Forgive ignorance if this sounds idiotic. But could the ability to Open and Close S-Foils on an X-wing be similar to the Cloak/Decloak TIE-Phantom mechanic except only using the 1 template. i.e. S-Foils closed gain more agility dice when defending but lose the ability to attack. Open S-Foils barrel roll or boost at the same time as the nerfed TIE-Phantom

I'd like something that references the scene in TFA that also gives a slight offensive boost. Maybe even go as far as to say "Close S-Foils: Receive a weapons disabled token. You may ignore obstacles when moving and performing actions this turn (and the next turn?)" Activating on dial reveal.

I think that if the dual upgrade works like we think it does, where you flip it, it would be perfect for S-Foils which I really would like to see in the game. There's some good ideas here and I think whatever FFG does with it, would be a good addition.

Are there any canon examples of an X-Wing or B-Wing firing with it's S-Foils closed?

Well speaking from pure canon, the only time we see S-Foils open or close is before the battle of Yavin where they're locked into attack position and TFA when Poe uses them.

So there's nothing in the canon that says they can't attack when closed, only that we never see them do so. The idea that they can't is logical based on the 'attack position' comment, but we simply don't know if weapons are disabled when closed or not.

I think that if the dual upgrade works like we think it does, where you flip it, it would be perfect for S-Foils which I really would like to see in the game. There's some good ideas here and I think whatever FFG does with it, would be a good addition.

Are there any canon examples of an X-Wing or B-Wing firing with it's S-Foils closed?

Well speaking from pure canon, the only time we see S-Foils open or close is before the battle of Yavin where they're locked into attack position and TFA when Poe uses them.

What...?

Watch RotJ again. You clearly see the X-Wings and B-Wings "lock S-foils in attack position" just before the assault on the second Death Star.

When they're part of the fleet rendezvous at Sullust, the X-Wings and B-Wings are seen in 'cruising mode.'

Watch RotJ again.

That's never a bad idea but it still doesn't change that we don't know if they can attack or not when the s-foils are closed.

Then why would squadron leaders always announce "lock S-foils in attack position?"

And why would we see those very same S-foils lock into position in three four films before an attack run?

Edit: We see the ARC-170s lock their S-foils into attack position in RotS even though their S-foils contain no weapon components of any kind. (Cool ship designs, but always found that odd...)

It allows your lasers to shoot in a wide X or t (b-wings) like pattern, making them come from multiple angles which are harder to dodge then the two pinpoints of laser fire. With them closed you also probably only can fire two of the 4. B-wings in all honestly probably could still use their cannons and cockpit guns with S-foils closed.

We don't know how dual Upgrades work yet though. So until we know it might actually not make sense mechanically.

It doesn't.

The Rules Reference calls for flipping cards over when discarding.

Same with Adaptability, if something makes you discard your EPT, will it then cost you a net effect of 2 PS instead of 1?

To the FAQ machine!

I honestly think It will have to be equipped to two ships in your squad, with the opposite side always showing. So if you flip 1 to up PS, the other must lose a PS and vis-versa. Making it less fitting for S-foils.

It allows your lasers to shoot in a wide X or t (b-wings) like pattern, making them come from multiple angles which are harder to dodge then the two pinpoints of laser fire. With them closed you also probably only can fire two of the 4. B-wings in all honestly probably could still use their cannons and cockpit guns with S-foils closed.

Again, the S-foils on the ARC-170 contain no weapon components. Yet they open them up before attack runs.

Plus, the X-Wing/TIE Fighter/X-Wing Alliance PC games and the Rogue Squadron console games require the X-Wings and B-Wings to lock S-foils in order to fire.

Not sure why this is even an argument. Isn't it fairly well known that S-foils have to be in "attack position" in order for ships to fire weapons?

I assume keeping them closed allows for additional speed, maneuverability, and energy conservation... *shrug*

The issue is, this can't- literally can not just be, an X-Wing only card.

Because of The B-Wing and T-70.

X-Wing only would cover both the X-Wing and T-70 Xwing.

So X-Wing and B-Wing only would basically be enough.

Clunky though, I'll admit that.

Not sure why this is even an argument. Isn't it fairly well known that S-foils have to be in "attack position" in order for ships to fire weapons?

It is fairly well known, yes. From a certain point of view.

In Legends, it is established. In canon? Who knows?

Isn't it fairly well-known that S-foils have to be in "attack position" in order for ships to fire weapons?

That's true of the EU/Legends and old canon that doesn't mean it's actually true. Even then can anyone say there's never been a case where a X-Wing fired with it's s-foils closed?

I think the real point is... We can't say for sure if a ship can fire with it's s-foils closed or not, the Wookiepedia page under the Legends section mentioned some could, but even those didn't because the accuracy was worse.

Just because they did it one way in video games isn't proof, in fact even in the pre-Disney days, games were on the bottom end of canon.

So barring some canon source I think best to at least consider that any sort of upgrade for s-foils could allow attacking with them closed, but at reduced effectiveness in some way.

Not sure if it was mentioned already, but closed foils should give your upgrade bar Slam. I Have no idea how these new dual cards work, so it may just be a silly idea.

Not sure if it was mentioned already, but closed foils should give your upgrade bar Slam. I Have no idea how these new dual cards work, so it may just be a silly idea.

