I was referring to Rebel Transport and Tantive releases before anything was developed for Imperials.

As Vanor pointed out, the Gozanti and Raider didn't exist at the time, but it still didn't mean they had to go ahead with two releases and new X-wing pilots.

That's my opinion at least.

I think that's looking for bias (or however you wish to word it) where there is none. The most likely reason is not some FFG execs twirling their mustaches at the thought of Imperial players crying, but rather the lack of canon Imperial ships in the 300 meter range. And X-wings were largely obsoleted with the release of the B-wing, so an X-wing pack-in with the transport probably seemed like a good idea at the time.

Should they have fixed an Imperial ship back then? Maybe. But I actually think the experience they've gained since then has actually paid off in the more recent expansions; consider that no one actually flies the X-wing pilots in Rebel Transport (really, the only card you see is R3-A2). Compare that to the pack-in TIE Advanced fixes in Raider, which brought back TIE Advanced in a huge way.

They are more popular

They have regen

They have a cheap & strong stress-dealer

Their top-tier lists are arguably more forgiving than Imperial top-tier lists

Personally I feel there's a slight Rebel-bias in the game, but that is what makes stomping rebels all the more fun for me.

They are more expensive to field

They tend to soak damage rather than avoid it

They have less movement/repositional ability

They are very vulnerable to stress...

There may be a slight Rebel bias, but they're still a well balanced faction.

I wonder what makes the OP assume they're overpowered?

Maybe the fact rebels have won every worlds since the first, most nationals and regionals and major jugglers stats show a clear rebel win percent. Which clearly shows rebels as a stronger faction.

I'm not saying it's as bad as it use to be with fat Han lists being utterly broken and dominant for two years but there is a slight rebel bias still.

That's just wrong Gungo. We have 46% of ships being rebel, so if they won 46% it would be totally balanced. And i don't even think we reach this percentage!

If you have more participants in a tournament, the chances of winning are higher. As simple as that!

Also, sorry to say it but if there is no imperial player capable of beating Paul Heaver, we will continue to see Rebel World champion(s). That has nothing to do with the faction though.

Also the Phantom was the broken ship, not Fat Han that's why the Phantom got nerfed and Large PWTs did not (until they played no role in the meta anyway when the large ship nerf came)

It was also the Phantom that created this whole Large PWT meta bubble. Before it came no one even played Falcons competitively!

Other than that, i have to agree with Gecko. Both factions have their strengths AND weaknesses. Regen and turrets for Rebels, higher PS aces, Agility and Arc-Dodging on imperial side.

Stress aplenty is available for both factions, you just need to play it!

Scum feels indeed in a weird place at the moment. They have some gimmicks but seem to lack the raw strengths of the 2 other factions! THAT is where the balance is not yet perfect if you ask me!

I am not claiming player skill doesn't matter. Poor players can choose rebel lists and still loose.

However the fact is undeniable the majority of worlds, national and regional results are won by rebel lists.

This was the on going joke for the last three years In every major juggler thread. People would count the rebel lists and/or fat turret lists who won and people like you continue to make excuses how those wins didn't matter.

It still doesn't change the fact rebels continue to dominate regardless of how much rhetoric you complain about the facts are rebels continue to win.

The phantom was nerfed as did the fat turrets that were also winning at the time which predominantly was fat Han and fat dash. Fat Cheri mostly disappeared from the meta when whisper was nerfed.

Deny it all you want however the last worlds was a rebel vs rebel finals. This has been the same story the last three years.

Maybe the fact rebels have won every worlds since the first, most nationals and regionals and major jugglers stats show a clear rebel win percent. Which clearly shows rebels as a stronger faction.

Really?

Here's Major Juggler's stats for nationals: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/178660-2015-nationals-results

Here are the winner counts:

Rebels: 3

Empire: 4

Scum: 6

Please check your definitions for one or more of the following words: "fact," "clear," and "win."

(I don't know why I keep getting into these discussions over and over)

I said the majority of worlds is won by rebels.... Fact

I said the majority of nationals is won by rebels... Fact (just because you only looked at 2015 doesn't make this true)

They are more popular

They have regen

They have a cheap & strong stress-dealer

Their top-tier lists are arguably more forgiving than Imperial top-tier lists

Personally I feel there's a slight Rebel-bias in the game, but that is what makes stomping rebels all the more fun for me.

