Hi guys,

I have been playing regular sessions of Dark Heresy with a psyker character for one and half year and thanks to risk management succeded in keeping him alive.

He has around 8.5k experience point, specialized in divination and with one telekinetic power. He is a bit of a swiss knife in the sense that he can do pretty much anything, from inquiry to tech use and knowledge, and beat the crap out of any ennemy using two hercuters/carnodons with precognitive strike.

Lastly, i wanted to change his game by gradually shifting towards a sword and gun style. The issue is that i have a really poor WS (25) and that WS costs a loooot of experience points.

Note that i have too much insanity and corruption points (around 30 points of each) to follow the templar callix path, so i will try to opt out for a polyvalent fighter who can handle both melee and range attacks.

Note that i have a lot of good reasons for doing that:

- Force Swords are awesome :-)

- There are a lot of actions available in melee that i want to explore: charging, feinting, knocking on the ground, let alone the ones combined with psychic powers, such as distort vision and sneaking behind enemies

- Due to a combination of good dice rolls and the mutation "brute" (+10St +10Th -10Ag) i have a str of 52 and Thoughness of 50. I picked a +5 upgrade for both to enhance the effects :-) and grow bigger and bigger. The mutation made most armors unfit for my character and after spending a lot of time, thrones, and dedication, i acquired a suit of light power armor that actually could fit my warped size.

I figured out that letting the guardsman take all the blows was a bit unoptimizing since i have a really high damage soak. I can't wait to pick telekinetic shield :-)

- Precognitive strike makes things easier to hit. Way easier

I currently have 1000 xp points to spend and i might try to earn more xp to buy two weapon skill advances for a total of 1250 xp points and pick a the key melee talents: swift attack, blademaster, crushing blow, two weapon wielder (melee) (already have ambidextrous and two weapons wielder for guns), and berserk charge. These are all from the savant skill tree.

I guess a psyker with 35 WS, precog strike, blademaster, and a forcesword isn't actually that bad? You can attack twice ar 55 WS (35+20), adding the +5 for the forcesword (always counted as good craftsamanship), with the possibility to reroll.

I also thought that i could use a bit of cuning to compensate my low base WS, for instance using distort vision to blur them, fear the crap out of them and take advantage from it, or knocking them on the ground with my high str value.

Note that this is all fancy things that aren't necessary. My character fights pretty well with his hercutters and generally ends up blowing everything that is within his range. But my team is lagging behind and stuck in melee while i am playing solo ninja walking on walls and firing from behind with my pistols.

So, the first question is: do you thing this idea is a giant dump of experience point, or is it Worth trying?

Second question is: what KIND of melee psyker can i build, since it seems that there are two options:

- A very offensive build relying on all out attacks and furious assault, or even Frenzy.

That could be an option since my character can soak up a lot of damage and catch projectiles in the air before reaching melee (thanks to mental rage, you can still cast powers while frenzied)

- A more cuning build relying on sword and gun style and swift attack.

Third question: is there a way to boost WS without buying the ultra expansive advances? I have searched for packages but i didn't find one that could fit men (my char is void born)

I would be glad to have your suggestions and answers!

It's a shame you can't take the Templar Calix advance as that's the most effective way to get a melee Psyker-- the reduction of Weapon Skill advances to 100 XP is a realy lifesaver.

At 25 WS, with 500 XP advances I find it relatively unlikely your character will ever become a godly melee fighter, even with a Force Sword, as you'll never achieve higher than 45 WS (and PROBABLY never higher than 40 WS due to how expensive your last characteristic advance is).

Also, since you can't take Templar Calix, you can't ever get Lightning Attack, which is a real boon for melee characters. That said. You can still probably make an EFFECTIVE Psyker.

Running number crunching: With a best quality bladed weapon, Swift Attack, Blademaster and about 40 WS, your Psyker should be able to land at least one hit per round most of the time. Now assuming your Psyker has at least 40 strength, Crushing Blow (which I believe is possible for non-Templar Calix Psykers to get), and a Force Sword with Psy Rating 5, you're looking at your Psyker dealing 1d10+12 damage per round with a penetration value of 7.

That's solid damage no matter how you look at it.

So! What you're going to want for your melee psyker build is:

-40 Weapon Skill at least, 45 if you have the XP for it.

-Blademaster

-Crushing Blow

-A Best Quality, end-game sword (if you can't get a best-quality Force Weapon, I'd suggest a best-quality Power Sword myself).

