Missions add so much more than a simple deathmatch. It gives focus to what you are doing and allows for specific builds for specific goals.

There's a reason online shooters offer more than just a simple kill'em all mode.

Except the games based on major franchises that somehow skip co-op/campaign modes for some reason....

(**** you EA/DICE).

Of course missions lead to having their own problems, without casualties being a real issue SRS (Suicide run syndrome)*is the bane of mission designers everywhere.

If the system forces you to care about your pilots, things get WAY more interesting.

*Suicide Run Syndrome: The attitude and combat style of focusing purely on your objective, regardless of any casualties. If you lose 6 ace pilots but get the macguffin, then you win. In single mission terms, you've won. In a well written campaign however, you've crippled your forces, winning the battle, but losing the war.

I know it's perhaps not a popular opinion, but I wouldn't mind seeing X-Wing take a rest until there's more canon content (ie, not assault gunboats from 20-year old video games and other things from the obliterated EU).

Instead, I'd like to see Star Wars: The Clone Wars Miniatures Game. Rebublic vs CIS. There's loads from Episodes I-III and The Clone Wars, and the game could – and I'm sure would – be designed in such a way as to be interchangeable with X-Wing, allowing for a standalone Clone Wars experience or adding a ton of new content for X-Wing players.

There's even canon examples of CIS ships being used by proto-Rebels against the Empire, in the rather enjoyable novel Tarkin.

Assault Gunboats exist in the FFG RPGs. As do the more recent Krayt/Kimogila gunships.

I'd be cool seeing clone war era ships, but not a clone war era game. The prequel era is best left forgotten now.

Its an option isnt it Graeme and i see your point.

I think i'd rather see Xwing 'perfected' on a high and all possible rules conflicts ironed out than endless wierd EU ships trotted out so they can include a card that will be the real reason you're buying a ship.

You could include those cards as part of mission packs couldnt you.

But while i'm not a prequels fan and probably wouldnt play prequels or clone wars era 'xwing'... i think a lot of people would and it would give the new films time to build up a collection of ships while still providing diehards the ability to collect and FFG a revenue stream.

I will say one thing for agreeing about how 100/6 builds can be totally offset by a mission or campaign. we played that massive 'endor' game last year and ships really came into their own. Inteceptors tried to take out the fighters before the fighers could take out the bombers before the bombers could hit the large ships.

Ships actual 'roles' seemed to be more important.

And that is interesting because an 800 point a side epic game is scaling up the ruleset so its close to breaking point tbh but... the ruleset actually seemed to improve in 'flavour', the only problem was the length of time each turn took.

Now if a 'super epic' format came out where you moved all ships in a flight at once and shot them all at...... oh hang on thats Armada

The prequel era is best left forgotten now.

Well, my opinion and yours differ massively on that. Isn't life grand that way?

Absolutely. I'm not saying you are wrong. But I can't agree with you. I've gone over this argument a few times now, because I really like some of the prequel era designs (Torrent, Vwing, ARC) but feel that they are better being added into X-wing/own core set rather than a seperate game.

I also feel like the CIS faction would be underrepresented/under played, and that the game would suffer for this. Also unlike the TFA sets, the lines are blurry as to what side which ships go on. The solution really would be "all three".

My dream would be some system that allows Armada, X-wing and Assault to essentially merge effectively into one campaign system.

I might buy into Armada when that happens.

My wife will kill me.

Absolutely. I'm not saying you are wrong. But I can't agree with you. I've gone over this argument a few times now, because I really like some of the prequel era designs (Torrent, Vwing, ARC) but feel that they are better being added into X-wing/own core set rather than a seperate game.

I also feel like the CIS faction would be underrepresented/under played, and that the game would suffer for this. Also unlike the TFA sets, the lines are blurry as to what side which ships go on. The solution really would be "all three".

All valid points, but – speaking as someone who has worked in a game design environment – nothing that competent design can't solve. Concerned that players might not engage with the CIS? Give them some interesting and evocative design mechanics. Off the top of my head, I can think of some interesting ways to promote synergy between droid ships that would be broadly in line with an existing mechanic (the IG-88s) without feeling like a copy. And there are loads of other great CIS designs too. There are also some really unique-looking ships from other CIS supporters (such as the gorgeous Umbaran fighter) that I'm sure would draw plenty of people towards the faction.

But ho hum. We shall indeed agree to disagree, as the saying goes.

