I've done a lot of roleplaying and the word 'powergamer' is very familiar to me...but in the context of a (competitive) miniatures game the term strikes me as odd. A lot of people want the most powerful squad, that fact reasonably follows from the game. Maybe some like this or that ship because of the theme but it's perfectly acceptable to go for the most powerful ships you can play effectively.

In the same vein, do we know Rebel players are powergamers because they choose Rebels, or do we know the Rebels are OP because they attract all the powergamers? There is some begging the question going on here.

Theme of a squad is the last thing you think about in a weird world of sportsmanship tabletop.

when we got a new codex in 40k it suddenly turns out that there were always lots of "fans of lore and miniatures"

that somehow simply went to the new powerhouse the moment it became available.

War might change, but powerplayers don't. If rebels counter the meta better, or form the meta themselves (like PWTs did)

why bother with something else? Rebel all the way!

War, war never changes.

Again, whether or not they wanted to just generate money doesn't mean Rebels didn't have access to those very good cards.

But you're declaring a marked preference for one faction over the other, when there is none. They didn't release the CR-90 and GR-75 to make the Rebels stronger. They did it to make money, so if there's any bias on FFG's part it's towards profit.

There is no question in my mind at all, that if the Raider existed prior to X-Wing being started, say it was in RotJ. That FFG would of released it around the same time they did the CR-90. I think they would of put the CR-90 out first, but the Raider would of come second. It would of also come with the x1 title, ATC and the Emperor, which actually gives it more power cards then the CR-90 has.

Most of us have felt that Epic was only half a game until the Raider came out, and that actually impacted the sale of the CR-90. It would've sold better if the Raider had been released sooner.

So no I disagree completely, what you call bias was simply marketing of the product they could produce at that time.

but instead that Rebels have advantages like prioritized releases or broader selection of competitive ships

I'd again disagree with that. Imperial Aces came out first, and Imperial Veterans will as well. I'm not sure that the rebels really even have a broader selection of competitive ships now. Some Int's are quite good, the Tie Advanced is going to be big this season. The Defender will be huge after Vets comes out... the VT-49 is good, Phantoms are still good.

Just because the Rebels had an advantage at one point doesn't mean it's going to stay that way.

Where do you get the market's preference for Rebels? If anything, reading these forums makes me think the preference is largely (and quite vocally) for Imperials.

I was contemplating this last night lifting weights... I think that if you look at the X-Wing community as a whole, I'd say between 65-75% of us play 2 or more factions and could consider ourselves 'X-Wing players' rather than Imperial or Rebel players.

Of the people who play a single faction exclusively I'd say most of them play Imperials. But at a tournament setting, most of those people who play 2+ factions will play Rebels.

So you get the % that zerotc posted, but around here it seems like Imperial only is the majority.

As for your other point, about Rebel Veterans - that's true! Good point! Maybe FFG is changing their practice going forward!

Again this seems to be more perception than reality. The Imperial Aces pack was announced on Sept 16th 2013, and released on March 14th 2014. The Rebel Aces pack wasn't announced until March 18th, 4 days after Imp Aces was released, and it took a long time for Imp Aces to actually get to stores.

Again, whether or not they wanted to just generate money doesn't mean Rebels didn't have access to those very good cards.

But you're declaring a marked preference for one faction over the other, when there is none. They didn't release the CR-90 and GR-75 to make the Rebels stronger. They did it to make money, so if there's any bias on FFG's part it's towards profit.

There is no question in my mind at all, that if the Raider existed prior to X-Wing being started, say it was in RotJ. That FFG would of released it around the same time they did the CR-90. I think they would of put the CR-90 out first, but the Raider would of come second. It would of also come with the x1 title, ATC and the Emperor, which actually gives it more power cards then the CR-90 has.

I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk and only pointing this out because it was used so frequently, but it's "would have" or "would've" - not "would of"

And for the millionth time...

zerotc, on 21 Jan 2016 - 5:06 PM, said:

I wasn't implying that FFG wants Rebels to be stronger, but instead that Rebels have advantages like prioritized releases or broader selection of competitive ships (which I would argue have indirectly made them slightly stronger). I don't believe OP was implying the former either.

So no, I am not saying that FFG is biased towards making Rebels better. What I'm saying is that Rebels are likely prioritized.

Imperial Vets is coming out "first", but this is the first TIE Bomber fix we've seen. The Y-wing was released on the same wave and look how many attempted fixes it's received. Rebel Transport astromechs, BTL-A4, Bomb Loadout etc. Do you think the Y-wing is suffering as much as the TIE Bomber? As Frank Brooks pointed out at 2015 Worlds, the Defender and Bomber were some of the only ships that were absent at Worlds and thus needed to be fixed. They're last on the to-do list not first.