-Swift Attack

With all of that, even if you won't be outdueling a melee-focused Guardsman or a Templar Calix psyker, you will still be more than capable of taking down most opponents in a fight. And you'll probably be more effective against Daemons, since Force Weapons ignore a daemon's doubled toughness. I'd argue the Crushing Blow makes you objectively better than a melee focused assassin too.

------

As far as Psychic Powers are concerned, I'd have also suggested Biomancy-- Cellular Control would let you add an extra point of damage to your strength bonus.But if you're already Divination/Telekinesis, then that's fine. Going three disciplines is tricky for a non-ascension character.

In fact IF you're Telekinesis, why not consider skipping the whole "Melee build" and just grab Psychic Blade. Saves you having to dump all that XP into melee skills, and you'll still be a terror in close combat-- only now it's scaling off you're (I'm assuming) high Willpower, instead of your character's lackluster weapon Skill.

*As a side note, all of the above is written assuming you are going down the Savant branch of the Psyker tree, not the Scholar Branch. Scholars don't offer much for melee combat.

Well, you are out of the only way to easy build a melee, have you looked at get the power Pyschic Blade?

and no you will not be the master of melee, but you could use WP as your attack skill, now there is some debate if you can use Melee Talents with a Psychic Blade, but that really a question your GM will have to answer for the campaign.

If you do go for the Melee increase yes u will need min of 35, and and I would get not only a Force Sword, but at least a GQ Mono Bolo knife, if not BQ.

And I would go for the classic 40k, Pistol and blade fighter.

crushing blow, two weapon wielder (melee) will be important to you

swift attack, Blade master will be a nice

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for the quick replies!

Keep in mind that i also have a really high str imput, with 50 str + 10 from the light power armor, allowing me to punch people on the ground and making it easier to hit.

All in all, melee actions seems very fun compared to full autoing people all the time. With two hercutters, precog strike, and a BS of 45, i score an average 5-7 hits.

Melee trades several hits for one or two really strong blows.

A best quality force sword (dunno if i will ever touch given the price and rarity) + str + psy rating would make me deal 1d10 + 15 damage, which is in itself enough to take down a lot of enemies. For the strongest foes, just channel killing will to break them down with your sheer willpower (i have 53 WP).

I guess that gear can makeup for skill to a certain extent. A WS of 40 (there is no way to buy +5 WS for 2500 xp points...) can be compensated by best quality weapons giving a nice +10 bonus. A ws of 50 is then workable for a melee fighter, given that precognitive strike gives an aditional +20 to WS, and blademaster allows rerolling, theres a fair chance to hit two times. Also, precog strike is great because it boosts BS too which can be nice.

As for lightning attack, i will probably ask my gm for an elite advance. Given the xp i will spend on that build if i go for it i don't think he l refuse. I could also ask for a dual team elite advance to team up with the guardsman, thats would really enhance the strategic aspect of melee. As for the other acrobatic skills of Templar Calix, note that even if i would be authorized to go that path, i won't be able to pick all the acrobatic skills because my agility score has been gimped by the brute mutation.

I currently have 15 Corruption points and 19 Insanity points, as my gamemaster has allowed me to do a pilgrimage and spend a MASSIVE amound of thrones on a heaven planet vacation.

Maybe i should try to clean my soul and spend xp and thrones on reducing insanity and corruption to enter templar calix order, but note though that my mutation will still make it suspicious.

Also, it would mean withdrawing from black market and a lot of parallel activities in which my character is involved and that has allowed me to earn a decent income (psyker salaries are quite miserable). It would mean, from a roleplay perspective, changing also the personality of my character, who is borderline radical (although he isn't a sorcerer or anything like that, he is trading with hereteks and is attracted by the ideology of the logicians. He thinks that technoogy could enhance his own psychic abilities and harness the power of the warp...). I dream, one day, of being able to posess the infinitely precious Aetheric wave spars from Rogue trader, allowing you to boost psy rating but also to reduce consistantly the rolls on psychic phenomena.

Itn seems from a RP perspective that my character is a bit too "curious" to enter the narrow templar calix order.

Now, lets talk about psychic blade because i thought about it too :-)

It all depends on how to rule them honestly:

- As you pointed out, can we use combat talents with them

- If we chose to wield them, do we benefit from str bunuses? Because my char in light power armor has +6 to damage, adding +2 for crushing blow. Thats a +8 damage which is a lot! With 53 willpower you are looking for 1d10 + 18 pen 10 which is a lot of damage... and note that there are quite a few combat drugs that increase willpower, contrary to weapon skill.

