 Imperial Star Destroyers at Endor alone; I doubt there are 30 ISD pieces in the box. So clearly every capital ship is a squadron, and the piece probably only represents the largest/most important ships, not the only type of ship present. It's not dumbing down, it's abstraction. And there's no way to do a grand-strategic simulation of Star Wars without it.

-Will

Funny how you dont mention what the rebels had at the battle of endor, which by your logic in this game would be nothing but a mon cal token, 1 or 2 correlian corvettes, a few medium transports, and a few fighter squadrons.

I suppose that by the same token, the AT-ST is vulnerable against squads of enemy infantry...but again, are we to assume that Rebel troopers can take on AT-STs when stormtroopers can't damage the Rebel equivalent?

Perhaps tactics cards are responsible for smoothing out this inconsistency with the canon.

I'd assume its rocket launchers or something that the rebels would use. That and the AT-STs did have a weakness below the command cabin.

Because of the scale, even adjusting the numbers by 1, it is a big deal.

I think tie fighters and xwings being the same is fine. It is probably for gameplay balance. And if you think of it as 2 squads of tie fighters vs 1 squad of xwings it works out thematically.

Ywings probably have a red die and 1 health. And i really cant see the mon cals being different than the star destroyers, because 2 dice doesnt make gameplay sense and less health doesnt make thematic sense.

Then scale up the numbers so that 1 more hit makes less of a difference but still a noticable one.

And 2 corellian corvettes equal the strength of a star destroyer? 2 Mon cal cruisers are more powerful than the Executor?

Or are you going to tell me that each Capital Ship token represents multiples of those now.

Face it, they dumbed it down to appeal to the more casual market.

Um, yes, they do represent multiple ships,there's no other way a game like this can work. The Empire had at least 30 Imperial Star Destroyers at Endor alone; I doubt there are 30 ISD pieces in the box. So clearly every capital ship is a squadron, and the piece probably only represents the largest/most important ships, not the only type of ship present. It's not dumbing down, it's abstraction. And there's no way to do a grand-strategic simulation of Star Wars without it.

-Will

Funny how you dont mention what the rebels had at the battle of endor, which by your logic in this game would be nothing but a mon cal token, 1 or 2 correlian corvettes, a few medium transports, and a few fighter squadrons.

Did the Rebel fleet destroy the entire Imperial fleet? I don't think they did; am I misremembering it? If not, why doesn't this conversion work?

Because of the scale, even adjusting the numbers by 1, it is a big deal.

I think tie fighters and xwings being the same is fine. It is probably for gameplay balance. And if you think of it as 2 squads of tie fighters vs 1 squad of xwings it works out thematically.

Ywings probably have a red die and 1 health. And i really cant see the mon cals being different than the star destroyers, because 2 dice doesnt make gameplay sense and less health doesnt make thematic sense.

Then scale up the numbers so that 1 more hit makes less of a difference but still a noticable one.

Funny how you dont mention what the rebels had at the battle of endor, which by your logic in this game would be nothing but a mon cal token, 1 or 2 correlian corvettes, a few medium transports, and a few fighter squadrons.

Yes, that would be correct. Or maybe it's 2 Mon Cals, 2-4 corvettes, a few transports and 4-6 fighter peices; I don't pretend to know the exact conversion ratio. But it *won't* be the 12+ Mon Cal Cruisers, 12+ Corvettes, 12+ Transports, and 400+ fighters vs. a SSD, 30+ ISDs and 1000+ Tie Fighters that were actually present at the battle. There's no way a game of this scale can work like that. Sorry, that's the required level of abstraction for a grand strategic game; each piece represents a formation of some kind, whether it's an infantry division, a fighter wing or a capital ship battle squadron. To expect anything else is, to be blunt, fairly insane.

-Will

Combat is simple but pretty elegant. I really like the 2 types of hit symbols on the dice. And the tactics cards add a cool layer.

My only concern is that late game fleets could have some pretty large dice pools and of all the things FFG is known for - being generous with dice is not one of them.

I'm guessing they'll include the game on the app, and they'll likely give us the option to buy some more dice also (because why not right?).

