NezziR said:
Foolishboy said:
I also play in an online game with five other guys...
Just curious, what virtual table do you use?
No virtual table, we play by post on the GM's private forum.
I have seen WFRP V3 exposed att Lucca Comics&Games con
commoner said:
Loswaith said:
My concern is more about what we arent being told, some of the Design Diaries tell only half the information on the given topic, and honestly I cant realy see why they wouldnt give all the information unless they were concerned that it would be detrimental to how the game is percieved. The lack of information is I think one of the biggest detrimental effects on the system yet.
Exactly the problem!!! I don't actually believe they fear it will be detrimental to the system, but they are approaching it as if it was time to give us teaser trailers. However, the system is supposed to be out by the end of November. Really, by now, we should have solid facts and we don't. We have half-baked designer diaries. Grant it, I like what I've seen thus far (except card recharge), but I don't really have enough information about how that'll work. As a short list of what we do know is as follows:
1) Funky dice give varying results with the potential of success with complications and failures with benefits gained.
2) Career selection and career shifting is done off four words and the xp cost is determined off of that.
3) A good, loose generation system allowing PC'S to customize in unprecedented ways as compared to 2e.
4) Clerics will have to invoke favor to cast spells.
5) Initiative is off party selection instead of off each character's individual actions.
6) The Skill List.
7) How monster's work and the inclusion of Mook rules (though not at all required, just an option for those who want horde tension instead of tense one on one fights.
8) A few vague special rules of major beasties (most of which doesn't make sense).
9) A Stance meter influences dice and the token has to be kept track of turn to turn/scene to scene.
10) Fortune Points go all kinds of crazy ways.
11) There will be party sheets, but what kind of party sheets there will be, we have no idea.
12) How to hit rolls and damage is calculated (all though, we don't really know how that truly works since the example to hit card mentions something about an opposed resolution check and we don't actually know how that works).
13) How money works and the tiers and social classes of the Warhammer world?
14) Wounds are done on cards and you flip them over when you get a critical.
That's about it. This leaves tons and tons and tons of nuts and bolts about the system left out. Really, did we need an economics of Warhammer diary before we got a magic system? Especially about something this controversial? I don't know, it just seemed less important to me. I also don't understand why we were get three diaries a week and now we're getting only one a week.
The dice are fantastic and anyone who thinks they can get those kind of results from an MMORPG are just plain silly. I can see where the cards may seem to tie into it for them, as I have pointed out in other threads I can totally see where they're coming from, but Warhammer has a lot of merits in the dice, initiative, party cards and character creation system. I'd say all of that is way better than second. I'd say the majority of it is actually thus far, but I really don't have a clear enough understanding of combat to say it is 100% better. The old system (with modifications) was fantastic at combat...this one, I have no idea.
I really wish they would release more info. The other thing about groups is groups are groups and they follow pack mentality because of it. Thanks to the Internet, the pack mentality of gaming seems to overpower reason and personal choice more often then not. So if the majority of one forum says Warhammer 3e sucks, then it sucks. Right now, the most bitter people come online just to complain. People who like it generally shy away as afraid of being either disapproved by the group or don't want to fight. They just move on to other groups who approve of their choices. Warseer.com is a great example of this. 40K lives and dies by that sight.
So largely, I think the 3e haters don't outway the lovers or the disinterested. I agree that the price point might be a little high, but again, people are just fooling themselves. 4e plus dice comes in at a bout 100 bucks as well. They all do. One game + Suppliment + dice is always 100 bucks. You do get the cards that cover dozens of pieces of information. Also, if you look at the original post he says the decks have less than a magic deck. Well that's simply untrue. Magic has 60 cards roughly in a deck (40 is generally tournament standard). If you look at the stuff included in the box set for the Emperor's Call you'll see it includes 157 Actions cards alone. That's over double the number of cards in a magic deck. I believe the box set comes with 300 cards. A magic starter deck is roughly 10 bucks for sixty cards. If that's the case this game includes 300 cards which is about 5 starter decks, which is 50 USD! Now if you add in the cost of the manuals (30 dollar value, give or take), plus the character sheet pad (normally 10 bucks when sold seperately), plus 36 custom dice (roughly 30 USD), plus the counters, you get a total of 120 USD buying these components for various games. So no, the price isn't ridiculous.
Also, most of the negativity about the game is over aesthetics and picky, picky, little gripes...for instance:
1)The book is not hard back, they're too small, they don't "feel" like manuals. Well actually, back in the early days of gaming, these were manuals. A hardback monstrosity wouldn't "feel" right to those people back then either. So it's being picky for being picky's sake and actually is not a reflection of the system at all or the game, just the manuals. If the greatest game in the world was written on a three by five index card, would you not play it simply because it didn't "feel" like a manual.
