If there would be no new releases I'd still have a fully functioning game at my disposal.

I stopped buying Magic cards (well, almost, some duel decks here and there) years ago but that does not diminish the fun I can have with the many thousands of cards still in my possession.

Seems im not alone in considering chess a form of 'war game' or even 'miniatures game' to a degree.

Oh I love chess too, great game.

I think its a shame if you really think that new stuff is necessary to enjoy the game.

No it's a matter of having the game on the shelves so new player can get into the game.

Once a game stops putting out new material shops will stop stocking it due to slowing sales.

You know it, you used to work for GW (Correct me if I'm wrong) so you know first hand what happens once the flow of new stuff stops.

The customers who have it all wont buy any more, that slows down the sales. Then the shops stock less and less of said game, game becomes less visible to new players, and before we know it we are online reminiscing about the good ol days when we had lots of different people to play BattleTech, FullThrust, Babylon 5 Wars, Crimson Sky's, Epic, BattleFleet Gothic, gah the list goes on....

Makes me sad when I look at my hordes of old wargaming stuff and have hardly anyone to play with

I don't want to see this happen with X-wing.

I imagine you probably stay awake at night worrying about 'meta' and stuff like too eh?

No I don't net list.

Though it can be a good place to start for new players tbh

If there would be no new releases I'd still have a fully functioning game at my disposal.

I stopped buying Magic cards (well, almost, some duel decks here and there) years ago but that does not diminish the fun I can have with the many thousands of cards still in my possession.

That's the difference though, you chose to stop buying.

Once a game stops making new stuff it tends to go out of print not to long after.

Then you may start finding it harder to get games in as the player base moves on to the next thing.

If there would be no new releases I'd still have a fully functioning game at my disposal.

I stopped buying Magic cards (well, almost, some duel decks here and there) years ago but that does not diminish the fun I can have with the many thousands of cards still in my possession.

That's the difference though, you chose to stop buying.

Once a game stops making new stuff it tends to go out of print not to long after.

Then you may start finding it harder to get games in as the player base moves on to the next thing.

Majority of my games are played at home, with friends. I don't see that would change much, .

And even then, I wouldn't expect this game to last forever. No game does, except maybe Go, Chess and Tafl.

No no no no!!

Many of you lot disgust me with silly words like bloat and obscure.

This is a living miniatures war game.

If the releases stop coming then the game also stops evolving.

And that's... bad...?

Of course it's bad if the game becomes stagnant.

That - in fact- was, is and still should be the original intention of any game.

Is that how you would introduce the game to a new player?

I have successfully introduced a number of my mates and some randoms from my local game groups to this great game.

I don't start with 100 point tourney rules, I start with the core set (1 X-wing, 2 Tie's) and go from there. Logic.

And if you'd in fact read my post entirely, rather than just flying though it, you wouldn't have to ask that question, mate...!

Having lots of options is not "bloat" it's options.

If X-wing had stopped after it had all the OT ships then where would we be?

Tie swarm Vs Fat Han Vs B-wings. Boring!

You may not like it But having lots of different options is FAR FAR better for the over all health of any game than only having a few options.

The latter is bloat.

EU ships, AT-ATs...

I just say

MOAR GOOD CONTENT!

Because frankly I don't care if it's an assymmetric Dengar flying toilet seat of Doom, or some land speeders

I'm here for the GAMEPLAY.

and not for SW.

No no no no!!

Many of you lot disgust me with silly words like bloat and obscure.

This is a living miniatures war game.

If the releases stop coming then the game also stops evolving.

Good. Evolution for it's own sake is a waste of time and money.

A better example would be to point out a table top wargame that stopped making new miniatures and continues to grow despite the lack of new stuff coming out....

I can't think of any...

SAGA

Hail Caesar

Impetus

Sword and Spear

And if we change your paramaters from 'grow' to 'continue to thrive and have a vibrant tournament scene' then we can include Epic and Bloodbowl, and if we change it to simply being 'healthy' then we can include Mordheim and Necromunda and Inquisimunda (and it's variants) and BFG and Battletech.

Hell, BFG has been entirely out of production nearly longer than X Wing has been around, and I could arrange a game this weekend if I wanted.

And you know what, BFG was around for fourteen years. X Wing has only been with us for three (or is it four now?) and is already feeling the bloat. Will it continue at this pace for another ten years? What will the game look like in 2026?

The key to any good game is for it to be complex, without being complicated.

X Wing is starting to become complicated, and at this extremely early juncture of it's lifespan, that's not a good sign. The designers need to seriously start considering resetting the game to a 2.0 version and re balancing everything.

Complicated = good

simplicity isn't good for anyone who's not a complete newcommer to wargames.