They are more expensive to field

They tend to soak damage rather than avoid it

They have less movement/repositional ability

They are very vulnerable to stress...

There may be a slight Rebel bias, but they're still a well balanced faction.

I wonder what makes the OP assume they're overpowered?

Maybe the fact rebels have won every worlds since the first, most nationals and regionals and major jugglers stats show a clear rebel win percent. Which clearly shows rebels as a stronger faction.

I'm not saying it's as bad as it use to be with fat Han lists being utterly broken and dominant for two years but there is a slight rebel bias still.

Fat Han became popular as a counter Whisper though.

He's just listed the most current year available because the discussion is not about whether rebels were op in 2013, but where they stand now. Scum were the only losers in general at worlds. Both the imps and rebels had an evenly higher percentage of wins than their percentage of lists taken.

http://direman.com/direman/comic.php?comicID=1448

The term "OP" needs to be established before meaningful discourse. Personally, my answer is a resounding no. The balance is constantly shifting, and your personal meta environment determines the answer. If you're going to be completely pragmatic, the process should be to identify the key assets, from any of the three factions, that can disrupt your local meta. Those elements can "overpower" your local scene.

That said, I personally do feel that Rebels are fairly forgiving toward newer players. For competition, I've aligned Imperial (so TR8R doesn't yell in my head) because I find them to be freeing and suit my personal play style. However, I cut my teeth flying 4 X-Wings back in the day. And that's how I learned the basics of positioning, practical use of probabilities, and other fundamental tactics.

http://direman.com/direman/comic.php?comicID=1448

The term "OP" needs to be established before meaningful discourse. Personally, my answer is a resounding no. The balance is constantly shifting, and your personal meta environment determines the answer. If you're going to be completely pragmatic, the process should be to identify the key assets, from any of the three factions, that can disrupt your local meta. Those elements can "overpower" your local scene.

That said, I personally do feel that Rebels are fairly forgiving toward newer players. For competition, I've aligned Imperial (so TR8R doesn't yell in my head) because I find them to be freeing and suit my personal play style. However, I cut my teeth flying 4 X-Wings back in the day. And that's how I learned the basics of positioning, practical use of probabilities, and other fundamental tactics.

Move on up to Scum!

That's were the real challenge is these days!

I don't know, I seem to get my butt kicked with either faction. Rebels seem to be a bit more forgiving if you make positional mistakes, but, in general, Rebel ships also aren't as maneuverable as Imperial ships are. It comes down to play style. Imperial ships have an easier time getting on target, or getting behind opponents, while Rebel ships are a bit more durable. There are some scary builds for both sides (most of which require buying expensive Epic/huge ship sets), but that's the nature of the business.

There really wasn't much flip to that coin..... lol

One subset of results in a set of facts does not make your numbers accurate.

I don't even know what this means

[

I said the majority of nationals is won by rebels... Fact (just because you only looked at 2015 doesn't make this true)

Um, okay.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/110928-2014-nationals-results/

2014 Nationals

Rebels: 6

Empire: 7

Scum: Did not exist

Don't think we have 2013 nationals results.

If you're going to try to argue "facts" please back them up with, uh, facts.

Okay let me put it this way... let's say FFG only had time to develop one ship before Christmas 2016 and the counterpart ship would be released in 2017. Which would be first: Rebel or Imperial?

IMO they would almost certainly release a Rebel ship first. Or would they flip a coin?

I think they'd pick whatever ship would be cool.

(Actually, scratch that. Just to make your question invalid, I'm going to vote Scum!)

What I am saying is that Rebels get priority and more attention than Imperials (most likely due to the market's preference for that faction).

Where do you get the market's preference for Rebels? If anything, reading these forums makes me think the preference is largely (and quite vocally) for Imperials.

There really wasn't much flip to that coin..... lol

I think that was the joke.

What I am saying is that Rebels get priority and more attention than Imperials (most likely due to the market's preference for that faction).

Where do you get the market's preference for Rebels? If anything, reading these forums makes me think the preference is largely (and quite vocally) for Imperials.

Well, there clearly isn't any point in arguing further with you.

