A symptom of stupids: FIX (Yah-Me Don't Know How To Plays-Glarbs!) VIABLE (Don't Play For REAL Funs!) META (SNARGELS Da-RULES!!!)

I see a lot of different sides on this issue. The sky is falling; the ship is worthless unless every single unique and generic see table time; this isn't a fix, it's a buff but don't fly without out it.

For me the reason I'm loosing my love for fixes, buffs, whatever is because of the number of autoincludes. These don't add a level of depth to the game or give a variety of options if 90% of the time you really should use them. Note to self: just because I don't personally use that upgrade if 90% of everyone else does then it's probably an autoinclude. Just because the autothrusters can be used on other ships doesn't make it not an autoinclude, the glass cannon TIE Interceptor was prone to not surviving range 3; turrets made it worse; A-Wings with the refit (not a title btw) is 2 points cheaper than a standard A-Wing with no upgrades; and all of the others above (TLT; Y title; Adv AC or ATC; etc...). Several people have listed lots of stuff that usually gets added to ships in regular play. In my limited opinion this isn't adding to the depth of the game or giving me variety. Rather it is a growing list of upgrades that you need to know in order that ships are fairly balanced.

Finally, sometimes, I do think that we are a little too concerned with fractional mathematical balances. Maybe the X-Wing stills needs a buff to see more table time than the B-Wing. I don't know but we are getting so close that anything could push it into 'Over Powered'. So rather than risking one fix messing the entire game up we'll get several smaller nudges that you have to remember and keep track of. I think VanorDM told me that the TIE's are great statistically which is why they were the standard. But in competition since they have wide dice swings (good and bad days) which causes them to be far less reliable or survivable as the Rebels in a tournament. Does that mean down the road we need to fix all Imperial ships? The math looks good but the Rebels win far more tournaments than the Imperial. i.e. the Rebels see far more table time than the Imperials, kind of like the B-Wing uniques and X-Wing generics now?

Now that I've shared a few of my thoughts, I do like the game of Star Wars universe. Though I'm pretty sure I would not have gotten into it if it wasn't for the Star Wars brand. Having a ton of options is one thing. Having specific things (autoincludes) that need to added to most ships is another.

For me the reason I'm loosing my love for fixes, buffs, whatever is because of the number of autoincludes.

I think people are too quick to call something an autoinclude. The only true autoinclude in X-Wing right now IMO anyway is the x1 title.

Autothrusters are nice but you are paying for them so you have to at least think twice about them. The A-Wing refit is also nice but you're locking yourself out of missiles. Granted most missiles aren't worth taking but that doesn't mean the refit is on par with the x1 title.

Even IA isn't really an autoinclude, because you're giving up other upgrades.

There are a number of no brainers though, like the refit or IA, they're very good and unless you have some other use for that slot, there's no reason not to include them.

Rather it is a growing list of upgrades that you need to know in order that ships are fairly balanced.

But what is the alternative? Do we leave underperforming ships as is, or do we do something to fix whatever issue they might have?

Finally, sometimes, I do think that we are a little too concerned with fractional mathematical balances.

That all depends on what environment you're playing in. If I'm playing a friend I'll throw down 4 X-Wings because they look cool. If I'm paying on a league night I'll give more thought to how strong the list is because there's a prize on the line. For the Store Championship I'll want to bring a strong list. For Regionals or Worlds I'll want to bring the strongest list I can.

Fractional mathematical balances does matter a great deal when all else is equal, and you're playing at the top end of the competitive environment.

If I spend $60 and take off a day or two of work, to play at Worlds, then winning is going to be much more important to me then normal. I'm not looking to just have some fun, I want to do well and finish as high as I can. When that's true then any advantage I can gain and any disadvantage I can avoid can make the difference between top 16, 8, 4 or winning and going home early.

Prockets, clusters, Guidance chimps and the LRS mod all say "actually the Chaardaan refit might not be best for you..." now regarding A-wings.

Totally not an autoinclude by any means.

In fact Chimps, LRS and Int Astro argue with each other all the time when i load up voidstates...

Upcoming TIE Defender titles... defo not autoincludes, a vanilla ace could still work wonders.

Can't argue the X1 though.

Brobots technically have the IG2000 title autoinclude but... well only if you take the two.

The only real bad offender aside from vader is in my opinion Soontir fel.

May as well have PTL, RGP and AT stapled to him.

The A-Wing refit is also nice but you're locking yourself out of missiles. Granted most missiles aren't worth taking but that doesn't mean the refit is on par with the x1 title.