I need moar dice, moar maneuvers, moar card combos, moar cool minis for the showcase, moar gamaplay variety.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOAR

No no no no!!Many of you lot disgust me with silly words like bloat and obscure.This is a living miniatures war game.If the releases stop coming then the game also stops evolving.

Good. Evolution for it's own sake is a waste of time and money.

"Cancer"!

Can't tell me that'd be a good thing...!

Complicated = good

simplicity isn't good for anyone who's not a complete newcommer to wargames.

I need moar dice, moar maneuvers, moar card combos, moar cool minis for the showcase, moar gamaplay variety.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOAR

No, complexity = good.

Complication should always be considered a necessary evil.

It's important to understand the difference. A good game should always seek ways to increase complexity while reducing complication.

All lawyers are Rules lawyers as well.

I just LOVE the RAW shenanigans.

The more the better.

All lawyers are Rules lawyers as well.

I just LOVE the RAW shenanigans.

The more the better.

Some people slam their plums in an oven door for fun too, but it's not a wise decision to cater for such an extreme minority, lol!

I think a soviet assault rifle designer summed it up nicely....

Making something complex is simple

Making something simple is complex.

I have to agree again with chucknuckle, john trenzer and dagonet.

If the game is good people will still play it and seek it out. I have a shelf full of 80s 'a4' box board games my friends and I play regulrly, i think the last supplement to 'dungeonquest' came out in 1988. I still until recently played BFG, i sold my fleets to by a PS4 but i still play mordheim and necromunda.

I mean i run a necromunda/rogue trader blog with over 320 followers so its still got players out there and 'rogue trader' stopped being supported as '1st edition 40k' about 1991.

Would the game stop being stocked in shops? Perhaps in its current format of 100 or so expansions and product codes but if FFG did a 'Original Triology' boxset with say four x wings, 2 y wings, 2 a wings and 4 tie fighters, 2 interceptors and a couple of bombers in it with a collated rulesset that as as you say a 'complete game' i cant see why that would not run for as long and as successfully as say 'risk' or 'zombies' or any other game that you get the 'game in the box'

You'd still get new players then.

I think the key is *how* you play, if you play with a reasonable sized network of friends then you're probably ok for life. If on the other hand you dont have gamer mates or a wife who will humour you , or kids old enough or just dont have the room to lay a game out then the influx of people to the FLGS is the lifeblood of your hobby.

But you know, there will come to a point where everything worth covering in the star wars universe (and its shrinking given the back shelving of the EU) will have been done (or perhaps everything the licence allows) and you then have the options of a V2 reboot, making an expansion for say ground combat, exploring the prequels or...... just saying 'my work here is done' and making something different.

I've been into this since the A wing wave and aware of it from the start and i have to say that I'm finding that there is becomming a bewildering amount of upgrades and combos to keep track on. It doesnt affect me too much as i play social games at my mates houses so people rarely try and pull a super combo blindside on you but if i were a tourny player it would probably be a lot of effort to keep up with all the 'speculation' and evaluate all the myriad builds i could face.

Some games just run for a while then dissapear, it just happens, enjoy em while you have em.

In essence, at its heart, X-Wing isn't complicated:

Pick a maneuver from a set list of possibilities for each

Execute that maneuver, by ship, in numerical order, perform an action where applicable

In numerical order, designate 1 target and execute an attack

There are some finer details in how an attack is handled, and what to do when certain things happen, but those hardly complicate the game.

The emergent gameplay is what comes from the different interactions and the different ships and pilots and upgrades, the added complexity.

But you can make it as complex or simple as you want. That is up to the players.

In essence, at its heart, X-Wing isn't complicated:

Pick a maneuver from a set list of possibilities for each

Execute that maneuver, by ship, in numerical order, perform an action where applicable

In numerical order, designate 1 target and execute an attack

And then you take upgrades and non-generic pilots and the REAL FUN BEGINS!

That fact should allow it to expand its longevity long past the time where new expansions will be released. There's great room for narrative play, that should not be underestimated.

In essence, at its heart, X-Wing isn't complicated:

Pick a maneuver from a set list of possibilities for each

Execute that maneuver, by ship, in numerical order, perform an action where applicable

In numerical order, designate 1 target and execute an attack

And then you take upgrades and non-generic pilots and the REAL FUN BEGINS!

But those upgrades really don't alter the base rules. They may alter the place of a specific ship within those rules, but the rules stay the same.

Dengar with his counterattack, Fel's Wrath with his not being destroyed until the end of the combat phase, and Corran with his double attack are the only real exceptions I can think of.

Even Tel(? the one who comes back after being destroyed) doesn't change the base rules. He just adds a personal rule for what happens after.