2) The system uses different dice. really? Do people complain that PC games use PC controls and Console games use controllers? Do they really complain that they can't use a blender to cook a steak? I'm sorry, it's just picky and really, really pointless. They're not complaining that the new results won't be any better or worse than stanard RPG'S, they're just complaining that they need them. Sorry, your halo video game won't let you also play Grand Theft Auto, but that's money you're willing to shell out for a game you can only use "one way" too.
3) This is like 4e. Sorry, it's not. It's entire system is not based on a horribly outdated magic system with limited uses of once per day and other various junk. It's just not. It's not limited by classes. You don't get hit points off your level...as a matter of a fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with 4e other than they both use cards, period.
4) They killed 2e. Again, it's not a reflection on 3e's system, it's simply a reflection on how it isn't 2e. Well, 2e apparently wasn't selling or ffg would have kept making products for it. For instance, it would be super-stupid for Microsoft to stop making Windows because it sells. If it ever stopped selling, they would switch systems. Would the 2e people rather never have any more Warhammer because the line doesn't sell just to keep with their beloved 2e or would they rather have Warhammer being played.
5) Like an MMO. Honestly, the only MMO aspect I've seen is the recharge on the action cards. Also, everything about an MMO comes from RPG'S. Sorry, it does. Spell points and spell points that recharge and each spell costing a certain amount of spell points to cast harkens back to at least 1st edition warhammer rpg...this is the same as a mana pool and casting exhausts mana pool. Mana pool must recharge so more powers can cast. Recharge is what it is, and I do feel like it's the greatest short-coming of 3e, but again, we have to wait and see.
However, I totally agree this system needs a lot more information and maybe, it'll swing the negatives back to the positives.
commoner said:
Loswaith said:
My concern is more about what we arent being told, some of the Design Diaries tell only half the information on the given topic, and honestly I cant realy see why they wouldnt give all the information unless they were concerned that it would be detrimental to how the game is percieved. The lack of information is I think one of the biggest detrimental effects on the system yet.
Exactly the problem!!! I don't actually believe they fear it will be detrimental to the system, but they are approaching it as if it was time to give us teaser trailers. However, the system is supposed to be out by the end of November. Really, by now, we should have solid facts and we don't. We have half-baked designer diaries. Grant it, I like what I've seen thus far (except card recharge), but I don't really have enough information about how that'll work. As a short list of what we do know is as follows:
1) Funky dice give varying results with the potential of success with complications and failures with benefits gained.
2) Career selection and career shifting is done off four words and the xp cost is determined off of that.
3) A good, loose generation system allowing PC'S to customize in unprecedented ways as compared to 2e.
4) Clerics will have to invoke favor to cast spells.
5) Initiative is off party selection instead of off each character's individual actions.
6) The Skill List.
7) How monster's work and the inclusion of Mook rules (though not at all required, just an option for those who want horde tension instead of tense one on one fights.
8) A few vague special rules of major beasties (most of which doesn't make sense).
9) A Stance meter influences dice and the token has to be kept track of turn to turn/scene to scene.
10) Fortune Points go all kinds of crazy ways.
11) There will be party sheets, but what kind of party sheets there will be, we have no idea.
12) How to hit rolls and damage is calculated (all though, we don't really know how that truly works since the example to hit card mentions something about an opposed resolution check and we don't actually know how that works).
13) How money works and the tiers and social classes of the Warhammer world?
14) Wounds are done on cards and you flip them over when you get a critical.
That's about it. This leaves tons and tons and tons of nuts and bolts about the system left out. Really, did we need an economics of Warhammer diary before we got a magic system? Especially about something this controversial? I don't know, it just seemed less important to me. I also don't understand why we were get three diaries a week and now we're getting only one a week.
The dice are fantastic and anyone who thinks they can get those kind of results from an MMORPG are just plain silly. I can see where the cards may seem to tie into it for them, as I have pointed out in other threads I can totally see where they're coming from, but Warhammer has a lot of merits in the dice, initiative, party cards and character creation system. I'd say all of that is way better than second. I'd say the majority of it is actually thus far, but I really don't have a clear enough understanding of combat to say it is 100% better. The old system (with modifications) was fantastic at combat...this one, I have no idea.
I really wish they would release more info. The other thing about groups is groups are groups and they follow pack mentality because of it. Thanks to the Internet, the pack mentality of gaming seems to overpower reason and personal choice more often then not. So if the majority of one forum says Warhammer 3e sucks, then it sucks. Right now, the most bitter people come online just to complain. People who like it generally shy away as afraid of being either disapproved by the group or don't want to fight. They just move on to other groups who approve of their choices. Warseer.com is a great example of this. 40K lives and dies by that sight.