I have already contacted FFG about this and was told ALL Star Wars games that require dice will be added to the app soon after release. It's a one time purchase for all the Star Wars games FFG makes!

Also, FFG made a conversion chart for the RPG dice so you could use standard 6 and 8 sided dice if you wanted to.

The product page says the game comes with 10 custom dice so I imagine it will come with 5 black and 5 red dice.

Oh lord, I hadn't seen that yet....I sure hope they sell an extra set of dice then.

I like using dice (over the app or modified dice, etc), and 5 isn't going to do it. The battle for the Rebel base in their own example would require a minimum of 8 each and it wouldn't take much to get past that.

Ugh.

At my table, barring an extra set of dice (or even allowing for this being a thing), the rule will be if you can't do it with 10 dice, you can't do it at all. I still recall the nightmare that was the one Death Star card in the Wizards TCG that had 20 power, which was 20 dice dropping onto the board. When it gets to be a logistical concern, it's better to just set an upper limit on the dice that can be rolled at one time.

Funny how you dont mention what the rebels had at the battle of endor, which by your logic in this game would be nothing but a mon cal token, 1 or 2 correlian corvettes, a few medium transports, and a few fighter squadrons.

Yes, that would be correct. Or maybe it's 2 Mon Cals, 2-4 corvettes, a few transports and 4-6 fighter peices; I don't pretend to know the exact conversion ratio. But it *won't* be the 12+ Mon Cal Cruisers, 12+ Corvettes, 12+ Transports, and 400+ fighters vs. a SSD, 30+ ISDs and 1000+ Tie Fighters that were actually present at the battle. There's no way a game of this scale can work like that. Sorry, that's the required level of abstraction for a grand strategic game; each piece represents a formation of some kind, whether it's an infantry division, a fighter wing or a capital ship battle squadron. To expect anything else is, to be blunt, fairly insane.

-Will

Did we watch the same movie? The rebel fleet that attacked the death star was a handful of capital ships at most, not counting corellian corvettes and medium transports... the former being weak and the later being useless in a space battle.

Because of the scale, even adjusting the numbers by 1, it is a big deal.

I think tie fighters and xwings being the same is fine. It is probably for gameplay balance. And if you think of it as 2 squads of tie fighters vs 1 squad of xwings it works out thematically.

Ywings probably have a red die and 1 health. And i really cant see the mon cals being different than the star destroyers, because 2 dice doesnt make gameplay sense and less health doesnt make thematic sense.

Then scale up the numbers so that 1 more hit makes less of a difference but still a noticable one.

In the example in the article (where the emperor is attacking the rebel base), the imperial player is throwing 15 dice in the space battle (assuming he moves everything in) and the rebels 10. Im not sure id physically want to be throwing more than that.

I meant scale up only the HP values.

And 2 corellian corvettes equal the strength of a star destroyer? 2 Mon cal cruisers are more powerful than the Executor?

Or are you going to tell me that each Capital Ship token represents multiples of those now.

Face it, they dumbed it down to appeal to the more casual market.

You call it dumbing down, I call it making it playable.

You're looking for a simulation in a strategic level game. That's unreasonable.

If you want that level of representation for individual ships, then you need to play Armada.

This is a galaxy wide strategic level game where the combat is on the level with things like axis and allies, or risk. The pieces are a representation of power levels, not one to one measurements of actual military forces.

Each of the games has different strengths, and represents different aspects of the Star Wars mythos, because outside of a roleplaying game (which does exist, of course), the setting is too vast and multifaceted for a single game to handle it without becoming overly convoluted. This just happens to be the first true macrocosmic, or all-encompassing, game FFG has put out under the Star Wars license. Everything up until now has been microcosmic, showing us a specific facet of the mythos.

X-Wing Miniatures Game - Microcosmic; depicts space dogfights

Armada - Microcosmic; depicts fleet battles; larger scale than X-Wing

Imperial Assault - Microcosmic; depicts infantry and small-arms conflict
Star Wars: The Card Game - Cinematic (neither macrocosmic or microcosmic: puts the focus on specific characters and ships rather than the larger picture)

Rebellion - Macrocosmic; galaxywide conflict led by select heroes and villains. Massive abstraction necessary

And 2 corellian corvettes equal the strength of a star destroyer? 2 Mon cal cruisers are more powerful than the Executor?