I dunno, the psychic blade sounds like a cheesy alternative, and would encourage me to min/max willpower. Bue well, willpower is what a psyker is about basically. Another caveheat is that i would like to be able to sustain TK shield at the same time, and i don't like to roll to many psychic dices (the reason why i am still alive), which will be hard since sustaining two powers considerably inflict a huge penalty to psychic rolls.

Guys, i think i will go on the force sword path... After all, i have a considerable amount of extra experience points compared to my teamates (because psykers have an AMAZING skill chart allowing you to be useful -even if not a master- at almost anything, from investigation to combat).

I aim for a modest WS of 40 and it will be a new challenge for me to be able to be an effective fighter, but i have quite a few ideas. I like the concept of being just an above average fighter using dirty tricks, cuning, and gear to take advantage of opponents who can sometimes can be more potent at melee than i am. Think about Bronn in Game of Thrones and you get the picture :-)

I think about things like space slip, wall walk, distort vision, chameleon, fear...

From a RP perspective, my character has an over inflated ego and thinks he is the best in almost everything (even when the dice rolls proves contrary, he l make excuses or blame his teamates). He isn't the kind of guy who is fighting in an "honest" way, and wining by displaying genuine martial superiority. He entitled himself the "best duelist" of Scintillia, using divine shots to take down his rivals :-). He used the same trick to sell a lasgun 800 thrones demonstrating this lasgun could "hit a flying bird 100 meters away". The first thing my char does when a fight breaks out is to vanish using distort vision, close the range gap while using chameleon, and then full autoing people in their backs.

Also, guys, what about dual wielding a snare/web gun and a sword? Imagine being to throw a web on a target and then hammering it while it is entangled?

Yeah, i am kind of a gear-geek, thats something i love with this game!

If your GM will allow it, Telekine blades from Ascension might be useful for you.

Alternatively, bite the bullet and go into Sorcercy - there's a couple Sorceries that boost melee combat abilities.

DotDG; Minor Arcana - Death's Messenger - grants next attack Tearing (if already has Tearing, roll a third die and take the highest), overbleed extends to additional attacks. Rather nice little power - applies to both melee and ranged attacks.

RH; Major Arcana - Flail of Skulls - make a flail out of skulls, uses the same profile as a flail but with the Warp Weapon quality, and anybody hit by it takes Insanity Points 1d10+ 1 for every additional skull used after the second. Probably not that useful, ever.

RH; Major Arcana - Living Weapon - while you sustain it, +20 WS, +20 S, +10 T, +10 Ag, gain +3 bonus to all Initiative checks, Natural Weapons trait, and all melee attacks gain the Tearing Quality; while in this state reduce Fellowship by 10. It's good for ripping into people, but not so good when there're witnesses that you can't silence and keep silenced.

Also, there's the option of Daemonic Weaponry - if using the DotDG or RH rules for Daemon Weapons (they're basically the same) the Heart Seeker Ability gives the wielder +10 WS while using the weapon, so if you used a best quality weapon, you're looking at +20 WS total. Other Daemon Weapon abilities are useful as well, but not so much for hitting the first time, although Mind Leech forces a WP test or Stunned for 1d5 Rounds on those the weapon wounds.

Plus, if you Daemon Weapon up a Force Sword, and get stupid-lucky with the Daemon Ability rolls, you could have an Aetheric Render (opposed test against Daemon WP or instant death; also bypasses basically every sort of defense there is), Soul Thirster (Force weapon using the Daemon's WP), Force Sword. That's basically three Opposed Willpower or Die for most things.

Black Crusade Daemon Weapon rules are much more complicated. But they could be useful as well. Only use one or the other, though, the DH and BC daemon weapon systems are not designed to be compatible on the same weapon.

One thing I would be concerned about is that you say the rest of the party is primarily melee, while your psyker is the primary ranged combatant. I'd be concerned about the psyker shifting from a ranged focus to a melee focus and encroaching on the melee spotlight of the rest of the group, possibly making things less fun for the other players.

Hey Javcs,

For starters, note that not all my party is melee. When i say that my party is engaged in close combat, most characters are ranged and are engaged against their will. We only have, on the 6 players, one efficient melee guardsman wielding a powersword. The others have either bolters, SP auto weapons, or shootguns. We tend to fight in a lot of confined or semi confined space (spaceships corridors, gang houses, hive world factories etc), meaning that any folk with enough agility and luck can charge pretty fast.