So largely, I think the 3e haters don't outway the lovers or the disinterested. I agree that the price point might be a little high, but again, people are just fooling themselves. 4e plus dice comes in at a bout 100 bucks as well. They all do. One game + Suppliment + dice is always 100 bucks. You do get the cards that cover dozens of pieces of information. Also, if you look at the original post he says the decks have less than a magic deck. Well that's simply untrue. Magic has 60 cards roughly in a deck (40 is generally tournament standard). If you look at the stuff included in the box set for the Emperor's Call you'll see it includes 157 Actions cards alone. That's over double the number of cards in a magic deck. I believe the box set comes with 300 cards. A magic starter deck is roughly 10 bucks for sixty cards. If that's the case this game includes 300 cards which is about 5 starter decks, which is 50 USD! Now if you add in the cost of the manuals (30 dollar value, give or take), plus the character sheet pad (normally 10 bucks when sold seperately), plus 36 custom dice (roughly 30 USD), plus the counters, you get a total of 120 USD buying these components for various games. So no, the price isn't ridiculous.
Also, most of the negativity about the game is over aesthetics and picky, picky, little gripes...for instance:
1)The book is not hard back, they're too small, they don't "feel" like manuals. Well actually, back in the early days of gaming, these were manuals. A hardback monstrosity wouldn't "feel" right to those people back then either. So it's being picky for being picky's sake and actually is not a reflection of the system at all or the game, just the manuals. If the greatest game in the world was written on a three by five index card, would you not play it simply because it didn't "feel" like a manual.
2) The system uses different dice. really? Do people complain that PC games use PC controls and Console games use controllers? Do they really complain that they can't use a blender to cook a steak? I'm sorry, it's just picky and really, really pointless. They're not complaining that the new results won't be any better or worse than stanard RPG'S, they're just complaining that they need them. Sorry, your halo video game won't let you also play Grand Theft Auto, but that's money you're willing to shell out for a game you can only use "one way" too.
3) This is like 4e. Sorry, it's not. It's entire system is not based on a horribly outdated magic system with limited uses of once per day and other various junk. It's just not. It's not limited by classes. You don't get hit points off your level...as a matter of a fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with 4e other than they both use cards, period.
4) They killed 2e. Again, it's not a reflection on 3e's system, it's simply a reflection on how it isn't 2e. Well, 2e apparently wasn't selling or ffg would have kept making products for it. For instance, it would be super-stupid for Microsoft to stop making Windows because it sells. If it ever stopped selling, they would switch systems. Would the 2e people rather never have any more Warhammer because the line doesn't sell just to keep with their beloved 2e or would they rather have Warhammer being played.
5) Like an MMO. Honestly, the only MMO aspect I've seen is the recharge on the action cards. Also, everything about an MMO comes from RPG'S. Sorry, it does. Spell points and spell points that recharge and each spell costing a certain amount of spell points to cast harkens back to at least 1st edition warhammer rpg...this is the same as a mana pool and casting exhausts mana pool. Mana pool must recharge so more powers can cast. Recharge is what it is, and I do feel like it's the greatest short-coming of 3e, but again, we have to wait and see.
However, I totally agree this system needs a lot more information and maybe, it'll swing the negatives back to the positives.
0)I'm not telling the card decks are smaller than Magic ones. I'm telling the card themselves seem to be smaller (could not do a direct comparison)
1)The booklet exteriorly felt just like that: Booklets, not like modern handbooks. Sorry but how is FFG innovating an RPG,by putting 20 Yo quality hanbooks in it? BTW, mine is a judgement coming from an exterior view. I reserve further judgement when I'll be able to pick those handbooks in my hand, but my suspect (call it 6th sense) is that their content will be no near to V2 one.
2)I'm not completely against the fact the system is using different dies. Well I was months ago but now I'm feeling more openminded. I'm just telling the physical quality of those dies seemed nothing exceptional to me (average board game dies quality)
3)Where did I told that?
4)Yes... well no... they Killed 2e evolution possibilities. As I told somewhere I'll probably make my own 2.5E mixing 2e, 3e and Dark Heresy rules, if ever 3e will not be of my and my gaming group's liking
5)Not like an mmo... but as far as I know for now more like a collectionable rolecard game. I'll change my idea whenever a deep talk with someone that knows not just the game but how expansions will work and a demo game will change my mind.