To further VanorDM's this point, missiles can now be much more useful with the advent of Guidance Chip.

So, do you take Chaardan refit and use the saved points for Autothrusters, and hope to give your opponent the death of a thousand cuts?

Or do you take the Guidance Chips as your modification, pick up Proton Rockets or a Concussion Missile, and look to put a serious hurtin' on someone?

Having recently fielded A-Wings with Crackshot and Homing Missiles BEFORE Guidance Chips became a thing, I can tell you their mere presence on the table can make your opponent seriously second guess what they're doing.

I've taken Autothrusters on ships to see them never actually used once over the course of a full game, at which point they become nothing more than a 2 point insurance policy premium, and a wasted one at that. I've seen TIE Interceptors run to great effect with Elite Talents OTHER than Push the Limit (heavens forbid!)

So with that being said, does the idea of something being an "autoinclude" say more about a player's mindset than it does about the game itself?

edit: ......and ninja'd. Goddamit Darius, your ninpo is on point today.

While I agree sometimes the word "fix" is used loosely (I often try to use it in quotations to identify just that), I'm more baffled by users getting bent out of shape over the use of specific words when people are suggesting ships need a change.

This is the English language, folks. Get used to it.

The only problem is that in most games BROKEN means utter game-breaking cheese

and on these forums it somehow means the opposite.

What's weird.

More to that FFG doesn't like words "nerf" "buff" "up" or the likes. it's all "fixes" for some issue.

Like TLT. It's a fix for PWT meta trollface.tlt

So, do you take Chaardan refit and use the saved points for Autothrusters, and hope to give your opponent the death of a thousand cuts?

I don't think I'm being clear or I think I'm seeing it yet a little differently. The refit isn't even a title so a new player may not know where to even look for it. A proper fix would have been a different pilot card, two points cheaper that didn't need and upgrade.

I think people are too quick to call something an autoinclude. The only true autoinclude in X-Wing right now IMO anyway is the x1 title.

Perhaps but I think too many deny that there are several upgrades that are so close to being autoincludes they amount to the same thing. TIE Interceptors without AutoThrusters may be 'viable' but they are very rare and in nearly every competitive build. Sure you don't 'need' them. If you're not flying missiles then the refit should be an autoinclude unless the player is deliberately giving themselves a 2 point handicap per ship. Many just argued that only the TIE Adv was really broken but look at all of the upgrades to get things on the table like the A-Wing.

Like VanorDM asked what would I prefer. It's hard to say. I think leaving a broken ship unfixed is lousy. So maybe this is the best way. Maybe, as I said in a different post, if not 2.0 then pilots that included these autoincludes upgrades that are used nearly all of the time. Will that give us a larger selection of pilots. Will some unique pilots possible come in two versions. You bet! But at least when I choose a pilot I'll know I don't have to hunt through a pile of cards that has the upgrades that normal use, some in titles, other in missiles and some in modifications and some....

We can have both a broad in depth game and simpler to keep the balance. Maybe we are getting there as they release generic pilots whose points are so close to push other generics out of the way. But that still leave a nakes A-Wing that is 2 points over costed and Soontir that normally files with three upgrade cards.

I still fly Vader every time I take out the Advanced, and I have never used his Title. I've played against it, and yeah, extra crit with unspent TL is sweet sweet candy, but you know what? So too is 2 actions per turn and shields. I'm still marvelling at having shields on my Imps, lol. Even if you use the Title, there are so many good options for it's use, you'd be silly to not at least try them.

I even run him without EU, if you can believe that. He does fine. There are plenty of reasons not to load him up and EU is one that can certainly be passed over on. He still delivers prockets like a champ, and even though I only ever run Vader, most of this stuff can be said for the other pilots as well. I'm sure proponents of those pilots can attest to their usefulness with and without the title.

Not giving Darth Vater his ATC is like not giving Soontir his PTL and telling Dash to leave HLK at home.

In other words: deliberately placing yourself in a worse position than you could have.

What if you want to give dash a mangler, to save the donut hole?

What if you are trying a tanky sensor jammer vader, or AC and then giving him missiles?

Did you guys hear that?

nvm. Thought I heard something.

Anyways, yeah Accuracy Corrector seems like a solid bet on Vader too. 2 hits all the time? Sure I'll take that! And I myself am fond of skipping EU on Dash as well! I also like to give him an Ion Cannon and have Leebo drive most of the time.