EDIT: Interestingly, while I want a semi-separate Clone Wars starfighter game, I'd love to see Clone Wars-era ships from both factions just added straight into Armada. I'm contradictory that way.

Makes sense. The Acclamator was used by the empire, and on the whole I love every single clone wars era capital ship design.

If the Seperatists were given the "Republic Commando" Treatment then i'd love them anyway. The movies/TCW series made them too cartoony an enemy to take seriously.

Speaking of Republic Commando: It just occurred to me.

How cool would an Imperial Assault Do over be: Members of Delta team vs Battle droids.

In my headcanon Delta Team joined the Rebellion. (Important note: I typically side with the Empire, I cosplay a Stormtrooper IRL and intend to join the 501st, I also have ordered a TIE flight suit fron Anovos, and prefer to fly empire in the x-wing series of games BUT I do enjoy Rebel too, the only thing I can't really do is pirate) (This is itself odd, as while I love playing Space Marines, I adore everything about Chaos in 40k... so I am all pirate there...).

I love it when we have these civil and erudite disagreements which are in essence fundamentally opposed but stay civil.

I'll say it again, this is one of the few forums where i see this level of reasoned debate more often than not.

You're a pleasure to chat with guys but I must now go and make some food and do some work

Unless someone else fancies writing 2000 words on the Rhodesian Light Infantry in the 70s for me....

No? Thought not. Catch you all laters

My dream would be some system that allows Armada, X-wing and Assault to essentially merge effectively into one campaign system.

I might buy into Armada when that happens.

My wife will kill me.

You forgot the Rebellion game

I love that idea for Imperial Assault... Um, Clone Assault. Again, I'd love to see Clone Wars-era stuff added to Imperial Assault. The (canon) Darth Vader comics have had Vader reactivating a battle droid factory to build a private army, and Tarkin saw a clone trooper leading a squad of new recruit Stormtroopers, so both are still around in the Imperial era.

As a completely off-topic aside, among the things I'm working on right now are various Chaos-themed short story pitches for Black Library... search my name on Goodreads to see what else I've written for them. Seriously, please do. I make money whenever someone buys one of my stories.

My dream would be some system that allows Armada, X-wing and Assault to essentially merge effectively into one campaign system.

I might buy into Armada when that happens.

My wife will kill me.

You forgot the Rebellion game

This doesn't actually interest me. I played the videogame, a lot but truth is: I prefer small squad/squadron combat. Even Armada is too great a scale for me. Small elite forces - hence space/chaos marines.

With Armada I am considering it for small skirmishes that fit into the x-wing megagame (E.G. a Frigate running from a stardestroyer, or fighting a guerrilla war against a Gladiator class)...

Maybe this is the OT side/x-wing player side of me but to me, fleet on fleet action doesn't fit the OT era. Sure, rebels had their ships but rarely were willing to risk them in real confrontations.

Example: Right now I am playing through the original X-wing. The TOD's I am most looking forward to are 4 and 5 (Imperial Pursuit, B-wing). Right after the battle of Yavin were perhaps the darkest days of the Rebellion, great they destroyed the death star. Now they just have to worry about being constantly hounded by the Rebel fleet, they had to fight tooth and nail just to get out of there and escape. Remember the Maximus people.

My dream would be some system that allows Armada, X-wing and Assault to essentially merge effectively into one campaign system.

I might buy into Armada when that happens.

My wife will kill me.

You forgot the Rebellion game

This doesn't actually interest me. I played the videogame, a lot but truth is: I prefer small squad/squadron combat. Even Armada is too great a scale for me. Small elite forces - hence space/chaos marines.

With Armada I am considering it for small skirmishes that fit into the x-wing megagame (E.G. a Frigate running from a stardestroyer, or fighting a guerrilla war against a Gladiator class)...

Maybe this is the OT side/x-wing player side of me but to me, fleet on fleet action doesn't fit the OT era. Sure, rebels had their ships but rarely were willing to risk them in real confrontations.

Example: Right now I am playing through the original X-wing. The TOD's I am most looking forward to are 4 and 5 (Imperial Pursuit, B-wing). Right after the battle of Yavin were perhaps the darkest days of the Rebellion, great they destroyed the death star. Now they just have to worry about being constantly hounded by the Rebel fleet, they had to fight tooth and nail just to get out of there and escape. Remember the Maximus people.

Epic = Good

I'm starting to think there's no life in 100 point games. Aces, aces everywhere!