So, to sum up my thread's purpose: I'm the first to tell some of the ideas we are let to understand seem very very good, but the philosophy behind it and the pakage quality for now (FOR NOW) does not satisfy me. And in order to make me buy a product I have to be satysfied.
@ REST OF THE THREAD : Please try keeping on topic. This is not a thread about generic whining or about how people whines about this game. This is a thread about what we can actually see or what we actually have seen about the physical product.
Foolishboy said:
macd21 said:
Yeah, new edition rage is standard.
Nerdrage is common upon a new game and there has been a lot. However what I have witnessed outside of the nerdrage is disinterest. Out of the players I know more are just not interested at all than those that are angry. The guys I play online with their reaction was nerdrage, but most of the people I play with in person just looked at WFRPv3 and went "looks like crap, not interested".
Well as far as I can remember V2 was very well wellcomed by fans. Of course there has been some whining about some debatable changes (like cutting down the number of stats), but all in all the product was a great success in being acclaimed by fans.
Erik Bauer said:
Well as far as I can remember V2 was very well wellcomed by fans. Of course there has been some whining about some debatable changes (like cutting down the number of stats), but all in all the product was a great success in being acclaimed by fans.
The situation was a little different. WFRPv1 ended in 2002 when Hogshead stopped producing material. WFRPv2 was very well received until it's release then the flame/edition wars began. Prior to WFRPv2 release the fans were just happy that their game was being officially supported again, once the fans had a look at the game themselves the complaints over the changes began.
WFRPv2 to WFRPv3 or say D&D3.5 to D&D4e was different because in both cases an officially supported game with an active fanbase was ended by the producer and a new game released in place of the old one. That situation is where the edition wars generally spring up, opinion on the new game will split the fanbase some liking it, some not, new fans coming in will also play a factor.
If in a couple of years FFG stop making WFRPv3 and make a WFRPv4 it will probably cause another edition war. If FFG stop making WFRPv3 and a couple of years later Games Workshop decide to release a WFRPv4 the new game will most likely be well received.
I do not know if it's just all about that.
I mean: if ever V2 had been anything like V3... well there would have been a lot more whining and raging. And I do not know if I myself would be GMing V2 right now.
Erik Bauer said:
I do not know if it's just all about that.
I mean: if ever V2 had been anything like V3... well there would have been a lot more whining and raging. And I do not know if I myself would be GMing V2 right now.
Your probably right, but there is normally a bit more sting when an active game is ended and replaced by a new game.
@Foolishboy:
I'm curious. When people tell you it "looks like crap", what do they mean? Are they talking about looking at the physical components? Quality? Have they read the diaries and think the rules are bad? What, exactly, is "crap"? I know, when I first heard about 3e and saw a snapshot and saw all the cards, I thought bad things about the game ("oh no, they turned WFRP into a board/card game!"). I decided to watch the seminar video and read the diaries, and was quickly dissuaded from that notion and was relieved to see that it is still an RPG. The more I read, the better I like the game. So, likely that is a big part of the issue people seem to have. 3e just seems at a glance to be too ... different, I guess, for people. Just looking at what comes in the box, it doesn't quickly appear to be very RPG-like. All the tools provided don't make it look like a traditional RPG. I'd suggest that anyone who feels negatively about 3e should watch the seminar videos and read the diaries (if they haven't already). Only then can they make at least a quasi-informed opinon as to the game. Otherwise, it's like saying you hate chocolate, without ever having seen it first hand or tried it. Just because it's brown, or "looks like crap" in a picture you saw of it.
@Erik
- FFG often makes some smaller cards. They take up a lot less space. I have Arkham Horror, which comes with two sizes of cards. Neither is difficult to handle, and I can imagine the smaller size of the less-handled cards (like wounds) is a bonus considering the space each player could conceivably take up. Regardless, if they are anything like the AH cards, they are all very high quality.
- Of course, I haven't seen the books myself. Yes, we knew they were a bit slim. There is a breakdown by FFG somewhere. I think it was something like 70 pages for the player and GM books, and about 40 for the divine and arcane books. Remember, though, that all the talents and actions and criticals and spells, etc are on cards, and thus don't need to be in the books. So, what's in there are all rules and background information. I won't be able to talk about the quality until I see it in person (hopefully next week). From the pictures I've seen, though, everything in the box, including the books, look to be to the high quality standard I've seen in every FFG product so far.