With X1 Vader kinda may as well have it. I mean it's free, there is literally no reason not to take it. But at least he has choices what system to go with.

Next time somebody posts a topic about "fix" or "fixing" I'm going to post a very unpleasant video of something being fixed.

I mean it's free, there is literally no reason not to take it.

And that is IMO the key. What most people consider autoincludes are just really good options, perhaps even the best option, but not the only option.

With the Tie Advanced, there is no reason at all not to take the x1 title and some sort of system upgrade unless you don't own the cards.

Exactly. The only good example I can really find where no other build seems to work is Soontir with PTL.

If anyone can disprove me, please do so. I will gladly stand corrected.

Also and this may seem a bit like splitting hairs... But just because Soontir without PTL is bad, doesn't mean PTL is an autoinclude on every Tie Interceptor. It's almost always a great upgrade for the ships that can take it.

But people have won games flying them without it. For the Saber Squadron pilot, Juke, Outmaneuver or even Pred might be good options to consider.

Also I think it's important to notice that many of us talk about balance in relationship to things like Store Championship and Regionals, and not casual games with friends.

Oh I was careful to say Soontir.

I run Turr / VI. He can boost or roll, THEN Shoot (early) to spin out of the way.

Oh I was careful to say Soontir.

I know and I understood your point. I was just adding to it.

Yeah just being clear (i'd add likes if i could). What I really like is that the meta tends to change, so the "best" option can change with it. Look at B-wings and guidance chimps. Will Nera come into her own now? (I think so).

Look at Tractor-Sycks.

But people have won games flying them without it. For the Saber Squadron pilot, Juke, Outmaneuver or even Pred might be good options to consider.

I've seen Opportunist used effectively on TIE Interceptors as well - Saber Squadron Pilots, specifically. A couple of higher PS pilots shoot first, stripping tokens, then the Saber Squadron opens up with four/five dice.

"Fix" implies something is "Broken", which is very rarely the case in this game. Sure, certain ships can occasionally use a tweak in functionality, a slight buff or nerf - but that's an ongoing process, and we we see upgrades which improve or reduce the effectiveness of various ships appear with every release.

Rare?

FFG has attempted/fixed the following:

TIE/Phantom (nerf).

A-Wing (Chardaan Refit).

TIE/Advanced (ATC).

TIE/Interceptor (Autothrusters).

Tactician (pre YV-666 nerf).

Y-Wing (Title and/or TLT).

Ordnance (various toys).

TIE/Defender (two Titles).

Let's not kid ourselves, the game is reasonably balanced but it's not perfect. Why else would FFG have implemented some of the more blatant and elegant fixes?

It can be healthy to discuss fixes when the tournament data shows that some ships have been under/over-performing.

Let's not kid ourselves, some of those aren't fixes, but options. The only thing in the game that was broken IMHO was the pre-nerf Phantom (maybe tactician once they decided to release a ship with 3 crew slots and a 180 degree arc). For those other things, they have given you options which can be considered fixes, but they come at a cost (eg you lose the missile or title slots). As more is released to those slots, you have harder and harder choices to make about these "fixes". For example, let's say there is a modification that is like expose but action free and works like auto-thrusters (you can increase your attack at range 3/out-of-arc at the cost of lowering agility, let's say they make it an awesome 0-cost upgrade). What do you get rid of on your Interceptor?

The balance in the game occurs by releasing the product and then releasing more options after the product is play tested by a very large audience.

I mean it's free, there is literally no reason not to take it.

And that is IMO the key. What most people consider autoincludes are just really good options, perhaps even the best option, but not the only option.With the Tie Advanced, there is no reason at all not to take the x1 title and some sort of system upgrade unless you don't own the cards.

For example, Chardaan Refit. You could call this an option because you can also use the missile slot for something else. But effectively, it's an autoinclude, just one that increases the price of all missiles by 2 points for the cheaper A-Wing.

But effectively, it's an autoinclude, just one that increases the price of all missiles by 2 points for the cheaper A-Wing.

That's a matter of perspective. To me the cost of a A-Wing is what's printed on the card, a cost that can be reduced by two if I don't take a missile.

Now while there are few missiles that are great options, that's becoming less true and with guidance chips and others they may very well become a much better option.

I'm spending more time listening to podcasts and hanging out on the Squad Lists side of the forum lately because of the lack of real discussion outside of spoilers on the main page.

Be the change you want to see: Start a discussion about something ON TOPIC !AND! not about fixing something.