Or are you going to tell me that each Capital Ship token represents multiples of those now.

Face it, they dumbed it down to appeal to the more casual market.

You call it dumbing down, I call it making it playable.

You're looking for a simulation in a strategic level game. That's unreasonable.

If you want that level of representation for individual ships, then you need to play Armada.

This is a galaxy wide strategic level game where the combat is on the level with things like axis and allies, or risk. The pieces are a representation of power levels, not one to one measurements of actual military forces.

You can call it whatever you want, doesn't change the fact of what they've done. And I don't see how I'm being unreasonable. Sorry, I guess I just have higher standards and care too much about Star Wars to see it's lore butchered like this.

Did we watch the same movie? The rebel fleet that attacked the death star was a handful of capital ships at most, not counting corellian corvettes and medium transports... the former being weak and the later being useless in a space battle.

Apparently not. Watch the scene were the fleet is moving away from the exploding Death Star. There's at least 6 Mon Cal cruisers there, not counting the two that are destroyed by the Death Star. So there's a minimum of 8. Similar numbers for the other ships. The 12+ figures come up in the novelizations and other sources.

-Will

You can call it whatever you want, doesn't change the fact of what they've done. And I don't see how I'm being unreasonable. Sorry, I guess I just have higher standards and care too much about Star Wars to see it's lore butchered like this.

No, you are being unreasonable. The 'lore' is not being butchered in any way. There is no canon reference for how a wing (or whatever) of X-wings would perform against two wings (or whatever) of TIE fighters. Your standards aren't high, they are just arbitrary.

-Will

You can call it whatever you want, doesn't change the fact of what they've done. And I don't see how I'm being unreasonable. Sorry, I guess I just have higher standards and care too much about Star Wars to see it's lore butchered like this.

No, you are being unreasonable. The 'lore' is not being butchered in any way. There is no canon reference for how a wing (or whatever) of X-wings would perform against two wings (or whatever) of TIE fighters. Your standards aren't high, they are just arbitrary.

-Will

No canon reference? We see in the movies how these units perform!

Whatever, I can't continue these discussions or else I get banned because people like you can't accept the truth and report me for 'hurting feelings'.

Believe whatever you want, its wrong though.

Let me put this way. You are playing a game covering the entirety of World War II. Your basic pieces represent Corps. Would you get ticked off because the game doesn't represent the difference between Shermans and Panzer IV's?

-Will

No canon reference? We see in the movies how these units perform!

Whatever, I can't continue these discussions or else I get banned because people like you can't accept the truth and report me for 'hurting feelings'.

Believe whatever you want, its wrong though.

Dude, please take a pill and chill. The only hurt feelings are on your end.

As for seeing in the movies how these units perform, we actually see VERY little evidence that the X-wing is particularly amazing against the Tie Fighter. Red Squadron is badly shot up at Yavin by a handful of TIEs, and in the battle of Endor in the scenes where the two are engaging each other you see the exchange rate is roughly 1-to-1. The X-wing is not some super-fighter versus the TIE; it's not even portrayed this way in the X-wing tabletop game. It is entirely *reasonable* for whatever large number of fighters each piece actually represents that they perform the same, or at least similar enough to merit having the same stats.

Again, different sorts of games require different sorts of abstraction. There's no way around this.

-Will

Hmm, Mon Mothma adds no tactics cards. Guess she really is a coward.

Hmm, Mon Mothma adds no tactics cards. Guess she really is a coward.

You may see it that way. I like to think of her not having any good battle talent, but good diplomacy skills.

I doubt any other rebel character will do as well in diplomacy. Just my two cents. If you want I can give a refund on that.

Hmm, Mon Mothma adds no tactics cards. Guess she really is a coward.

How does not being a good tactician add up to beeing a coward?