- "Collectable roleplay card game"? Have you actually read the diaries? It's only as 'collectable' as every other RPG. Each RPG expansion book contains new classes and gear and talents/skills. The difference is that 3e provides them on cards to easily integrate into your exisiting ones. So, instead of having multiple books to search through to find your options for gaining a new talent, all you need to do is look through the single deck of talents. 3e is a "collectable card game", perhaps, if all the other RPGs are really "collectable paper games", and, any boardgame with expansions is a "collectable cardboard/dice/card/counter" game. Cards are a part of 3e, but are still just a tool. First and foremost, it is an RPG. I think too many people see the cards, hear cards come with expansions, and leap to the erroneous conclusion 3e has become a "collectable card game". It's just a different way to transport the same expansion information that RPGs have always done.
- Card's and actions. Well, if you've seen the diaries, you've seen quite a few of the cards by now. They all seem to have 4-6 various die results on them. This is nothing new, so shouldn't have been a surprise to you ... besides the fact that it was the Basic attack card. Those always tend to be a bit generic and 'boring'. As an experienced GM, you should feel comfortable applying various additional effects or narrating how that "strong hit" really was exceptional, etc. As FFG has said in some of their diaries, the presentation of the roll (narrating additional of dice, for example) and the interpretation/narration of the results is where a lot of the roleplaying in combat occurs. Regardless, even 4-5 results is more varied than what you'd get with the percentile system.
dvang said:
- "Collectable roleplay card game"? Have you actually read the diaries?
I think you nailed one of the biggest issues here. I'm seeing a lot of people that are surfing in, barely skimming the material, forming strong opinions, and posting like mad. In fact, I've seen posters rant about something, ask a question, have it answered, and continue ranting as if they didn't even read the reply.
Perhaps the site needs to be rearranged or something. I mean, I'm not having any trouble navigating it and finding the answers to my questions, but it seems others are. Some of the misconception boggle the mind.
Foolishboy said:
Erik Bauer said:
I do not know if it's just all about that.
I mean: if ever V2 had been anything like V3... well there would have been a lot more whining and raging. And I do not know if I myself would be GMing V2 right now.
Your probably right, but there is normally a bit more sting when an active game is ended and replaced by a new game.
Likely even more so when you discover its being developed while more stuff for the active game is being produced too (or pushing the illusion that the current system will stay active for that matter).
NezziR said:
dvang said:
- "Collectable roleplay card game"? Have you actually read the diaries?
I think you nailed one of the biggest issues here. I'm seeing a lot of people that are surfing in, barely skimming the material, forming strong opinions, and posting like mad. In fact, I've seen posters rant about something, ask a question, have it answered, and continue ranting as if they didn't even read the reply.
Perhaps the site needs to be rearranged or something. I mean, I'm not having any trouble navigating it and finding the answers to my questions, but it seems others are. Some of the misconception boggle the mind.
I think that actually is the problem. Not really that people are having nisconceptions about how the game works, but more they are put off by the game itself. Not its rules, or system, but by aspects of it. Cards, special dice, meters and what not.
They look at it, say "eh looks stupid and like a card game" and they dont care enough to be proven wrong. And like it or not, that is part of the products fault not the customers.
Let's say I just invented a new kind of raw beef. This new raw beef has many differences. It will cook faster, there is less chance of burning it, and it fits on the bun better. I've included a new spatula that will assist you in cooking it and a new type of fuel for your stove that burns slower and hotter and helps you cook the meat better, making the final product very tasty.
It will be 2 minutes before the first person shows up and says, "Hey, this isn't beef! It's chicken. I want my beef the way it was before. This is going to taste like crap. I hate it."
So I say, "Try it first. It's pure beef, I promise. If you made good burgers before, then they will still be great! Now though, they are easier to make and more fun to eat!"
Chicken Hater: It's not beef, it's going to taste like chicken. It's chicken and you can't make me buy it. I'm going to tell everyone how crappy your new chicken-beef is and I hope your new chicken-beef company dies!
Me: Well, I guess you can make it taste like chicken if you really try. How it tastes is up to the cook. I'm just giving you better beef.
Chicken Hater: You mean chicken don't you?
Me: No, I mean it's beef. It comes from cows. It's just better.
Chicken Hater: I hate your stupid chicken. And what's with all the utensils and fuel? I have a spatula. I don't want your stupid gas.
Me: Well, the beef is best if it is cooked over a slow burning high heat and the new spatula is superior to the old style. Look, it drains the grease as you flip the burger which makes the finished meat taste better!
Chicken Hater: Real beef doesn't need a special spatula or gas. I see that your stupid chicken-beef does though. Perhaps we will get lucky and someone will choke on your chicken-beef and it will destroy your chicken-beef reputation and we can get our old beef back!
Me: Ok, calm down there Beavis. You don't have to use the spatula. You don't have to use the gas. We included it to make the end product as tasty as possible. You can still cook it the way you always did. In fact, we encourage it. It is, after all, the cook that makes the burger special.