Hence the idea of having another melee char in the group!

I am aware of the RH possibilities but after closer reading i found archana to be too cost paying in terms of corrpution point, unless, of course, you min/max your will power to no end. The idea of stacking up corruption point each time you manifest archana is a big no for me, as i would become a hellspawn in no time, or killed by my inquisitor before that even happens.

I had already to compell my party members to pay a shitload of thrones to bribe some contact at the tricorn palace (my inquisitor sent me there because after being possessed my body looked strange) in order to get me out despite my brute mutation (they recommended me to stop anabolic stuff and bodybuilding lol).

Now, the option of daemon weapons sonds another interesting option, and i already thought about that one.

Honestly, i would rather be satisfied with holding and controling a minor entity giving the "hungering" quality (which is already awesome) than wielding a potential strong alpha warp predator who will rip my mind into pieces when it has the slightest chance to do it. I have been a pretty careful player so far and my GM always smiles when i roll a 9. I guess if i wield a daemon weapon i will offer you a golden chance to pop up his newly bought and painted demons that "he bought for my psyker, just in case :D"

By the way, anyone knows if you can "demonize" a force weapon? Don't you think it sounds contradictory, as force weapons are designed with the intent to slain them?

As a sidenote, i should add that my psyker is already a show stealer. He took down a slaught with in one action shot using full auto pistols and doing nice damage rolls. I also had him lift upwards and full auto people who were one floor higher. (one half action to manifest Float, delay for one half action, and the next turn, lift up and full auto them to death). I also shot people from room ceilings on which i was wall walking. Last time, i took an ascencion level foe by charging him at the edge of a rooftop, except i could float while he just crashed on the ground with his power armor. True, afterwards, you look stupid hanging in the air because you can't move anywhere :-) You can do so many things with psykers, this class is extremely versatile I really like the concept of the savant, which is kind of a battlemage using war gear and enhancing his abilities with his powers. Any bizzare idea you have, psykers have a trick to do it :-)

The idea of going melee is also to let the other characters catch up while i spent the next 1500 points of xp into melee characteristics. If i keep on picking inquiry/ lore skills, i would end up outsmarting my non combat focused teamates since psykers also have a lot of options in that area and int advances are cheap.

You can stick a Daemon into pretty much anything. At least, there are no official restrictions on what you can Daemon-weapon up - although I wouldn't expect any GM to approve sticking a Daemon into a Sanctified/Holy weapon without desecrating it first, and if you try to sanctify a daemon weapon, I'd say it's either just not going to work, or it's going to break the daemon weapon and release the daemon, either sending it back to the warp or letting it out for a brief rampage.

As far as daemon weapons and their attributes go, I wouldn't suggest a powerful daemon either - just a beast, which can get you Heart Seeker for the +10 WS. If you want Soul Thirster or Aetheric Render to be utilized to the best extent, you really need a upper-tier daemon, which is very risky, and not for the faint of heart ... or reasonably sane (usually).

As a psyker, you should be pumping Willpower as far as possible as fast as possible.

As the sorcery stuff and the corruption cost in using arcana, it's 1d10-Willpower, minimum 0, toss in Armor of Contempt, and the pumped Willpower that you should have, and you shouldn't get too much corruption too quickly, as long as you use them with restraint/only when you really need the extra boost, although the bigger concern is the phenomena roll modifier.

That party set up makes me wince a little - yeah, you guys really need another melee type.

Yep, we definitely need another melee character. As i have a high soak and a good melee potential (even with a low stat WS), i feel like i should try to go that path.

As for Daemon weapons, i guess its all a mater of luck since the daemenic qualities and the WP of the entity is rolled. I Wonder if one can try to make the rituel himself, and what kind of rituel is needed to bound a daemon to your weapon.

My WP is still a bit low (53) for that kind of experiment, but i can easily pump it up. But for now i will have to buy some WS upgrades to unlock swift attack and blademaster, that are key talents along with crushing blow.

If i remember, good quality bionic arms only increase strength. And MIU implants only grants a boost of WS/CT using machine like weapons like guns or power fists.

Is there a cybernetic enhancement that can help me boosting my weapon skill?

If i remember, good quality bionic arms only increase strength. And MIU implants only grants a boost of WS/CT using machine like weapons like guns or power fists.

Is there a cybernetic enhancement that can help me boosting my weapon skill?

