And... what about if I want to eat your beef WITHOUT your spatula tool? I guess I can't... where is FREEDOM of choiche in there?

Erik Bauer said:

Sorry, can't edit my posts... I was meant to say "[...] WITHOUT buying your spatula tool [...]"

Erik Bauer said:

The special spatula is only there to help you make the beef better. If you don't use it, the beef may be a little greasy (like your normal burgers), but they will taste just fine. You can convert the spatula into a car window scraper for frosty mornings or throw it away if it offends you. The point is this awesome new game... I mean beef, that is superior to other beef. The spatula is our gift to you. You don't need it.

You are free to use it, and make an extra special superior burger, or you can do without it and just have a normal superior burger.

Edit: Please try our beef. We just want to make you happy and make enough money to develop even better superior beef so that your supply of great beef is never interrupted.

Yes, but what if I do not want to BUY it at first? I guess I'm not FREE to do it, am I?

Erik Bauer said:

Oh no, you can 'not buy' it. We hope that you will, and it will make us sad (and broke) if you don't, but you are free to choose. Just please, don't hold us responsible later if we stop making the beef because we can't sell it and you can't get other beef. If you go beefless, it's your choice. But please don't. We value you as a customer.

Edit: lol - this is getting out of control. I hope we don't give Jay a stroke when he wakes up. Imma go play some Borderlands!

My question is: Can I buy your new beef without buying the spatula? That translated becomes: Can I play V3 without buying (force players to buy) multiple times the same accessory if I have a numerous gaming group or different gaming groups?

I know that FFG needs to sell in order to keep WFRP alive... but I do not like THIS strategy they are using in order to force us to buy things if we want to play.

As you can see reading my "Poll" thread post I own almost everything that came out for V1 and V2. I buyed it because I liked the quality of the products and because I was in the mood of buying them. But being told "Hey, starting V3 will mean you'll enter in a spiral like situation where you'll HAVE to buy/make your players to buy things multiple times in order to properly play" makes my mood change. Badly.

No. Our beef will not be compromised.

NezziR said:

NezziR said:

And Dice? Do you buy blank ones and grave your own hammers on them? Dice are a proprietary spatula.

Additionally I doubt there will be pdfs to "replace" any of the props you mentioned. (at least no for official purchase) At the moment you only have to trust the word of the publisher that it will "improve" the roleplaying experience. I mean if I watch a home TV shopping channel I see such empty promises all the time. Its called marketing, and there are enough poor guys which shell out money for "new beef" and "new spatulas". (buy our new beef for 100$ and the you get 2 extra spatulas and trust us: you beef eating experience will be better then EVAR)

I dont want to be disrespectful but the question is: needs your rp game "improvement"? Is it that bad that you need a "progressometer" or a "tensionmeter"? If the answer is YES, then maybe you are ready for 3rd edition.

NezziR said:

How does it read? I'm understanding that you won't sell your beef without the spatula, right? So my freedom of choice is: Buy the Beef WITH the spatula or buy the Beef WITHOUT the spatula. I can't choose to buy the Beef but not buy the spatula... that's all the freedom of choiche I do have.

Now the funny part: I bought your beef+spatula and found it very tasty. I want to buy another beef... oh, but then I do have to buy another spatula too! How come, I already have one at home! I do not want to have thousands of them after some years! How come I can't buy just the beef without spatula for a little less €? You see? Forcing me again to buy more and more spatulas even if I do not need them! This way I'm going to get tired about your product and revert back to the old beef... too bad, another very good product ruined by nasty commercial rules.

This translates into:

I buy 3e and start playing with let's say 3-4 players. We enjoy our games... I enjoy GMing it and having lots of free time I start another campaign with another gaming group. This time they are 7 players, but my material suffices for just 3-4 if I want to keep a clear paced game, so I tell to them:

Me: "ok, you have to buy 3-4 Player's kit in order to play my campaign... "

Players: "How come? Your other gaming group did not have to buy anything!"

Me: "But you are more than 3-4 players so the basic material is not enough!"

Players "So WFRP is a game for 3-4 players? Never heard of such limitations in a RPG"

Me: "No! No... actually you can play even in 12 if you wish, but then you have to buy enough player's kit in order to be able to play by the rules"

Player 1 "Ah, clear now! WFRP 3e is that new Collectable Roleplaying Card Game I have heard about over the net! Guys, would you like to play Shadowrun instead? I have 2 or 3 handbooks and we can play a full whole campaign without any gaming kit!"

The above scenario is one of my greatest concerns about the whole thing. To follow up there is the not so impressive firts glance quality of the boxed set's content, and it's not just my impression, but my whole gaming group (we are in 7) wasn't surely impressed by it.