And 2 corellian corvettes equal the strength of a star destroyer? 2 Mon cal cruisers are more powerful than the Executor?

Or are you going to tell me that each Capital Ship token represents multiples of those now.

Face it, they dumbed it down to appeal to the more casual market.

You call it dumbing down, I call it making it playable.

You're looking for a simulation in a strategic level game. That's unreasonable.

If you want that level of representation for individual ships, then you need to play Armada.

This is a galaxy wide strategic level game where the combat is on the level with things like axis and allies, or risk. The pieces are a representation of power levels, not one to one measurements of actual military forces.

You can call it whatever you want, doesn't change the fact of what they've done. And I don't see how I'm being unreasonable. Sorry, I guess I just have higher standards and care too much about Star Wars to see it's lore butchered like this.

There is no butchering. It's a representation of forces. The old canon stated the battle of Endor had something like 35 capital ships for the Empire. Expecting to actually field a fleet of 35 miniature star destroyers in a game like this is borderline insane. The dice requirement would be outrageous.

Do you require the different types of star destroyers too? Shall we include the various tie fighters? Lets make sure there are noticeable differences for each fighter type. Now look at X-wing, to do that we need a much finer detail in the cost of the units, their attack strength, defense strength, shield strength, hit points. Now each planet needs to produce X amount of resources that need to get transported and processed and used to produce good in factories that we need to have logistical costs for. When we get to that scale though, that single star destroyer is going to be rolling like 40 red dice alone, and another 20 black dice. You're going to need the $100 dice expansion just to field a Victory SD. Gotta have real life shield mechanics with regenerating shields so that a couple X-wings can't take out a Star Destroyer due to shield alone.

And lets not forget more realistic movement rules. Different ships had different hyperspace speeds, so some ships may need extra turns to make the same movement due to these differences.

If you want an exact simulation for combat, play one of the games that tries to simulate combat. Keep in mind though that even those games have arbitrary measurements that may not always fit your very narrow acceptance of what is and isn't allowed.

This is a large scale game that simply can't be modeled to the level of detail you want and still be a fun experience that can be wrapped up in a couple hours.

X-Wings have four cannons, but in the miniatures game, they only roll three dice to attack. Is that game butchered as well?

You can't represent everything in the canon accurately and still have a playable game. You have to smooth things out and streamline other things and adjust still others so that there's balance and playability and FUN. And moving an exactingly accurate number of ships around the board because a West End Games sourcebook said twenty years ago that's how many of them there were isn't my idea of fun.

Please gentlemen, fly casual.

If you are truly upset...

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/199778-gripes-complaints-inconsistencies-ect/

You can call it whatever you want, doesn't change the fact of what they've done. And I don't see how I'm being unreasonable. Sorry, I guess I just have higher standards and care too much about Star Wars to see it's lore butchered like this.

No, you are being unreasonable. The 'lore' is not being butchered in any way. There is no canon reference for how a wing (or whatever) of X-wings would perform against two wings (or whatever) of TIE fighters. Your standards aren't high, they are just arbitrary.

-Will

No canon reference? We see in the movies how these units perform!

Whatever, I can't continue these discussions or else I get banned because people like you can't accept the truth and report me for 'hurting feelings'.

Believe whatever you want, its wrong though.

So we meet again...

You dont have effectively any canon reference in Return of the Jedi (since its the only movie anyone can talk about this) in how those units perform (except for x-wings against TIE Fighters). As soon as the Rebel fleet shows up at Endor the only thing they do is getting in close to the Imperial ships when they find out (the hard way) that the Death Star superlaser is operational. All we have is a few seconds of fire exchange and nothing else. That hardly makes a canon reference... a very tiny glimpse... maybe but nothing else.

Have you played Axis & Allies? (the more I know about Rebellion the more I think it was inspired by that game)

Even the most complex strategic game that I know about the 2nd World War Totaler Krieg took a couple of liberties to be playable.

Either you dont like strategic games (they need to be abstract and take a few liberties to work well enough so that those who make them can sell it) or accept them and let it go the "realism" you want. You can always make your own game with your own rules...