The X-wing received at least some attention from Transport astromechs and pilots. And yet again, TIE Advanced which was released on the same wave only got some recently.

True about Imperial Aces vs Rebel Aces. That's a fair point, but that gap is still much smaller compared to say C3PO vs Palpatine. Heaver was using R2D2 & C3PO crews at Worlds before the Raider was even announced.

I don't care about the epic ships themselves. They have no bearing on X-wing meta. But I care about Worlds-level upgrades that were not released unilaterally across both factions.

Honestly, the easiest way would have been to include a TIE Adv fix and Emperor in the Tantive. That sounds ridiculous, but it would have been fair. Then when the Raider comes out, include some X-wing fix and Yoda or Obiwan. IDK, I'm just talking out of my arse at this point.

I was contemplating this last night lifting weights... I think that if you look at the X-Wing community as a whole, I'd say between 65-75% of us play 2 or more factions and could consider ourselves 'X-Wing players' rather than Imperial or Rebel players.

Of the people who play a single faction exclusively I'd say most of them play Imperials. But at a tournament setting, most of those people who play 2+ factions will play Rebels.

So you get the % that zerotc posted, but around here it seems like Imperial only is the majority.

As for your other point, about Rebel Veterans - that's true! Good point! Maybe FFG is changing their practice going forward!

Again this seems to be more perception than reality. The Imperial Aces pack was announced on Sept 16th 2013, and released on March 14th 2014. The Rebel Aces pack wasn't announced until March 18th, 4 days after Imp Aces was released, and it took a long time for Imp Aces to actually get to stores.

Sorry, but how are any of your stats not more perception than reality? If you don't want to accept List Juggler stats, then fine. But going on and pulling numbers out of thin air to say the opposite is silly.

If FFG only had time to release one ship before Christmas 2016 and the other ship in 2017, do you think FFG would prioritize the Rebel or Imperial one?

I think that if such a situation was actually possible, then yes they'd release a Rebel ship. But theoretical questions like that seldom prove anything because they're rather far fetched.

FFG as you have pointed out is interested in balanced factions, because balanced factions help sell the game. But in theory if everything was equal they'd sell to the larger market share.

What I'm saying is that Rebels are likely prioritized.

And I'd agree that in theory if none of the sides needs anything they'd aim for the larger market share.

The Y-wing was released on the same wave and look how many attempted fixes it's received.

That depends on if you consider an upgrade that happens to be useful for a ship to be a fix or not. They've released nothing directly for the Rebel Y-Wing, but there have been a number of upgrades that are useful on it. But those all came from packages that were not marketed towards the Rebel Y-Wing itself.

I know that may seem like an argument of pure semantics, but your point seems to be based on intent and I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the intent isn't nearly as strong as you think.

They're last on the to-do list not first.

I don't know how much stock you can put in what order he listed things. At the time he knew full well that Imperial Veterans was coming so he may of mentioned it last because in his mind it was a done deal.

True about Imperial Aces vs Rebel Aces. That's a fair point, but that gap is still much smaller compared to say C3PO vs Palpatine.

Which proves nothing in of itself. The only way that could be used for evidence of anything is if we knew when they started actually working on the Raider, and how long it took for LFL to approve the model. I'd be surprised if they hadn't started working on it shortly after they started the CR-90 and it simply took that long for the model to finally get approved.

FFG can not be blamed for the gap in power cards, between the CR-90 and the Raider if their hands are tied by LFL. Then there's the release schedule to consider, and manufacturing output. They're not going to sit on product, but they also have to be careful about flooding the market with new expansions. So it's not like they can release the Raider whenever they wish. They have to wait until they have the production capacity and a market opening.

That sounds ridiculous, but it would have been fair.

It would also mean Imperial players would had to have spend $100 on a ship they absolutely didn't want... That would of been a bigger marketing disaster then the Raider was, which upset a number of people who didn't want to spend that much money on a ship they may not use.

I don't completely disagree with you, but you seem to be assigning motives that IMO don't exist. Is FFG going to market products based on what they think will sell best? Sure that's natural. Does that mean that all else being equal you'll see Rebel stuff first? I'd say yes. But clearly when all else is not equal they produce product on what's best for the game as a whole.

Which to me is the most fair thing we can expect.

If you don't want to accept List Juggler stats, then fine. But going on and pulling numbers out of thin air to say the opposite is silly.

I think you misunderstand, or I wasn't clear. I don't refute the List Juggler stats. That actually what I'd assumed. That if you look at tournament games as a whole, the larger % would be Rebels.