Honestly if you already have an SB of 5, then you are already pretty good for strength. Anything else is purely a bonus, especially on top of the high damage boost you'd get from a Force/Power weapon.

To my knowledge there are no cybernetic enhancements that boost your weapon skill though. Work on upgrading your WS and take what melee combat advances you can. Honestly? Having good talents and equipment is probably better than having high WS.

Think of it this way, if you like. If you have 30 WS and you take a WS characteristic advance to 35, then you're only improving your odds of hitting the opponent by 5%.

Taking Swift Attack or Blademaster, virtually doubles your chances of hitting (I know in true percentages it doesn't but I don't want to spend my post writing out mathematical formulas).

Using a Best Quality weapon boosts your odds of hitting an additional 10%.

So if it comes right down to it, focus on talents before characteristics. 35 WS is workable. 40 WS is totally fine. Hell, in my own campaign I'm running a melee Psyker with 43 WS + Swift Attack and Blademaster with a best quality sword, and he tends to land a hit the vast majority of the time.

So if it comes right down to it, focus on talents before characteristics. 35 WS is workable. 40 WS is totally fine. Hell, in my own campaign I'm running a melee Psyker with 43 WS + Swift Attack and Blademaster with a best quality sword, and he tends to land a hit the vast majority of the time

Thats true, since you are doing three attack rolls. Also, add the fact that i have the talent "precognitive strike" and it adds a nasty +20 to WS until the end of the next turn. I can chose to sacrifice my force sword's killing will to do this power (free action), and do the force sword power the next turn since the power is still active. Dunno if i will be as effective as when i am with two hercutters hitting an average five time, but force sword is better to take down bulky and armored enemies, and is awesome againse demons.

As a sidenote, guys, anyone has noted the infamous combo you can do with the Sandstone combat drug (book of judgement). It gives +30 to willpower based tests...

So if it comes right down to it, focus on talents before characteristics. 35 WS is workable. 40 WS is totally fine. Hell, in my own campaign I'm running a melee Psyker with 43 WS + Swift Attack and Blademaster with a best quality sword, and he tends to land a hit the vast majority of the time.

I don't know if you mentioned it but do you have divination as one of your disciplines?

Also, have you taken the templar calix career, or simply trained your psyker with the savant skills?

I thought at the beginning that chosing templar calix would make me unable to pick anything from the savant skill tree, but actually you can still pick the skills you want from both sheets. I can't stop thinking about trying to go this way but how would you remove something like 7 corruption points and 6 insanity points? I mean, i already have spent a lot to reduce them but i remembered stacking something like 10 corruption point the very first scenario because of spaming the "healer" minor power, which would make me unable to chose the templar calix order.

Also, lets say that you have removed some insanity and corruption, can you enter the order with a mutation?

The WS advances are really ridiculously expansive...

From a roleplay standpoint, i have thought about an alternative solution. I know that the Logicians my character is bargaining with (mainly selling modified weapons) are also closely tied to an assasin's cult named Ashen Tears.

What do you think guys? Would it be acceptable, instead of entering the templar calix order, to be trained by these assasins and pick some skills like lightning attack and WS advances in a less expansive fashion.

I mean, i am really divided. I really wanna try the melee mechanics of this game, but buying a total of 500 + 750 xp to get a WS of 35 is really a pain in the ass...

"Divination as one of my disciplines"

I have not. Mostly because I personally see Divination as one of the more broken disciplines, with regards to making the GM have a harder time planning things out. Also, I found the idea of Divine Shot especially broken. But that's personal opinions.

The Psyker I run is a Biomancy/Telekinesis one, that primarily focuses on utility based powers over combat ones (so things like Shape Flesh, Toxin Siphon, Regenerate, etc.)

"Templar Calix"

Yep. Took it at rank 5. So that's largely solved my WS problem.

"Removing insanity and corruption"

Well the game itself provides a way to remove insanity. I don't know about Corruption, or if it would even be worth doing it at this point. At this point it almost sounds like you'd lose so much XP just getting yourself to a point you could take the Templar Calix advance that it wouldn't even be worth it in the long run,

"I mean, i am really divided. I really wanna try the melee mechanics of this game, but buying a total of 500+750 XP to get a WS of 35 is really a pain in the ass...."

I took the Templar Calix branch shift, and I'm trying to max my character's intelligence for in-character reasons.

I haven't taken a skill Advance in 6 months. Everyone else in the group is rank 7, almost rank 8, and I'm still rank 6.

