Nah, I'm with the camp that forcing the Brace is almost always the goal

seems like a narrow way to look at things.

Oh?

>Redirects are much weaker than Brace.

>Squadrons might draw some Redirects, and very rarely the Brace if Avenger hasn't activated yet.

>A Demolisher will 9/10 draw the Brace.

Therefore, the Demolisher is much better at drawing the most powerful defensive ability in the game so the Avenger can fire for full effect. Even more so with XI7s.

A fairly narrow answer? Yes. But sometimes narrow is exactly what you need for a good solution.

Redirects can mitigate far more damage to the hull than Brace unless the attacker is using XI-7 Turbolasers.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this.

Can you break down your thought process here? My brain can't fathom what you're trying to say.

Lyraeus my man, you are definitely on to something with this idea

I flew my first Star Destroyer today (ISD I variant with Devastator) and I came to realize that while many (and I previously) thought that I variants of either the VSD or the ISD were more efficient as carriers due to their short range, after that game I actually think that this is the other way around since that game.

Actually, to mitigate my statement, I think that regardless of the number of the variant, both ISD and VSD should be played as both a ship-to-ship and carrier ships. But, I now feel that the I variants should focus more on ship to ship through Navigate (because they usually need that extra yaw to bring their weapons to bear, especially on a circling fleet) and though Engineering (because they're more susceptible to being double arced being at such close range) and yet be able to activate the squadrons when needed, and the II variants should focus on squadrons because they'll require less Navigate Commands to put in position (due to longer range) and will be a tad less likely to get double arced (because at medium range the perimeter of each arc is much larger, allowing to fit more of the base within a single arc) so they'll need less Engineering.

I really think you're on to something with the Avenger managing a Bomber Wing. Even if we're not talking about Firesprays or Rhymer, just throwing 4 black dice is throwing 4 damage at a facing. While he might not Brace for most of them, he'll either take them on the facing or redirect, and in this case both work at your advantage :

1) He doesn't redirect to keep it for your salvo, great he has 4 less shields to tank with so its redirect will be 4 damage less efficient. With an average of 6 damage from the front arc at medium range, he'll have to redirect 3 (after he kicked the Brace), leaving 2 hull zones depleted of shields.

2) He redirects a few : he can't redirect anymore so you're still pushing damage through to the hull.

So, yeah, you've got a good idea here

Good analysis. I guess the only thing I would argue with is that this approach would work fine Imperial vs Imperial, or against an MC80, as getting your ISD into firing position is fairly straight forward. Timing the squadron commands may be the big challenge against faster rebels unless you take a command dial upgrade.

The other thing is does Avenger obviate a lot of the other standard upgrades? If your approach is to exhaust tokens through bombers, or force him to keep them "green", does that reduce the need to take the otherwise standard Xi7s?

Nah, I'm with the camp that forcing the Brace is almost always the goal

seems like a narrow way to look at things.

Oh?

>Redirects are much weaker than Brace.

>Squadrons might draw some Redirects, and very rarely the Brace if Avenger hasn't activated yet.

>A Demolisher will 9/10 draw the Brace.

Therefore, the Demolisher is much better at drawing the most powerful defensive ability in the game so the Avenger can fire for full effect. Even more so with XI7s.

A fairly narrow answer? Yes. But sometimes narrow is exactly what you need for a good solution.

Redirects can mitigate far more damage to the hull than Brace unless the attacker is using XI-7 Turbolasers.

Had this discussion ad nauseum with Tvayumat, comparing the two (specifically on the Raider vs the CR90), and came away with the conclusion that it's very situational which is better.

- The CR90's redirect means it's one-shottable with 8 damage; the Raider's brace means it takes 12.

- The CR90 can weather 2x 3-damage shots into the same hull zone without taking a hull damage (and therefore a crit)... as long as that hull zone is the front. The Raider can only withstand 2x2 before taking hull... but doing so doesn't weaken other zones, and it doesn't matter which zone.

- The CR90's redirect is still effective at mitigating single shots from squadrons; the Raider's brace does nothing for 1-damage shots.

- The CR90's redirect can be almost completely negated by XI7. There is no such upgrade for attacking brace that is not equally effective against redirect (IO, Home One). HTT vs brace isn't even in the same league as XI7 vs redirect, especially against the corvettes.

This is pretty specific to the CR90 vs Raider, but illustrates the fact that it's pretty hard to say one is better than the other. But generally speaking, brace is better over the long term, redirect is better for staying alive short term... in the absence of ridiculously overpowered hard-counter upgrade cards in the meta.