That's a cool idea. So by shifting Sfoils closed, an Xwing can perform a 9K, (4straight+4K) getting out of dodge and pointing back into the fight. Might be a little TOO fast, though.

Also Advanced Slam isnt Kwing only- a T70 can hard 2, hard 2, and boost in a single round, if it gives up autothrusters.

Edit: Also, BB8 PTL Ello Asty can be ANYWHERE.

Green 3 foreward, BB8, PTL, boost, move, white talon roll.

Not sure if it was mentioned already, but closed foils should give your upgrade bar Slam.

I think something like that could be a cool idea. Closing the s-foils gives you the equivalent of a SLAM action.

None of us really know how these dual upgrades work so we're all kinda guessing.

That's true of the EU/Legends and old canon that doesn't mean it's actually true.

Granted, but in the absence of new canon specifically saying it's NOT true, one should still defer to the EU. Otherwise, half the ships in this game wouldn't even be in the game.

one should still defer to the EU.

True, but that doesn't mean you close your mind to the possibilities. Again gameplay and balance trumps lore. I'd be fine with weapons being disabled when closed, but then you need a pretty big boost to make up for that limitation.

Again gameplay and balance trumps lore. I'd be fine with weapons being disabled when closed, but then you need a pretty big boost to make up for that limitation.

Treating all your whites as green seems like a pretty big boost. Especially when combined with some of the astromechs out there.

Maybe treat your reds as white as well.

Assuming the Dual Upgrades are "pick at start of round/dials/etc" I like the idea of S-Foils being added.

I think that it is safe to assume that the ships that already have S-Foils stock have already been factored into the ships themselves, I think it makes more sense to call them "Improved S-Foil[s/ Actuators]" and have it be a Modification. Having them as a MOD makes sense since it keeps you from using it with Integrated/Autothrusters which simultaneously keeps Poe from being a (bigger) beast and makes you have to make a decision on other pilots, like Biggs. It also means that you cannot take the E2 on B-Wings which also helps.

I think if you assume that the card would have to be available to T-65s, T-70s and B-Wings I think the following makes the most sense:

Closed: After revealing your maneuver dial, assign this ship a Weapons Disabled token. You may immediately perform a free boost action.

Open: When attacking with your primary weapon, you may change one [Eye] Result to a [Hit] Result.

I think the boost idea for Closed makes the most sense and is simple. You get an initial burst of speed before your maneuver (assuming you aren't stressed) and can change the vector of your following maneuver. I think having the timing before the maneuver also adds an interesting interaction with BB-8 and Advanced Sensors, which is a good thing. It seems powerful, especially on ships like Wedge, but not disproportionately so for the loss of an attack. It also does not improve Poe too much since it doesn't play into his ability by giving him more AGI dice.

I think the Open effect has to be something that is strong, but only subtly so, and needs to not compliment Poe and Blue Squadron Bs too much. I think it is fluffy that the Spread nature of the S-Foils would help reduce the pilot's need to focus on lining up shots, so changing a focus result makes sense. It also has the added benefit of overlapping with Poe's ability. Sure, if you roll multiple [Eye] results it helps him, but in general doesn't really do much for his ability. It also doesn't help the low PS Bs too much as well, since they typically like to focus due to range/target flexibility. They still get a decent benefit when they Barrel Roll, which I don't think is too unfair.

I think a cost of 1 point makes sense. I would say free, but the Bs would take it as an auto-include and I think giving it a minor cost makes it compare with Integrated/Thrusters in an interesting way.

I do NOT like the idea of giving SLAM or Greens to the ship. I dislike SLAM because it takes away some of the uniqueness and makes the ships WAY too fast. SLAM has to be carefully placed on dials that don't benefit too much, and all 3 S-Foil ships get WAY too much from the double move. I dislike adding more greens because of R2-D2 and BB-8 as well as the lowly R2 Astro. It makes the named droids too powerful in my opinion and makes the R2 basically useless.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

EDIT: Changed to Primary weapon, realized Bs could use Cannons and Xs Torps to get an un-fluffy effect from the Open side.

S-FOILS (0 points)

B-Wing and X-Wing Only. Modification.

We don't know how dual Upgrades work yet though.

Looks simple enough to me. Dual cards have two sides. You choose one side during squadbuilding, and that side conveniently indicates to you and your opponent which choice you made, so you don't have to use tokens or verbally remind your opponent.

If there's any more to it, FFG hasn't told us.

Looks simple enough to me. Dual cards have two sides. You choose one side during squadbuilding, and that side conveniently indicates to you and your opponent which choice you made, so you don't have to use tokens or verbally remind your opponent.

If there's any more to it, FFG hasn't told us.

There's a rules card, a full one to it. I feel like there will be a mechanic to when you flip it and due to much of the wording of the article it makes me think that you must equip it on two ships and then they interact with eachother. It speaks of it in a very team like manner.

The problem is, you can't just give this to the B-Wing as well as the X-Wing.

Because if they go by the same rules, it keeps the B-Wing better than the X-Wing.

The problem is, you can't just give this to the B-Wing as well as the X-Wing.

One thing would be to make it something that helps the X-Wing more than the B-Wing, not sure how easy that would be to do.

But yeah the B-Wing really doesn't need anything that makes it better.