Everything else will came after.

And no, I'm not telling your beef is not good, in fact it is... but I do not want to stuff my house with spatulas I have no choice to not buy if I want your beef. If your beef fail is because I did not buy it, but that's your commercial decision's fault, not mine. Some other smart guy will find a way to make a beef as tasty as yours and his spatula will probably be sold apart.

That translates in:

I aknowledge that most ideas behind 3e are good, but I do not want to be forced/to see my players be forced to buy player's kit or player's expansion decks in order to keep up a numerous gaming group wit it's playing expectations.

Look, if you don't like my new beef, you can eat Dophin's & Drumsticks. I personally think my beef is better, it has more flavor. Dolphin's & Drumsticks are generic and a little boring (unless you have an amazing chef). New Beef, is a far superior meat, but you are free to eat what you like.

Just remember, New Beef will be here for you when you decide to give it a try. I hope we spend many happy and profitable years producing New Beef for you. There are certain standards by which...

Holy crap. I can't do this anymore.

Please stop.

LOL ;-)

You can continue this... as it puts in evidence what I'm starting to hate about 3e FFG's marketing decision and it's supporters: you just repeat how your product is great and far superior than previously existant rocksolid products, without really hearing what are our, possible customer, own concerns about it.

Now I have been a little bit exaggerated in tone with the previous statement but please give a reasonate answer to my fears in order to convince me not to worry about WFRP's future.

I was talking about beef.

No, but seriously, don't mistake me joking around for actual FFG marketing I just got carried away with my imaginary beef.

I know I know... but that's awesomely similar to the take yaysayers have upon the subject.

I have no beef with your beef, but I find the comparison a little bit abstract. Especially if we talk about spatulas, you obviously so desperately need to enjoy the new beef. Ok everyone has a different take on rpgs so I think 3rd will find its players, and I suppose most of these players will be loyal FFG and LCG fans which are used to tapping and putting counters on cards. (and call this behaviour roleplaying)

A better anaolgy is with a salad:
Whenever Bob and his group want to eat a salad they go to the local salad guy. He sells individual bags of a Romaine salad mix. Bob and groupmates need to each buy a bag (or share smaller portions of the same bag). Plus, they have to buy croutons, dressing, forks, plates, and cheese all separately as well.
One day, Bob and group go to their local salad guy and he has this "salad box" for sale. It has a big bag of spring mix salad instead of Romaine, enough for 4 people. Also included in the new salad box are forks, plates, croutons, dressing, cheese, plus a big salad bowl and serving utensils.
One of Bob's groupmates, John, says, "That's not a salad! That's a collectible silverware set!" (because of all the utensils and forks included, if you didn't catch my meaning)
Sally, another of Bob's groupmates says "This salad sucks, because it isn't Romaine lettuce!" (despite never having tried a spring mix)
The fact is, it is still a salad, and it still could be a good salad. It just comes with a different type of lettuce and a lot of stuff to make serving and eating it easier. Enough stuff, in fact, that one purchase is all 4 people need to enjoy a salad without needing to buy anything else.

@Peacekeeper
I keep hearing (er, reading I guess) people saying that if you dont like the cards you dont have to use them, but truth is, you do, as that is where the skill or action or talent is defined. So without the card, you dont have the data.

You don't. All you need to do is what you do for every other RPG: Write the information down on a piece of paper, then put the card back in the box. You *can* play without the cards. Sure, it's more of a pain because the game made it easier by having the card. For tokens, you can use glass beads, or dice, or marks on a paper if you so desire instead of the tokens the game came with. It's not as pretty, nor as handy, but it can be done without changing the game mechanics or gameplay.

@Erik:

I agree that the cards, and tokens, are more likely to be lost or damaged than a rulebook. That is indeed something to be aware of. You are best recording the card information somewhere, or downloading the player-made card summaries that will inevitably be made shortly after release. That way, should you lose a card, you can remake your own or at least have the information on hand until a replacement from FFG comes. And, if other FFG games are to go by, you don't have to "buy a replacement kit" for lost or damaged cards. You can contact FFG and they will replace it. So, no, still *NOT* a "collectable roleplaying card game" in any sense of the term.

I have to agree with NezziR's post. I also don't see how you couldn't also share your "dwarven card expansion" and still GM 3 groups of 7 players. It works exactly like having a "dwarven handbook expansion". Nothing in your post identifies why you can't do it exactly the same way. Yes, people might either need to share cards, or write the information down instead of using a card (oh, just like the handbook would require you to!). If you feel the cards are more fragile, then take steps to protect them. Use protectors, or get transparent plastic sheets to lay over them during play, for example. I also don't see anything *forcing* players to buy stuff, any more than any other RPG with expansions. The GM can still buy everything and the players can get away with nothing but some pens and paper.