Considering how he flat out said Redirect is better than Brace, in a thread where it talks about getting the best use out of the Avenger title, which is a title on the ISD, which would automatically imply that the ISD is shooting at a target, hopefully after defense options are exhausted (hence why we're talking about the title), with or without upgrades, if you want Redirect over Brace as the defender, then you're, well.. special.

This is literally elementary math, possibly even earlier.

I would disagree with that last statement as well. If you take a massive salvo and suffer a good eight damage, a redirect even on an MC80 or ISD is going to strip all of the shields from two arcs, no hull damage. A Brace will drop that to four damage and strip the shields from one arc, no hull damage.

There are definitely times where a Redirect will be better than a Brace (as stated before, against Bombers), but there is no way that a Redirect can mitigate way more damage.

I would also say, though, that I've been toying with two Avenger lists. One runs two OLP Raiders, the other a Demolisher and an OLP Raider. In both situations the Avenger has Gunnery Teams with the thought that you can strip defense tokens with Demolisher on one ship and OLP another ship with the Raider, then unload into both with the ISD.

I would disagree with that last statement as well. If you take a massive salvo and suffer a good eight damage, a redirect even on an MC80 or ISD is going to strip all of the shields from two arcs, no hull damage. A Brace will drop that to four damage and strip the shields from one arc, no hull damage.

There are definitely times where a Redirect will be better than a Brace (as stated before, against Bombers), but there is no way that a Redirect can mitigate way more damage.

I would also say, though, that I've been toying with two Avenger lists. One runs two OLP Raiders, the other a Demolisher and an OLP Raider. In both situations the Avenger has Gunnery Teams with the thought that you can strip defense tokens with Demolisher on one ship and OLP another ship with the Raider, then unload into both with the ISD.

How dare you use math and logic?

Considering how he flat out said Redirect is better than Brace, in a thread where it talks about getting the best use out of the Avenger title, which is a title on the ISD, which would automatically imply that the ISD is shooting at a target, hopefully after defense options are exhausted (hence why we're talking about the title), with or without upgrades, if you want Redirect over Brace as the defender, then you're, well.. special.

This is literally elementary math, possibly even earlier.

You would be right about the ISD thing, if he weren't specifically responding to

Nah, I'm with the camp that forcing the Brace is almost always the goal

Which is not necessarily true. More often than not, and given the existence of XI7's, yes, you're worried about negating the brace. But you're not always worried about forcing the brace. If you're going for dealing damage with squadrons, redirects are way more effective than braces, especially on ships with two of them.

There are definitely times where a Redirect will be better than a Brace (as stated before, against Bombers), but there is no way that a Redirect can mitigate way more damage.

Indisputable, given that redirect mitigates zero damage. But he didn't say it mitigates damage, he said it mitigates hull damage. Which yes, sometimes it does, and better than brace.

For clarity, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here. I definitely agree that usually you're after the brace, particularly in the context of the big ass Avenger shots this thread is about (also applicable in the context of the Ackbar lists that I see you run a lot, HERO). But you can't necessarily just say that brace is the best defense token period, because there are also lots of occasions where the redirect is far more valuable. Against Yavaris B-wings, for example, redirect will keep those blue-blacks off your hull for much longer than braces will.

Of course, but the thread is about how to best use Avenger, and I believe its when Brace is exhausted.

Good analysis. I guess the only thing I would argue with is that this approach would work fine Imperial vs Imperial, or against an MC80, as getting your ISD into firing position is fairly straight forward. Timing the squadron commands may be the big challenge against faster rebels unless you take a command dial upgrade.

The other thing is does Avenger obviate a lot of the other standard upgrades? If your approach is to exhaust tokens through bombers, or force him to keep them "green", does that reduce the need to take the otherwise standard Xi7s?

So, to answer your last sentence first, I'm not super sure that XI7s are that worth it on Imperial ships. To me, XI7 are most efficient when the ships in your fleet don't have the "oomph" to afford to allow the opponent to use the Redirect. Let's take a Neb B with Salvation for example and a CF command : it throws 4 damage on average from its front hull zone, which the opponent can brace then redirect for a single damage on the defending hull zone and a single damage elsewhere. If the opponent can't brace, you're throwing 2 damage on each facing which is okay, but not really what you want against Imperial ships : their hull is tough enough that you're wasting time blowing the shields up.