In essence, at its heart, X-Wing isn't complicated:

Pick a maneuver from a set list of possibilities for each

Execute that maneuver, by ship, in numerical order, perform an action where applicable

In numerical order, designate 1 target and execute an attack

And then you take upgrades and non-generic pilots and the REAL FUN BEGINS!

But those upgrades really don't alter the base rules. They may alter the place of a specific ship within those rules, but the rules stay the same.

Dengar with his counterattack, Fel's Wrath with his not being destroyed until the end of the combat phase, and Corran with his double attack are the only real exceptions I can think of.

Even Tel(? the one who comes back after being destroyed) doesn't change the base rules. He just adds a personal rule for what happens after.

But they actually do!

Each upgrade card is a thing that breaks the rules in a fun way.

Adv sensor says "nope, I want my action BEFORE the move"

PTL says "nope, I want another bar action, and a stress, mix and blend!"

Dauntess says "Okay, I bumped, big deal! ACTION TIME!"

Echo says "see that Decloak rules? Screw them, I like my 2 bank template!"

and so on

And that's great.

Narrative play and mission packs have been woefully ignored in preference to the 100/6 death match format.

I saw this damage 40k and warhammer back in the early 2000s when GW started focussing on tournament play more than anything else and you just ended up with 'indentical' marine armies of five guys in a razorback with a plasma gunner as it was the most efficient use of points.

So instead of this incredibly varied rich and diverse dystopian sci fi environment you got two lots of marines duking it out for no apparent reason other than they were hopefully painted different colours.

Its why personally i dont play 'rebel vs rebel' or 'imp vs imp' games as its not that star wars to me. Again its a difference in play style, some people want an immersive 'star wars' experience and others just want the 'mechanics' of playing the game and dont care if luke is the gunner on a falcon shooting down luke in their opponents xwing. Personally I dont really have an interest in playing those sort of games.

For me FFG would do well to invest in developing narrative play expansions, perhaps with minis for things we currently only have card counters for but more importantly CHANGING the emphasis of organised play. Not REPLACING it, keep 100/6 deathmatch tourneys but give the rest of us something thematic as an alternative.

I'm with Gadge (as usual mate) on this one. Playing Narrative over Tourney every single time (Tourney format 40k ruined 40k for me more than the prices ever did)

I do think that for a ground game, changing the mats and objective markers should be enough. You really don't need to do any more than that. I've played lots of orbital/ground games. I did once consider different effects of stress and ion and really... it's not required.

I think In terms of narrative campaigns etc, that could be something FLGS' could do with a little help from FFG.

FFG can hand out official "mission packs" and players can join one of the 3 factions. FLGS' can tally up scores. Something that mission format does which 100/ deathmatch doesn't - it forces different builds. Do you know how Sucky a two ship build is at defending a GR75 from a TIE Swarm? Corran is NOT ace at this.

In essence, at its heart, X-Wing isn't complicated:

Pick a maneuver from a set list of possibilities for each

Execute that maneuver, by ship, in numerical order, perform an action where applicable

In numerical order, designate 1 target and execute an attack

And then you take upgrades and non-generic pilots and the REAL FUN BEGINS!

But those upgrades really don't alter the base rules. They may alter the place of a specific ship within those rules, but the rules stay the same.

Dengar with his counterattack, Fel's Wrath with his not being destroyed until the end of the combat phase, and Corran with his double attack are the only real exceptions I can think of.

Even Tel(? the one who comes back after being destroyed) doesn't change the base rules. He just adds a personal rule for what happens after.

But they actually do!

Each upgrade card is a thing that breaks the rules in a fun way.

Nah, they bend them, for their specific ship. They add exceptions and there is a difference.

I agree that the added complexity is A Good Thing^tm, but that doesn't alter the fact that in essence it is a rather simple game.

And that was my point with the Kalashnikov quote.

Making a fun game that is simple and elegant is actually very hard.

Making a game with oodles of special rules, sub clauses and a 500 page manual with a cross referencing index you have to go to every time there is an odd situation is relatively easy

edit: Actually Shpagin said it who made the PPSH but i think he was talking about the AK at the time

“Complexity is simple, simplicity is difficult.”

With X-wings RAW and minimalistic FAQ's though, it's truly a feat of genius game engineering. Sure there are "patches" here and there, but nowhere near as specialruleiffic as certain games set 40k years in the future.

I dare say that's Why people like Gadge and myself old hammer. The base rules are there, with all those little addons, nothing else needs to be added - just for gods sake don't bother with strict rules.

Missions add so much more than a simple deathmatch. It gives focus to what you are doing and allows for specific builds for specific goals.

There's a reason online shooters offer more than just a simple kill'em all mode.