Some more answers to your points ....

1) Possibly, but we don't know how many Wound cards there are or exactly how or when criticals occur. It might be possible to just record wounds on paper and re-use wound cards should the occasion occur where you run out.
2) You're assuming there is only 1 copy of the action cards. I'm betting there are at least 2 copies, if not more (possibly up to 4, for GM+3 players). We do know that there are 4 copies of each of the basic action cards. Plus, most of the basic action cards don't even have a recharge so are mostly for reference rather than tracking ... So, you're looking at maybe 2 people having to share a single card in a group of 7 players.
3) How messy is it really going to be? You're assuming. Most people won't have more than a couple action cards (not counting basic ones) they can use, especially in their first career. The action cards only need to be laid out if they currently have a recharge or as they are being rolled for to interpret the results.
4) True that books have indexes and page numbers for 'fast reference' at times. The point is that pre-game you sort out the cards your character can use and separate them out from all the ones that you can't. You're not looking through the entire deck to find the card you need during the game, you are looking through the 3-4 cards in front of you. Also, remember the character keepers. Part of the intent of these is that you can keep each PC's cards already separated from session to session if you want. All it really takes is a small box, folder, or even a bubble mailer, though. (Not as pretty, though!)

As I've proven, there is a valid opposite side to all these things. You are just looking at it in a negative light. Whether it is how you *want* to see it, or just how you *do* see it, does not necessarily make it how it *is*. You are looking at a glass being half empty and saying "oh no, there's almost no drink left in the glass", whereas it is just as plausible to say "cool, there's still a bunch of drink left in this glass!" Yes, there might be some issues with things like lost cards, or too much space taken up on the table, or sharing cards because of excess players, etc. There also might not be. We won't know until we play, and it probably will vary between groups anyway. If your group has 3 or 4 Trollslayers (or repeat of any other career), they'll probably be needing to share cards quite a bit. If you've got a diverse group of PCs, wanting different talents and action cards (and some concentrating on skills too, perhaps) then a group of 7 might need only to potentially share basic action cards (if that). Heck, it is possible that those 3-4 Trollslayers might specialize in different areas. One coulf go action card heavy, another talent heavy, another skills and stance heavy, etc. That would mean very few cards would need to be shared even between characters of the same career.

dvang said:

This was the one argument he had that I thought was concerning, but you've come with a valid idea for it. If you had a large number of players and feared running out of wound cards, you could record them on a sheet of paper and then just pull wound cards as 'crits'. In other words, only pull a wound card if it is a crit, otherwise record it on paper. For that matter, you could check the crit, write it down, and return the card to the deck.

I think the best way to look at card decks is that they are analogous to 'random charts'.

dvang said:

Proven is a matter of opinion, your counter argument of not having to use the cards has not proven right just yet.

I agree, but when I said "proven" I did not mean that I had proven that all the positives are true (such as being able to play without the cards with some creativity), but I was referring to the idea that it is just as valid and likely that none of the negatives posted are true. I had "proven" that we just don't know, and thus there is no reason to make snap judgements on assumed negatives. People should keep an open mind, rather than assuming the worst in the game.

@Mixed Salad example: How does your "Mixed Salad Kit" cost in proportion to regular salad? How much salad is there in for the same cost? That's an important aspect to keep in mind. With 3e we are going to have a costy basic kit (60€/100$) that contains, for what I've seen: 4 small booklets, a handful of custom dies, a deck of small cards, some cardboards.

The problem is that with this product you HAVE to use all this "plus" material in order to play. It's like telling that you can't eat Mixed Salad without the given fork because it's shape is the only one that will be able to get it from the plate and put it into your mouth. So in order to eat that salad you HAVE to pay for the forks.

Translated back to WFRP means that I HAVE to pay for all the plus material, regularly not needed for an RPG. And don't tell me "Look, all the plus material is a gift" because 4 small booklets are NOT worth 60€. Also the sentence "All this plus material will make you experience RPGs better than ever before" yet have to be proven, and it'll be difficult as WFRP had a rocksolid system and we enjoyed A LOT our games.

@All: you see, all my concern is on the real need of having all those counters, placeholders, custom dies and cards in order to improve an RPG experience. Some of them seem good ideas under certain points of view, very good ideas to be honest. But as I move my mindset a little bit, everything seem just a gimmik. And my personal life experience tells me that when this happens, the product is not as good as they are telling me it is.