What I was saying was that I expect most people play 2+ factions. But of that set of people, the majority of them would play Rebels at a tournament. So between the Rebel only players and the 2+ faction players who play Rebels at tournaments the majority of players as a whole play rebels in that situation.

But if you look at the set of people play a single faction exclusively I'd say the majority of those players are Imperial only.

<double post>

I think you misunderstand, or I wasn't clear. I don't refute the List Juggler stats. That actually what I'd assumed. That if you look at tournament games as a whole, the larger % would be Rebels.

What I was saying was that I expect most people play 2+ factions. But of that set of people, the majority of them would play Rebels at a tournament. So between the Rebel only players and the 2+ faction players who play Rebels at tournaments the majority of players as a whole play rebels in that situation.

But if you look at the set of people play a single faction exclusively I'd say the majority of those players are Imperial only.

Maybe! I could see your last point being the case, but Rebel-only players certainly exist as well. I get the feeling as well that there are probably more Imperial-only players, but I don't think it would be enough to outbalance a relative ~30% gap.

Then we agree.

I think so yes, we by and large agree.

But when prioritizing fixes, they seem to have Rebels in mind first.

History seems to suggest otherwise with Imperial Aces and Vets coming out first. Imp Aces was the first real 'fix' pack. It did however have the misfortune of not being quite as good as most people had hoped.

Maybe! I could see your last point being the case, but Rebel-only players certainly exist as well.

Yes, I see I'm still not being clear, so let me try again. If it still doesn't make sense perhaps we could take it to PM's. I'm basing this on what I see here, and have seen in tournaments and the like. I'm not claiming these %'s are exact but I think they're likely close.

Let's say that 75% of all players do not collect or play a single faction exclusively. Of that set, let's call them X-Wingers, at a tournament I'd guess that 40-50% of them play Rebels, with 20-30% playing Imperials and the rest playing S&V.

Of the other 25% the ones that exclusively play a single faction we'll call them Faction players, I'd guess that 60% or so chose Imperials. With 20-30% being Rebels and the rest being S&V.

So if you were to add it all together, the majority of players will pick Rebels at a tournament, but a lot of them don't consider themselves Rebels. However that's not true of Imperial favored players so that's why places like this can lead people to believe Imperials are more popular.

I haven't even played the game yet, but would that assumption be correct? They seem to have many more useful ships, and a huge variety of builds to take advantage of. Not to mention that they're bulkier in general, and less likely to die from some unlucky rolls. I understand that many of the imperial ships are meant to be more mobile, but being able to be wrecked by a few bad dice rolls seems like an unnecessarily large trade-off.

I really don't know what to think of the Scum ships. I know they're a recent expansion faction, but they don't seem to have any mechanics that stick out. From the quick glance I gave them, they seem like worse Rebels.

It's also an incredibly small sample size, but I've watched a few games between casual and semi-competitive players at my game shop, and I've never seen any of them play anything but Rebel ships.

Is any of this correct at all?

No. Take a breath.

Pointe the Firste: The Imperials have numbers on their side, and you can gear up TIEs to pull of some pretty wicked combinations (especially with the TIE Advanced fix from the Raider box). They can chop away Rebs pretty handily with massed fire and some clever piloting.

Pointe the Seconde: Those competitive players are just that. They're going to be better than casuals like you or I. Ignore it. Learn fun tricks from them, but don't obsess about anything. Some of the best games I've ever played have just been using basic ships with few to no cards, just to get the most fun for 100pts/side.

In the end, you're the one who determines whether you enjoy it or not, so play the game to have fun. That's the most important thing.

Unless, you know, you're doing it for money.

They are more popular

They have regen

They have a cheap & strong stress-dealer

Their top-tier lists are arguably more forgiving than Imperial top-tier lists

Personally I feel there's a slight Rebel-bias in the game, but that is what makes stomping rebels all the more fun for me.

They are more expensive to field

They tend to soak damage rather than avoid it

They have less movement/repositional ability

They are very vulnerable to stress...

There may be a slight Rebel bias, but they're still a well balanced faction.

I wonder what makes the OP assume they're overpowered?

Maybe the fact rebels have won every worlds since the first, most nationals and regionals and major jugglers stats show a clear rebel win percent. Which clearly shows rebels as a stronger faction.

I'm not saying it's as bad as it use to be with fat Han lists being utterly broken and dominant for two years but there is a slight rebel bias still.

That's just wrong Gungo. We have 46% of ships being rebel, so if they won 46% it would be totally balanced. And i don't even think we reach this percentage!

If you have more participants in a tournament, the chances of winning are higher. As simple as that!

Also, sorry to say it but if there is no imperial player capable of beating Paul Heaver, we will continue to see Rebel World champion(s). That has nothing to do with the faction though.