Chicken Hater: Well, I hate your spatula and I resent you trying to make me pay more for it.
Me: It's really a minute part of the cost. Most people will want it. It's cheaper for everyone if we just include it in all of the packages.
Chicken Hater: Your new chicken sucks.
Me: Sigh...
Moments later, a potential customer comes in to check out the product.
Me: Hey! Welcome to 'New Beef'.
New Customer: Can you tell me a little about your product?
Me: I'd love to. We've worked really hard to make a great new product. What we've done is...
Chicken Hater: Hey dude. It's not beef, it's chicken. Also, if you eat it you will get gas. Look, there's even a gas can in the package.
Me: Hey...
Chicken Hater: Run dude, don't buy this guys poison chicken. Run and tell everyone you know about the poisonous gassy abomination this guy has created.
New Customer: You know what, I don't know what's going on here, but I don't want to get involved. Good luck with your chicken man.
Me: Sigh...
Later, everyone dies in a horrific explosion when a fuel truck runs out of control and crashes into the new building. The explosion is blamed on the poisonous gas included in the chicken-beef.
The End.
P.S. This has nothing to do with Warhammer. I just thought it was a great story.
While a funny post, I really dont see how that applies at all. Perhaps if FFG offers a demo, as your new beef man offered, that was openly available then sure. But so far, its just the beef man telling you about the product, showing you the product behind glass containers and in photographs and saying "you can now preorder it".
And while I understand the comparison of the new spatula and gas that helps in making the beef cook faster and better, 3E doesnt have anything really like that. The dice are not an optional addition, the cards are not an optional addition, the tokens are not an optional addition, they are aspects of the system that are necessary as they are packaged to make the system playable.
I keep hearing (er, reading I guess) people saying that if you dont like the cards you dont have to use them, but truth is, you do, as that is where the skill or action or talent is defined. So without the card, you dont have the data.
And RPGs, just like beef, is a matter of taste.
NezziR said:
P.S. This has nothing to do with Warhammer. I just thought it was a great story.
Great Sigmar's Ghost! I totally missed this part of yor post!
What? Why are you comparing this to Warhammer. I have no idea what you are talking about...
But:
Definitions of Pre-order on the Web:
A pre-order is an order placed for an item which has not yet been released . The idea for pre-orders came when people found it hard to get popular items in stores due to their popularity. ...
NezziR said:
What? Why are you comparing this to Warhammer.
Coz you can make Burghers with both.
Actually I AM reading developer diary and I AM reading as much material as I can about V3.
My concern in this post is that the material I have seen in that stand did not look like quality material at all.
Maybe I am overcriticizing, in fact WFRP is my favourite RPG and I'm suffering fear for it's possible fate and evolution. Maybe it's just that. But maybe it's jsut my 6th sense kicking in... telling me somethig basilar is wrong about this game, something I can't precisely identify and name, but something important and visceral.
I tell you: I can't wait to play a proper V3 game and spend hours discussing about it with a person that played it and knows it a lot, in the hope to find it is a good game.
But even then my 6th sense is telling me something has changed for little worse... we will not perceive WFRP in the same way: what happens if you loose 2-3 cards? What happens if your gaming group is made up by 6-7 people? Quick answer? You have to tell them to buy Player's kits. Not all that expensive, yes, but surely more expensive than a couple of D10, a pencil and a piece of paper. Then, maybe in 2 years FFG will pull out a Dwarf Player Kit and a Halfling Player Kit. I know at least one of my players will want to play a proper dwarf and surely will buy it, I as a GM wil buy it. Then one year later comes out the complete Witch Hunter players kit... you get the idea.
Oh, I know, in a normal WFRPV2 situation most probably the Dwarf Handbook would have been more expensive and the player would have bought it anyway... but the phylosophy behind it is different: with one Dwarf Handbook you can play with a WHOLE party of 7 dwarves... with a single Dwarven Players' kit you can't. You have to buy more than one. Got the point? Collectable Roleplayng Card Game... sounds more correct now?
Another advantage point that Handbooks have above card decks is that it is much more difficult to have a handbook page going lost or eaten by dog than a card has. Cards tend to slip, fall under the fridge, being soaked by accidentaly poured coke or beer, mixing them usures them also. Handbooks tend to stay integer for tenths of years (I've very old ones and they're still perusable and usable). But don't be afraid! You can also replace your MiA cards buying Replacement Player's Kit! Collectable Roleplaying Card Game... sounds more plausible now?
You know what? FFG is just applying a strong market strategy: WFRPV2 did not sold enough to keep itself alive? We will make it sell enough by forcing (yes, forcing, not pushing) players and GMs to buy lots of small kits.