On the other hand throwing 4 damage with XI7 means that one hull zone is likely to be completely stripped down, that you can then target with Bombers or other small ships with access to accuracies. Now, if we take an ISD 2 for example, with 6 damage per average throw at optimal range : if the Rebel can't brace and without XI7 (assumign we're talking about an AFMK2 here), he'll use his redirect to spread all 6 damage around and you still won't get to the hull, while he'll still have 1 on each facing (3 redirected on the front, 3 taken on the side).

With XI7, assuming he can't brace, he'll take 1 damage to another hull zone, then 3 damage on his shield, then 2 damage on the hull.

We have 2 issues here imho : because Rebels rely on their shields and positioning, they're actually quite happy that they have some more shields going on. Either they have a Nav command or an Engineering Command so that they can either show you their next facing or move their shields around with an engineering command, and you'll be at the same starting position. Next, because ships that are likely to end up within blue range usually have ECM, you're unlikely to cancel the brace, meaning that the Rebel will still have more shields going on. Coming from a Rebel perspective, what I hate most is to have multiple shield facings down to 0 rather than damage on the hull, because I can't use my natural agility and cheap shield transfer and repair to actually have them where it matters.

More importantly, with the Empire, I want to double arc (once again this is coming from a newbie perspective), because each of my attack has the chance to expend the enemy's defense tokens, and compared to Rebels that can field multiple ships, double arcing is the best way to increase your number of attacks.

Now, the problem with ISD is that at close range you're likely to double arc, but I found it unlikely that you'll be able to target the same hull zone with your 2 shots, especially when you're in black range and especially when ships get big. So, in that sense, XI7 are much less useful because you'll be firing at 2 different hull zones anyways.

So, that's my general logic with the Empire and why I find XI7s less interesting on bigger ships I'm perhaps wrong in that analysis and this is by no means a diss on XI7s with large ships.

_____

Definitely agree with you that timing the squadron commands right is harder, which is why I would argue that I variants of the classes, which require more Nav an Engineering, are best managing a squadron wing that is more utility than effective damage (TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, to an extent TIE Advanced), while the II variants are best when managing Bombers due to having less trouble getting the enemy ships into range and so needing less Navigate Commands.

But, which is why we have stuff like Wing Commander and the Liaisons To test that theory, tonight I have an initiation game at 300 points, where I'll field 2 VSDs with Tarkin : a VSD 1 with Weapons Liaison that will manage a Fighter Screen (so mainly using Navigate and Engineering until I find more appropriate to throw the Fighters) and a VSD 2 with Defense Liaison managing a Bomber Wing (so mainly squadron commands until I really need a Nav or Engineering).

EDIT : Giving a tad more thought about the Fighter Wings, I think that it's even easier than we thought due to the Imperial Fighters having a speed advantage over the Rebels. So, for any Fighter/Interceptor swarm that needs to be managed, the general position of the Rebel fighters is usually predictible due to their lower speeds, meaning that you can pace yourself and wait up.

Huh. . . I go to bed being praised for my ingenuity and I wake up being accused of stating something to the effect that redirects are always better than a brace (something I know is not true 9.5 times out of 10).

Handeling the squadron command is easy. It is why I put Wing Commander on my Avenger. That way I have the flexibility to decide if I need to use the squadrons or not.

As for trying to force the brace, I find it is not really needed. Think on it, your first attack with an accuracy (from the not Avenger ship that can accuracy. . Hmmmm glad 2 with sensor teams. . . Hmmm) will force the ECM's to be used. After that you will almost certainly get an accuracy with Avenger.

That's not the point though, the point is getting the best use out of the Avenger. And that would be when it shoots at an exhausted brace ship, with XI7s. That's how you maximize the damage on a ship that's built to do damage. That, at the end of the day, is how to get the best use out of Avenger.

Therefore, you have to look at ways to get the person to use the Brace. I already told you what I think is the best method to getting your opponent to use the Brace (Demolisher).

I don't even know at this point why Redirects are even in the equation. It's a non-factor as we're strictly talking about getting the best use out of the Avenger. Anything else is simply misleading to the central discussion.

I am not sure that this thread is about the "best" way to do things. I am pretty sure this is about "alternative ways" to use Avenger ^_~

I am not sure that this thread is about the "best" way to do things. I am pretty sure this is about "alternative ways" to use Avenger ^_~

I guess..