Okay. I guess you have way more invested in this than I do.

But you seem to be making the point that FFG would, on balance, release a Rebel expansion before its Imperial counterpart. However, FFG just announced Imperial Veterans which is not in response to a Rebel expansion; by your hypothesis, FFG would have released Rebel Veterans first.

Well, there clearly isn't any point in arguing further with you.

Okay. I guess you have way more invested in this than I do.

But you seem to be making the point that FFG would, on balance, release a Rebel expansion before its Imperial counterpart. However, FFG just announced Imperial Veterans which is not in response to a Rebel expansion; by your hypothesis, FFG would have released Rebel Veterans first.

Your logic and reason are not welcome here

Okay. I guess you have way more invested in this than I do.

If you say so? I mean, it's a pointless exercise to argue with someone who ignores counterpoints and is incapable of conceding anything.

If you're going to try to argue "facts" please back them up with, uh, facts.

But I guess you didn't bother quoting or acknowledging that bit...

As for your other point, about Rebel Veterans - that's true! Good point! Maybe FFG is changing their practice going forward! But it doesn't change what has already happened with the Transport and Tantive. And as I have already said, Y-wings got some attention already in the form of BTL-A4 titles, Bomb Loadouts, and EPT astromechs.

Even if we ignore R3A2 and C3PO, the Rebel Transport's release was FFG's first attempt at an improved X-wing and gave R2-D6 for the (still) suffering Y-wing. The Y-wing then indirectly received BTL-A4 and Bomb Loadout through Most Wanted.

Successful or not, at least there was some attention given to those ships.

The TIE Bomber though? Until Imperial Vets was announced I forgot that ship even existed.

If you want to continue believing that FFG doesn't prioritize Rebels over Imperials, then go ahead. I have nothing else to present to you.

I don't consider "Actually, scratch that. Just to make your question invalid, I'm going to vote Scum!" to be logic nor reasoning.

Neither do I. But then it wasn't in the post i quoted.....

If I may get this back on topic, he asked are the rebels OP. He admits to never playing, but has observed many games.

Now to answer the question: Before I got into X-Wing I watched a few games and was of the same opinion. So when I started, I played (and still do play) a lot of Rebel Aces. However, my first win was with Imperial. The only two Rebel wins I had was because the first one he told me what he was bringing so I could set up the perfect answer, however the next game against a different opponent I lost hard. The second one was the store tournament and I was 1-3, and the one win was against a newbie. And my losses, I lost every ship inside four turns of fighting without eliminating one enemy (Imperial) ship.

So in the end, they are more balanced than they appear. You just have to know to maximize the strengths and minimize weaknesses of your chosen faction.

If you say so? I mean, it's a pointless exercise to argue with someone who ignores counterpoints and is incapable of conceding anything.

If you're going to try to argue "facts" please back them up with, uh, facts.

That wasn't directed at you. You actually provided numbers, which is great! I apologize for not acknowledging the List Juggler numbers. I didn't say anything because I looked at it, went "aha" and continued. So I accept that point. (But I'll come back to that in a second.)

As for your other point, about Rebel Veterans - that's true! Good point! Maybe FFG is changing their practice going forward! But it doesn't change what has already happened with the Transport and Tantive. And as I have already said, Y-wings got some attention already in the form of BTL-A4 titles, Bomb Loadouts, and EPT astromechs.

But I could say likewise regarding the Interceptor, which got Royal Guard TIE in Imperial Aces and Autothrusters in Most Wanted Wave 6 (it also helps A-wings, but boy did it help Fel more than anyone else -- Chiraneau/Fel dominated Regionals for a good long time). Y-wings and Interceptors both got boosts in the meta, and I don't think one was stronger than the other, looking at the tail end of Regionals and going into Nationals.

If you want to continue believing that FFG doesn't prioritize Rebels over Imperials, then go ahead. I have nothing else to present to you.

All we both have at this point is conjecture. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors at FFG when they decide what to release next. (I mean, c'mon, no Assault Gunboat or Missile Boat?) I expect you don't either. I go with the simplest explanation: FFG comes up with something cool to put into the game, be it Rebel, Imperial, or Scum. I really don't think there's a Rebel-tilted agenda going on.