Erik Bauer said:
Actually I AM reading developer diary and I AM reading as much material as I can about V3.
My concern in this post is that the material I have seen in that stand did not look like quality material at all.
Maybe I am overcriticizing, in fact WFRP is my favourite RPG and I'm suffering fear for it's possible fate and evolution. Maybe it's just that. But maybe it's jsut my 6th sense kicking in... telling me somethig basilar is wrong about this game, something I can't precisely identify and name, but something important and visceral.
I tell you: I can't wait to play a proper V3 game and spend hours discussing about it with a person that played it and knows it a lot, in the hope to find it is a good game.
But even then my 6th sense is telling me something has changed for little worse... we will not perceive WFRP in the same way: what happens if you loose 2-3 cards? What happens if your gaming group is made up by 6-7 people? Quick answer? You have to tell them to buy Player's kits. Not all that expensive, yes, but surely more expensive than a couple of D10, a pencil and a piece of paper. Then, maybe in 2 years FFG will pull out a Dwarf Player Kit and a Halfling Player Kit. I know at least one of my players will want to play a proper dwarf and surely will buy it, I as a GM wil buy it. Then one year later comes out the complete Witch Hunter players kit... you get the idea.
Oh, I know, in a normal WFRPV2 situation most probably the Dwarf Handbook would have been more expensive and the player would have bought it anyway... but the phylosophy behind it is different: with one Dwarf Handbook you can play with a WHOLE party of 7 dwarves... with a single Dwarven Players' kit you can't. You have to buy more than one. Got the point? Collectable Roleplayng Card Game... sounds more correct now?
Another advantage point that Handbooks have above card decks is that it is much more difficult to have a handbook page going lost or eaten by dog than a card has. Cards tend to slip, fall under the fridge, being soaked by accidentaly poured coke or beer, mixing them usures them also. Handbooks tend to stay integer for tenths of years (I've very old ones and they're still perusable and usable). But don't be afraid! You can also replace your MiA cards buying Replacement Player's Kit! Collectable Roleplaying Card Game... sounds more plausible now?
You know what? FFG is just applying a strong market strategy: WFRPV2 did not sold enough to keep itself alive? We will make it sell enough by forcing (yes, forcing, not pushing) players and GMs to buy lots of small kits.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. How do you know that a 'Dwarf kit' will only support one player? You can't even say for sure there will be one, or that it won't include classes, equipment, and lots of other value added material. Expansion packs are common in RPGs. I have a 'thief' book from nearly every version of D&D. Even D&D 4th is doing this. Games need to sell stuff to survive. Selling each player 1 book and you're done isn't a good business model, especially with a small niche group like Warhammer players. Want to see more material? The company has to profit and it has to be worth it for them to make more. Simple economics. You are getting panicked over speculation. I'm seeing a lot of this.
And your cards. If they are flying all over your house, slipping under stoves and getting ate by dogs, perhaps you should take a little better care of your stuff. Try the card protector sheets listed in other threads. I mean, a spilled drink will ruin books and screens just a easily as cards. That's why we have a 'no drinks on the table' rule.
If you have a lot of players, you are either going to have to buy two sets, or share. You will have to share just like you would if you had 8 players and 1 book. If you don't like to share, that's a personal preference.
In fact, I'm not seeing any points here that aren't personal preference once the misconceptions are stripped away. Maybe your '6th sense' is confused. It's beef, not chicken-be... I mean, it's a roleplaying game. Not a 'collectible card game'.
NezziR said:
Erik Bauer said:
Actually I AM reading developer diary and I AM reading as much material as I can about V3.
My concern in this post is that the material I have seen in that stand did not look like quality material at all.
Maybe I am overcriticizing, in fact WFRP is my favourite RPG and I'm suffering fear for it's possible fate and evolution. Maybe it's just that. But maybe it's jsut my 6th sense kicking in... telling me somethig basilar is wrong about this game, something I can't precisely identify and name, but something important and visceral.
I tell you: I can't wait to play a proper V3 game and spend hours discussing about it with a person that played it and knows it a lot, in the hope to find it is a good game.
But even then my 6th sense is telling me something has changed for little worse... we will not perceive WFRP in the same way: what happens if you loose 2-3 cards? What happens if your gaming group is made up by 6-7 people? Quick answer? You have to tell them to buy Player's kits. Not all that expensive, yes, but surely more expensive than a couple of D10, a pencil and a piece of paper. Then, maybe in 2 years FFG will pull out a Dwarf Player Kit and a Halfling Player Kit. I know at least one of my players will want to play a proper dwarf and surely will buy it, I as a GM wil buy it. Then one year later comes out the complete Witch Hunter players kit... you get the idea.