So your psyker, is all ready in a radical way,

between

From a roleplay standpoint, i have thought about an alternative solution. I know that the Logicians my character is bargaining with (mainly selling modified weapons) are also closely tied to an assasin's cult named Ashen Tears.

and being a mutant

Joining a death cult is a possible answer but I doubt the Logicans would let you inside the Ashen Tears to the advance skills, plus they are a high tech killers. However you might find a death cult who would let u in, but that would be where you learn to kill better in Melee. Watch out for Moritat's who will kill you, as well laugh, you are 3 of our Hated class in 1 body (heretics, mutant, and psykers).

Your best bet would be to ask your GM about an Elite advance into a Death Cult. Or if just build from what you can access.

I have no idea if your GM allows cross-rulebook Alternate Classes, but Gland Warrior from Rogue Trader's Into The Storm is a nice solutions. It has a requirement of 13 000 xp, so you'll probably have to wait for Ascension to get it, but it's a great class for a giant brute with a lot of strength and toughness. While it is not too powerful at a glance, ability to use drugs and Battle Rage gives you both versatility, as you can use a lot of different drugs, and negate their side effects. And Battle Rage gives you ability to use Rage (+10 S, +10 WS) and still be effective, when you either do not want to use Psychic Powers, or you can grab Mental Rage somehow. Also, you can store some psychic-boosting drugs there in case you really need to pass it
Also from RT, Synthmuscle gives either +10 S (good-quality) or Unnatural Strengthx2 and -10 Agility (Best).
Hammerhand from Biomancy in DH ruins your enemies' life quickly. Why use weapons when you can use your bare hands (or better Synthmuscle) to crush enemies and throw Marines around?
Radical ways like Sorcery are always fun. There is Sorcery that gives you a large increase to Characteristics, and it's not that hard to use.

I would go with frenzy + battle rage + best quality weapon + telekinetic shield + blade master

You would get +20 WS (Frenzy and best quality weapons), +10 toughness and +10 Strenght (and +10 willpower)

Your stats would be boosted to an extent where you can hit easily, soak up a lot of damage and break ennemies in twain when you hit them.

Even with your squishy 25 WS, this would put you a reasonable 45; and we haven't spoken about the all out attack at +20, with reroll for blade master.

Yes, you sacrifice your reaction, but on the other hand, having a power armour (7 points) +6 points of TB, making you soak 13 damages a round...that will be more than enough to protect you from ennemy hits, without taking into account telekinetic powers that protect you. And if you can put your hand on the furious assault (or I don't remember the name in first Ed) where you can use your reaction to make an other attack after a successful all out attack with the same bonus as before, you will chop people into pieces.

And have a combat style that is generally not used.

These are my two cents

My WS is 30 now, and should be 35 in a couple of games if things are going well.

I have several questions regarding Frenzy, but i assume these questions have already been adressed somewhere:

- If battle rage allows you to parry while frenzied, but Frenzy implies that you shall use whennever possible all out attack (you can't parry with all out attacks), isn't this talent very restricted?

- Is it possible to go in and out of Frenzy using a chem gland with Frenzon and Detox? It sounds a good solution to avoid to keep on fighting while outnumbered or outpowered and avoiding certain death

This Frenzy build sounds workable although i haven't seen a character fighting like this, probably because of the "out of control" thing...

@ Alank2

Glandwarrior sounds nice and well fited with my character (he is already developing an addiction), i shall see that when i get the xp

As for Synthmuscles, the issue is that my current agility is 30... so i would go for the good quality if my GM allows me

On the other hand, when there is no more ennemies, you can get out of frenzy and the test is easier round after round, with your willpower (and boosted by frenzy) it shouldn't be an issue.

- Is it possible to go in and out of Frenzy using a chem gland with Frenzon and Detox? It sounds a good solution to avoid to keep on fighting while outnumbered or outpowered and avoiding certain death

If activating the chem gland is a free action, I suppose yes, but otherwise, you must do attack actions.

- If battle rage allows you to parry while frenzied, but Frenzy implies that you shall use whennever possible all out attack (you can't parry with all out attacks), isn't this talent very restricted?

This always seemed strange to me. I interpreted it in the way that you are not forced to make all out attack anymore. Anyway, the all aout attack + furious assault are parts of the combo I told you, so you would resign parrying anyway.

If you had Mental Rage, and Battle Rage I would say you have control of the rage. With Mental Rage you can you Psy and Battle Rage you remain in control it says.