Maybe it's just fear, fear of playing WFRP with a totally diverse system. Perhaps it's fear of HAVING to collect gadgets in order to play smoothly. Or it could even be me seeing things in the wrong way. But one thing I know for sure: really brilliant ideas usually find an enthusiastly positive reaction, this is not. And WFRP, being my favourite RPG deserves a really brilliant idea, no less.

Erik Bauer said:

I can't imagine anything less true than this.

monkeylite said:

Could you elaborate, please?

Erik Bauer said:

Well, in the context of your post, I took it to mean that brilliant ideas are always received with more enthusiasm, than disdain. Clearly a lot of people are enthusiastic about WFRP3, but you seemed to be saying that the fact that to you most people were not positive indicated that this wasn't a good idea.

But, istm that a significant proportion of new and or groundbreaking ideas (not that WFRP3 is necessarily ground breaking) is greeted with negativity and derision. I think that's pretty obvious. But then I could have misinterpreted your original meaning.

My bad, I've written it in a not easy to interpret as I tought it way. Mostly due to the fact English is not my first language.

My meaning was: "Those that to me are really brilliant ideas, usually find an enthusiastly positive reaction by me". I'm openminded enough to know that brilliant ideas are not as much brilliant for everybody. ;-)

I still WANT to be proven wrong... but reading developer diaries and gaming examples my opininon keep balanced on a 40%Pro and 60%Against. Each time I read a good idea about combat or whatever I end up thinking "Great idea, but why does it have to be done with all those gimmik things like tokens and cards?" and "Oh well... the booklets are so small..."

Erik Bauer said:

Fair enough.

Erik:

With 3e we are going to have a costy basic kit (60€/100$) that contains, for what I've seen: 4 small booklets, a handful of custom dies, a deck of small cards, some cardboards

You're minimizing what comes in the core set. It comes with: "4 Rulebooks, 36 custom dice, 154 action cards (which include spells and blessings, as well as special combat and social actions), 70 wound cards, 45 talent cards, 30 condition cards, 30 insanity cards, 30 career ability cards, 19 miscast cards, 12 location cards, 1 item card, 30 career sheets, 5 party sheets, 1 pad of character sheets, 3 character keeper boxes, 48 tracking tokens, 6 stance rings, 6 activation tokens, 2 large standups, 47 medium standups, 12 plastic bases, 39 fatigue & stress tokens, 40 puzzle-fit stance pieces, and 5 puzzle-fit centre pieces". So:
1) 36 is more than a handful of dice. Maybe 2 hands, if your hands are really big. I'm pretty sure my hands are too small to hold even 18 dice per without spilling.
2) The cards come in two sizes (not just a "deck of small cards"); large and small sizes. You also get a whopping total of 391 cards, really more than "a deck". (Consider "a deck" of playing cards is 52).
3) "some cardboards" actually translates to: 193 pieces (I totaled tokens plus the standups plus stance pieces, but didn't include the plastic bases)
4) You did not include the 30 career and 5 party sheets, the 3 character keeper boxes, nor the pad of character sheets.

If you individually priced out the contents of the boxed set, you will find it worth more than the $100 being charged. Heck, the dice alone are worth at least $20-$30. Yes, $100 is a lot to spend in one go. However, $100 is actually cheaper than the cost of the D&D 4e core box (by a few bucks). Sure, D&D has 3 books that are bigger than the 4x WFRP 3e books, but the WFRP 3e box comes will lots more stuff, including dice. Also speaking about the books and their size ... rememeber that all the careers, talents, actions, criticals, spells, etc are not contained in the books but on cards. Jay Little has already said (somewhere) that if they put that information in the books, the books would be more than twice their current size. They seem small, because there is less data, comparatively, that needs to be in them. Imagine if D&D took all the classes out of the PHB (and put them on separate card sheets), plus all the feats, spells, etc. How big would the PHB really be then? Not very big. It's just a matter of perspective that the WFRP 3e books appear small. So, when you say "4 small rulebooks are not worth the $100" ... to get comparable with other RPGs you have to also include all the career sheets and cards, as those have the rules for careers, talents, spells, etc. So "are 4 small rulebooks and a couple hundred cards and a couple dozen sheets, worth $100?" is the question you should be asking (assuming you don't buy from Amazon at the $62 price).

I do agree, if you don't want to use the entire package contents, buying the Core Set becomes less of a financial good deal. This has been discussed before. Given that you can buy the Set on Amazon for $62, I think it's still a good bargain. If it doesn't, then wait a few months for people (or perhaps even FFG) to sell individual pieces, such as the rulebooks. It has absolutely no bearing on whether the game itself is good, though, only whether buying the Core Set is worth it to you.