I'm always looking for what is most optimal and points effective. Gotta min that max. I swear it's all the psychoconditioning from playing broke ass GW games.

I am not sure that this thread is about the "best" way to do things. I am pretty sure this is about "alternative ways" to use Avenger ^_~

I guess..

I'm always looking for what is most optimal and points effective. Gotta min that max. I swear it's all the psychoconditioning from playing broke ass GW games.

That's not the point though, the point is getting the best use out of the Avenger. And that would be when it shoots at an exhausted brace ship, with XI7s. That's how you maximize the damage on a ship that's built to do damage. That, at the end of the day, is how to get the best use out of Avenger.

Therefore, you have to look at ways to get the person to use the Brace. I already told you what I think is the best method to getting your opponent to use the Brace (Demolisher).

I don't even know at this point why Redirects are even in the equation. It's a non-factor as we're strictly talking about getting the best use out of the Avenger. Anything else is simply misleading to the central discussion.

I would disagree. The "best" way to use Avenger is against a ship with all of their tokens exhausted. If you can't exhaust all of them, then I woulda agree that XI-7's want an exhausted Brace. But hitting your target with OLP ahead of time means that your opponent can do nothing.

That's not the point though, the point is getting the best use out of the Avenger. And that would be when it shoots at an exhausted brace ship, with XI7s. That's how you maximize the damage on a ship that's built to do damage. That, at the end of the day, is how to get the best use out of Avenger.

Therefore, you have to look at ways to get the person to use the Brace. I already told you what I think is the best method to getting your opponent to use the Brace (Demolisher).

I don't even know at this point why Redirects are even in the equation. It's a non-factor as we're strictly talking about getting the best use out of the Avenger. Anything else is simply misleading to the central discussion.

I would disagree. The "best" way to use Avenger is against a ship with all of their tokens exhausted. If you can't exhaust all of them, then I woulda agree that XI-7's want an exhausted Brace. But hitting your target with OLP ahead of time means that your opponent can do nothing.

Yea. . . Sounds expensive, kinda a one trick pony on the activation side of things, and there are just cheaper and easier ways.

Im going to experiment avenger isd2 with intel officer and nk-7.

This way i can intel any green defence tokens and/or force a discard for the ones prevented by avenger

A Raider or two with OLP and Screed could take care of that. Ships with a Brace don't tend to have multiple Evade tokens, so if you roll a single accuracy on three dice, you can sac one of the remaining dice to flip a crit and lock out the evade.

I do like the idea of Intel Officer, but it still allows them to use it the once, which can give that ship one more round to punish you.

A Raider or two with OLP and Screed could take care of that. Ships with a Brace don't tend to have multiple Evade tokens, so if you roll a single accuracy on three dice, you can sac one of the remaining dice to flip a crit and lock out the evade.

I do like the idea of Intel Officer, but it still allows them to use it the once, which can give that ship one more round to punish you.

Another take on the Avenger could be to trick the opponent into thinking he beat its effect in order to strip shields down, much like Dodonna's Pride. Let's take a barebones ISD 2 with the Avenger title only for example's sake, and you're aiming to double arc on a medium or large ship :

1) You start firing with the front hull zone, which should net 6 to 7 hits (let's also assume that we're firing at something that has got ECM). Braced down to 3, probably redirected. Then you fire with the side hull zone with 3 damage on average and target the redirect that hasn't been spent (the enemy ship will probably have used ECM to trigger his Brace).He can't use the redirect that you've accuracy'd, he can't use either of the other tokens because of the title, so you're inflicting 3 damage on the shield zone you've targeted. Total shield depleted : 6 to 7, which is really close to 2 full hull zones on an MC80.

2) You start firing with the side arc for 3 damage on average. the opponent we'll not Brace to keep it for your big attack, and will probably redirect somewhere. Now, the front hull zone is likely to throw 6 to 7 damage on average as well, which he will brace down to 3-4. That's still 6 to 7 shields depleted in a single volley which isn't bad either.

Now, paired with Lyraeus' idea of throwing Bombers/Advanced onto that, you're really forcing the target to deplete shields because he'll want to keep his Brace fresh for the big attack. 4 Bombers will net on average 4 damage, so added to the 6-7 the Avenger will do, the enemy is going to find itself with a ship that has no shields on 3 of his 4 hull zones with 10 to 11 damage on average per activation. Definitely not bad.

The Avenger card might not have been activated at all, but by the enemy trying to counter the title he actually forced damage through.