Yes Gland Warrior can be a good fit, for a brute of warrior, but it has some resrtictions, you would have to get True Grit and Die Hard. But with stuff from the Inquistor Handbook, you can put in a Chem Gland.

And yes you can get DHP01 The Lost Dateslate, Synthmuscle Graft for DH, 2000 and Very Rare will give you +1 Str Bonus, or 6000, x2 Unnatural Str but -10 Agility.

I have used the Frenzy Attack with a Flesh Tearer Death Watch Assault Marine and it was interesting.

I would go with frenzy + battle rage + best quality weapon + telekinetic shield + blade master

You would get +20 WS (Frenzy and best quality weapons), +10 toughness and +10 Strenght (and +10 willpower)

Your stats would be boosted to an extent where you can hit easily, soak up a lot of damage and break ennemies in twain when you hit them.

Even with your squishy 25 WS, this would put you a reasonable 45; and we haven't spoken about the all out attack at +20, with reroll for blade master.

Yes, you sacrifice your reaction, but on the other hand, having a power armour (7 points) +6 points of TB, making you soak 13 damages a round...that will be more than enough to protect you from ennemy hits, without taking into account telekinetic powers that protect you. And if you can put your hand on the furious assault (or I don't remember the name in first Ed) where you can use your reaction to make an other attack after a successful all out attack with the same bonus as before, you will chop people into pieces.

And have a combat style that is generally not used.

These are my two cents

The thing here is the fact that most close-combat high-level enemies (Daemons, Psykers w/ Force Weapons, corrupt Nobles with Power Swords, or, Emperor help you, Genestealers) can basically ignore Armor 7. With TB6 and True Grit, you can soak them, but still, they tear through your armor. Unfortunately, high-level play is not armor-friendly - you either fight cultists and such with autopistols who can't hurt you no matter what, or Servitors with Heavy Bolters, who can tear you apart even in Power Armour. Deathwatch is an exception, but it's Deathwatch, so.

And Telekinetic Shield in DH1 is weak - it gives you 1 point of Armour with base roll, and you need to roll higher then any existing power (including Ascension ones) to make it work better. Than either you are using DH rules and you psyker is fried after 2-3 fights because Perils hurt, of you are using Fettered from Ascension... which, in turn, means that you don't need any weapon at all - just get close to them and boil them from the inside in 1 Round with Ascended Powers.

Ups, that sounds like a critique - sorry, it was not meant to be! I agree with you in everything you said (Armor may not be the best, but it's still extremely useful, and with 1-2 point from Telekinetic Shield it can stop most attacks and weaken rest), I just cannot imagine me or my players giving up their Reaction for another attack, unless they either a) like gambling, or b) have no choice (e.g. they are dead next turn anyway). Based on my experience, I'd take dodge or parry over second attack every time. And after Parry, you can also Counterattack, which is nice .

Also, one more thing - never forget about Force Fields! They can save your life. I'd rather use rules from Rogue Trader and up than DH1, but either way, they can save your life.

- If battle rage allows you to parry while frenzied, but Frenzy implies that you shall use whennever possible all out attack (you can't parry with all out attacks), isn't this talent very restricted?

This always seemed strange to me. I interpreted it in the way that you are not forced to make all out attack anymore. Anyway, the all aout attack + furious assault are parts of the combo I told you, so you would resign parrying anyway.

Yeah, I'd say you don't have to do All Out Attack anymore. But you can, if you want.

Good points made here!

At a certain level indeed, people start to show up with bolters, power weapons, or heavy weapons that ignore or just cook up most of the strongest armors.

TK shield becomes interesting only when your armor points are above a certain threesold, which is why i searched for a power armor (that took me a long time and all my savings). Power Swords top at 6 penetration i think, and if i remember correctly, genestealer claws have 7 penetration. A power fist has 8, and a power axe has 7, while a psyker with psy rating 5 has 7.

Then TK shield really shines, although nothing like "Flesh like iron" (which is broken in my opinion). That 2 AP points can really reveal handy, although you always have to Wonder if theres no better power to sustain. It can reach 3 AP with invocation and a little diceluck, and this 3 AP will be damage soak unless your foes are using an Astartes Terminator chainfist.

Plasma and melta weaponery can be addressed by "Endure flames", and heavy SP weapons and bolters are handled by the how useful "Catch projectiles".

The main issue is therefore melee foes with power/force weapons, or improved natural weapons.