120 point minimum, 600 is the key

Armada is best played at 400-500 as well.

OT era sucks because there's only skirmish.

The Rebels used chiefly Hit and fade tactics on Imperial convoys, striking then GTFO'ing. For a wider campaign this can be very tense and interesting, but yes. it doesn't lead to that many epic games.

I can see your point, even agree with it. But then I like Skirmish leading to big epic blowouts.

Going a wee bit off-topic, I almost think that Armada should be slightly more asymmetrical in fleet building. The 1/3 points for fighters makes Rebel fleets look a tad wrong, in my opinion. I'd love to play some games with a mostly-fighters Rebel fleet with a couple of capital ships in support, against a host of Star Destroyers... That would feel very Star Wars to me.

I'd like to see Rebel fighter only strikes against Imperial ships/convoys. As I had mentioned, the rebels tended to only risk their cap ships for major things. I hope that this theme is kept in nucanon.

Of course, arguably this goes back to 100 point skirmishes. Afterall, what chance does an unarmed freighter have without it's escorts. Maybe the 100 point skirmish is the fighter strike destroying the escorts before they turn their guns on the convoy...

Going a wee bit off-topic, I almost think that Armada should be slightly more asymmetrical in fleet building. The 1/3 points for fighters makes Rebel fleets look a tad wrong, in my opinion. I'd love to play some games with a mostly-fighters Rebel fleet with a couple of capital ships in support, against a host of Star Destroyers... That would feel very Star Wars to me.

A-swarm and Rhimerball are too much to bear xD

In essence, at its heart, X-Wing isn't complicated:

Pick a maneuver from a set list of possibilities for each

Execute that maneuver, by ship, in numerical order, perform an action where applicable

In numerical order, designate 1 target and execute an attack

There are some finer details in how an attack is handled, and what to do when certain things happen, but those hardly complicate the game.

The emergent gameplay is what comes from the different interactions and the different ships and pilots and upgrades, the added complexity.

But you can make it as complex or simple as you want. That is up to the players.

The problem I have with certain upgrades and pilot skills is that they add to the complication without adding (enough) to the complexity.

TLTs are a prime example. To attack a ship, you roll some dice, the enemy takes some damage. Simple and easy.

But then with a TLT you add in some extra steps, for no real benefit. You're still just rolling some dice, and the enemy are just taking damage. Due to the limiting nature of X Wings special dice and the fact that our models only have a single 'attack' statistic, we are compelled to add in complicated upgrades like the TLT in order to represent attacks which are accurate, but deal little damage.

TIE Interceptors are another good example IMO. You need pilots/upgrades from no less than three different expansions (and one of them isn't even Imperial!) in order to run them at full efficiency. And the crux of the problem is that they aren't just slimmed down, cheaper versions of themselves without the royal guard title, autothrusters and stealth device. Without all those extra bits slapped on they're just rubbish. A new player has a very steep learning curve of how to construct his list, and has to understand that some options are just rubbish.

If we consider that the ships and pilots themselves are the core of the game, the meat and veg, the bread and butter, then the game itself is starting to feel very bloated because nearly every ship practically requires half a dozen upgrades just to run efficiently. No one runs bare bones Interceptors or Advanced, E Wings just never see play except for Corran, the plain old Y Wing never sees the table, the Defender and Bombers are rubbish, the Advanced can't fly without it's title AND a system, the X Wing already needs the Integrated Astro upgrade and people are still clamouring for another fix for it...

And that's not even considering the upgrade synergy lists. In any game that requires list building there is a continuum where on one end, a random assortment of models thrown into a list has no synergy and is just a garbage list. On the other end is a finely built and tested list where every model compliments every other model and the list is like an untouchable shining god on the table top.

The better the game, the smaller that continuum is. The better balanced the ships are, and the closer the two ends of that continuum are. List building is fun, but the main emphasis of the game should always be on actual playing of the game on the table, and lists from garbage end of the spectrum should always have a solid chance against lists from the refined end. The more and more ships and upgrades that are released for X Wing, the less true this holds for our game. It's not a linear equation where more upgrades automatically equates to more potential imbalance between lists, it's just a natural result of the design process where new upgrade cards are designed to do things that are new and different to old ones. The result is that more emphasis is placed on list building and the basics of the game (flying well) become less important over time.

All this is complication added into the game. Ye, it's good that FFG are taking steps to balance their ships but it's starting to become too much. The game needs a reboot already, and the problem will only grow in years to come.