Also the Phantom was the broken ship, not Fat Han that's why the Phantom got nerfed and Large PWTs did not (until they played no role in the meta anyway when the large ship nerf came)

It was also the Phantom that created this whole Large PWT meta bubble. Before it came no one even played Falcons competitively!

Other than that, i have to agree with Gecko. Both factions have their strengths AND weaknesses. Regen and turrets for Rebels, higher PS aces, Agility and Arc-Dodging on imperial side.

Stress aplenty is available for both factions, you just need to play it!

Scum feels indeed in a weird place at the moment. They have some gimmicks but seem to lack the raw strengths of the 2 other factions! THAT is where the balance is not yet perfect if you ask me!

So you quickly dismiss that rebels won the majority of tournaments because they are also the most popular faction. Does this also not support the fact the majority of people play rebels because they feel they are the stronger lists. Yes it does.

I am not claiming player skill doesn't matter. Poor players can choose rebel lists and still loose.

However the fact is undeniable the majority of worlds, national and regional results are won by rebel lists.

This was the on going joke for the last three years In every major juggler thread. People would count the rebel lists and/or fat turret lists who won and people like you continue to make excuses how those wins didn't matter.

It still doesn't change the fact rebels continue to dominate regardless of how much rhetoric you complain about the facts are rebels continue to win.

The phantom was nerfed as did the fat turrets that were also winning at the time which predominantly was fat Han and fat dash. Fat Cheri mostly disappeared from the meta when whisper was nerfed.

Deny it all you want however the last worlds was a rebel vs rebel finals. This has been the same story the last three years.

As for the reasons to that, people could very well play more Rebels because they quite simply like them more from lore, ship design or for whatever reasons. You are purely assuming and speculating here.

If we look at 2015 regionals regionals we have:

Faction breakdown

Rebel Wins: 13

Imperial Wins: 10

Scum and Villainy 6

Which again is pretty much exactly proportional. Rounded, Rebels win 45% Imps 34%, Scum 21%.

This is totally in line with the total number of lists played on Listjuggler. Where we have 46% Rebels ships, 36% Imps and 17% Scum.

Do you understand what that means? This is as close to a perfectly balnced game as we can statistically get!

This means Rebels win exactly as many tournaments as they should win based on participation, which also completely defeats your argument that peope play more Rebels because they are better! They are not better or they would win 55 or 60% of tournaments.

And if we assume that these players are totally competitive, they would also have made the same calculation as me, and deduced that Rebels are not better. So they would not have any reason but personal preference to play Rebels at tournaments!!!

For Worlds, statistically Rebels should have won 2, Empire 1 and Scum 0 if we look at the participation and the fact Scum only participated once.

But these tournaments are such a small sample that coincidence and sheer luck/misfortune can not be eliminated as a factor.

So to say it bluntly, Worlds is not significant enough as a sample in order to make statements like "Rebels are OP"

On another note, The Phantom nerf:

It came when the Phantom was at the top of its tournament carreer. And it was an aimed nerf (and very deserved in my opinion)

The MoV nerf for large ships was neither targeted at Fat Han, nor did it come when he was at the top of the meta. It was targeted at all large ships in order to end the 2-ship meta.

Fat Han never got nerfed directly, and that indicates you that with this ship, as opposed to the Phantom there was not much wrong... Or we would have seen a C3PO or Falcon nerf rather than one that mainly hit Brobots

I'm not sure if the Phantom nerf was deserved. It didn't win a World's tournament at its peak power and it is countered by PWTs. I got the feeling that FFG was hoping by nerfing the Phantom there wouldn't be so many Fat Falcon ships at major events. That didn't stop them from reigning until the MOV change.

I'm not sure if the Phantom nerf was deserved. It didn't win a World's tournament at its peak power and it is countered by PWTs. I got the feeling that FFG was hoping by nerfing the Phantom there wouldn't be so many Fat Falcon ships at major events. That didn't stop them from reigning until the MOV change.

Spot on everyone said "we only take fat turrets to counter phantoms" ffg believed them, then post nerf fatties stuck around.

Obesity would of set in post wave four regardless phantom or no.

I'm not sure if the Phantom nerf was deserved. It didn't win a World's tournament at its peak power and it is countered by PWTs. I got the feeling that FFG was hoping by nerfing the Phantom there wouldn't be so many Fat Falcon ships at major events. That didn't stop them from reigning until the MOV change.

Spot on everyone said "we only take fat turrets to counter phantoms" ffg believed them, then post nerf fatties stuck around.

Obesity would of set in post wave four regardless phantom or no.

Lol

same bantacrap as with acewing

Whisper ate everything that's not PS8+

whisper got a taste of nerfbat, but habits didn't change