Fortunately, there are a handful psychic powers that can disturb power fields, and spasm can make a powerfist-wielding guardsman cook himself :-)

As for Genestealers... just run. Or use preternatual awareness and pray to start first to use force barrage on him.

And Telekinetic Shield in DH1 is weak - it gives you 1 point of Armour with base roll, and you need to roll higher then any existing power (including Ascension ones) to make it work better. Than either you are using DH rules and you psyker is fried after 2-3 fights because Perils hurt, of you are using Fettered from Ascension... which, in turn, means that you don't need any weapon at all - just get close to them and boil them from the inside in 1 Round with Ascended Powers.

Didn't know for the telekine shield of DH1; but I disagree for the death by perils. I've got a psyker that went throught 28 000 of XP and got 2-3 perils in all the dozens of games we played. The system is pretty low on perils of the warp.

ps, that sounds like a critique - sorry, it was not meant to be! I agree with you in everything you said (Armor may not be the best, but it's still extremely useful, and with 1-2 point from Telekinetic Shield it can stop most attacks and weaken rest), I just cannot imagine me or my players giving up their Reaction for another attack, unless they either a) like gambling, or b) have no choice (e.g. they are dead next turn anyway). Based on my experience, I'd take dodge or parry over second attack every time. And after Parry, you can also Counterattack, which is nice .

It also depends pretty much on your GM and the type of games he gives you. I personnaly know that such a build would be efficient in the games I master because cultists will stay cultists and won't become stronger because players are. They will fall on greater conspiracies, some greater ennemies in said conspiracies, some stronger bosses and sometimes some stronger elite units that attack them, but in the end, a psyker in power armour, with very High toughness, lots of wounds and attacks that just cleave people in halves will be able to shine.

PS: your comments were very civil, I didn't take anything personnal.

In the end, as I said, your character won't be very efficient against very strong ennemie, but put everything on your side against a powerfield wielding adversary and start the fight and cut him in twain.

And now I agree with everything you said... but I still wouldn't use my Reaction to attack strong enemies - in fights between high-level characters, few hits are enough to crush you, and every hit you dodge or parry is crucial.

Perhaps it's just my playstyle (BTW, I'm the GM, which I guess says a lot about me... and not too positive ), or my players' preference, but in most cases, high-level fights were contests of Dodge/Parry/Counterattack, using defensive actions and generally trying to figure out a way of having 1 more attack or 1 more Reaction than Enemy this turn, so you can hit him safely and do not worry about Counterattack hitting you for a lot of Damage. The only really short fights there were when Psyker used his Force Weapon to insta-kill enemy after one hit; aside from that, it was quickly turning into contest of Reactions and Counterattacks.

So, if you have enough Strength and PR, and you do not worry about using a LOT of dice to kill enemy instantly when you hit him, yes, All Out Attack and hitting again for your reaction is good, as target is dead by definition. But if you miss, the target survives, or has enough Reactions to Parry/Dodge, or unfortunate Peril catches you in the middle, you have no Reactions and enemy is going to pound you into a pulp. I just like to play it safer, but I guess it;s up to you. And you will definitely have more offensive potential than the enemy, with +20, multiple attacks and Force Weapon. Adding Barrage and some Psychic Powers, you will also deal enormous damage. Definitely worth a try.

P.S. Once your characters levels up and you will have some experience with this playstyle, please come back and tell us how it went - I'm really curious ..

The action I found is the deciding factor between high-level duels is Feint. The ability to make an undodgeable attack is game-changing in that situation.

Yes - however, it has one drawbacks. If you're playing DH, Feint is an Attack Action, so you can only attack each other turn (it was fixed in RT Errata, but not DH Errata, as far as I'm aware) and also theoretically enemy can Dodge or Parry Feint itself (which is a really funny idea in itself), as it's an Attack Action.

If you rule that it's not an Attack, yes, Feint is a good alternative to Attack/Parry/Counterattack/Parry contest. Both of these styles of combat happen, depends on what style enemy uses, as they can be used to target enemies weaknesses. But I think we're digressing a little bit from main discussion here . I'm really curious how that psyker will play out, though.

Counter attack can't be parried, so these are the real game changer. Parrying, counter-attacking, one-shot killing your adversary.

So with a frenzied fighter which has battle rage, you parry and then counter attack and one-shot your adversary.

On my part, I had a duel with a player tonight, between a flesh tearer captain and a templar calix...and it was more a contest of counter attacks. The duel ended pretty fast.