What we can do is make a prediction, which is what you sort of did in your hypothetical -- and we see that FFG doesn't always put the Rebel version of an expansion out first.

I don't consider "Actually, scratch that. Just to make your question invalid, I'm going to vote Scum!" to be logic nor reasoning.

I was trying to make a funny

(And honestly, Scum really could use an Aces pack.)

Regarding using List Juggler data: I was thinking about this one some more, and I don't think it conclusively tells us what the market wants in terms of factions. What we do know is: of the lists that were entered into tournaments that were entered into List Juggler, 46% were Rebel, 36% were Imperial, etc. The problem is that tournament play differs from casual play; I posit that in tournaments, people are more likely to fly a list that they think will win, and not necessarily of the faction they have a preference for. And if there is a prevailing perception that Rebels are stronger/more likely to do well in tournaments, you'll see more of them (the groupthink effect).

I'm not saying this is the only reason for the numbers. I'm saying that they're not conclusive enough for us to deduce what player preference really is. We have basically no data on casual/kitchen table games.

Edit: Most Wanted is not the name of Wave 6, yo

Fair on all points. We can agree that this is ultimately conjecture.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing FFG of anything. I have absolute faith in their fairness and decisions. I just feel like they at least have incentive to push Rebels before Imperials because I've always considered Rebels to be more popular.

You're right, that might not necessarily be the case; but I would honestly be surprised. The good guys in general are usually more popular if you look at things like World of Warcraft race distributions (always knew those would come in handy! Not really).

It's hard not to field BB8 after watching Episode 7.

I mean, half the Imperial ships have no shields at all.

I don't mean to pick, but statements like that are part of the issue, because it may seem that way, but it really isn't. There are 12 ships in the Imperial faction. Of those 12 ships 3 don't have shields.

That means 3/4th of the Imperial ships are shielded, not half. It just so happens that the most iconic ships are the ones without, the Tie Fighter, Tie Interceptor and Tie Bomber.

Again not trying to pick on you, but it seems quite often people's comments about this kind of thing is based on perceptions and not actual facts.

You're absolutely right. That was just my perception, because we see a lot of mini-swarms at my FLGS, so half the Imperial ships on the table don't have shields.. But I had been talking about a ship to ship basis, which means I was wrong.

Still, a noob like me is going to look at the stat lines of say, a K-Wing and a TIE. He's not realize he's going to be outnumbered 4 to 1, and everytime he spins the K-Wing's dial he going to be reminded of LoneStar's flying Winnebago.

The idea that the production of the Transport and CR-90 prior to the Raider and Gonzati is an example of FFGs Rebel bias is really just nonsensical.

Huge ships were a big risk for FFG. They had to design a new game type to accommodate them and new rules for them. Both products were more complex models then what came before and we're priced more then double any other X-wing product they had made.

At the time they decided to make huge ships both the Corvette and Transport were the only option available to them. Both in the literal sense that nothing else fit the scale, but also because both had screen time in the movie. They are the iconic options. If you are going to take the plunge and take the risk you are going to do so with the iconic options available to you in the hopes they help move some product irregardless of anything else. You couldn't have expected FFG to take the extra step of getting a ship custom designed for them by Disney without first the whole huge ship project being validated by the two available and recognizable options they had to begin with.

Half of their toys just belong to other factions, it's that simple.

You haven't even played the game yet and you're making assumptions about competitive viability?

I wasn't implying that FFG wants Rebels to be stronger, but instead that Rebels have advantages like prioritized releases or broader selection of competitive ships (which I would argue have indirectly made them slightly stronger). I don't believe OP was implying the former either.

The problem is the first statement is also true xD

True, yes.

But there's one thing you seem to have not seen.

The sole fact that powerplayers prefer the rebels already rings a bell.

Most tablertop championships tend to rate factions, races, codexes - everything

also depending on number of them taken.

When half of players came to championship with Tau allies in 40k it was a visible indication that GW f###ed up with balance. again.

And we have half of powergamers taking Rebels.

Having studied the mind of powergamer for quite a while I can say one simple thing: factional fanatism is nothing compared to taste of victory to the powergamer.

If S&V suddenly becomes a mind-defying meta-breaker we'll see them having 40-50% of gamers.