Oh, I know, in a normal WFRPV2 situation most probably the Dwarf Handbook would have been more expensive and the player would have bought it anyway... but the phylosophy behind it is different: with one Dwarf Handbook you can play with a WHOLE party of 7 dwarves... with a single Dwarven Players' kit you can't. You have to buy more than one. Got the point? Collectable Roleplayng Card Game... sounds more correct now?
Another advantage point that Handbooks have above card decks is that it is much more difficult to have a handbook page going lost or eaten by dog than a card has. Cards tend to slip, fall under the fridge, being soaked by accidentaly poured coke or beer, mixing them usures them also. Handbooks tend to stay integer for tenths of years (I've very old ones and they're still perusable and usable). But don't be afraid! You can also replace your MiA cards buying Replacement Player's Kit! Collectable Roleplaying Card Game... sounds more plausible now?
You know what? FFG is just applying a strong market strategy: WFRPV2 did not sold enough to keep itself alive? We will make it sell enough by forcing (yes, forcing, not pushing) players and GMs to buy lots of small kits.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. How do you know that a 'Dwarf kit' will only support one player? You can't even say for sure there will be one, or that it won't include classes, equipment, and lots of other value added material. Expansion packs are common in RPGs. I have a 'thief' book from nearly every version of D&D. Even D&D 4th is doing this. Games need to sell stuff to survive. Selling each player 1 book and you're done isn't a good business model, especially with a small niche group like Warhammer players. Want to see more material? The company has to profit and it has to be worth it for them to make more. Simple economics. You are getting panicked over speculation. I'm seeing a lot of this.
And your cards. If they are flying all over your house, slipping under stoves and getting ate by dogs, perhaps you should take a little better care of your stuff. Try the card protector sheets listed in other threads. I mean, a spilled drink will ruin books and screens just a easily as cards. That's why we have a 'no drinks on the table' rule.
If you have a lot of players, you are either going to have to buy two sets, or share. You will have to share just like you would if you had 8 players and 1 book. If you don't like to share, that's a personal preference.
In fact, I'm not seeing any good points here that aren't personal preference. Maybe your '6th sense' is confused
I do not know... but seems probable and a handbook will of course contain careers (hopefully not classes), equipment background and other things. But while with a single Dwarven handbook I can GM 3 groups of 7 players each in 3 different days of the week, SHARING my handbook to whoever asks me it during the game, I simply can't do it with a single deck of Dwarven cards. Most probably some of the players will buy the Dwarven handbook anyway but they will not be forced to do it in order to play my dwarven campaign.
I know, this is an extreme example, but it should serve in showing you my point of view.
About loosing/damaging cards. My gaming group is like most of the gaming group I know: we try having respect and care about gaming material but we like to eat and drink at the table. This is why our rule is to keep hanboks behind the screen (where I am responsable of them) or on another neasrby table when not used. But that is not the point, the point is some things are more fragile than others: glasses and mirrors are more fragile than walls for example. In that case cards are more fragile and lost prone than handbooks are, I guess there is no much to tell about it.
Oh well... you may be right, maybe mine is just personal taste. Maybe my personal taste is that I do not like my players being strongly pushed (when not forced) to buy materials in order to play MY game. Maybe my personal tase tells me that I do not like to play with easily broken material. But you see... in order to make me buy the product, FFG has to match my personal tastes... and my gaming group's aswell.
Erik Bauer said:
Erik Bauer said:
I do not know... but seems probable and a handbook will of course contain careers (hopefully not classes), equipment background and other things. But while with a single Dwarven handbook I can GM 3 groups of 7 players each in 3 different days of the week, SHARING my handbook to whoever asks me it during the game, I simply can't do it with a single deck of Dwarven cards. Most probably some of the players will buy the Dwarven handbook anyway but they will not be forced to do it in order to play my dwarven campaign.
I understand, but I don't agree. Yes, a handbook might contain all the things you said, but so might the 'kit' you mentioned. And, why can you share a handbook, but not cards? In fact, it seems to me the cards would be easier to share since you can hand them the ones they need and not the whole deck. This would allow you to share with more people at once, and maybe not have to take them back (till the end of the session - if you want), so, you're not handing a single book around over and over, but handing the players the cards they need once - which they can store in the handy boxes that come with the game so they don't get lost (or wet). If you look at it that way, cards are more sharable than books.
I guess that's what all this really boils down to, how you WANT to see it.
@Erik Bauer
Yes, everybody has his own taste and his opinion. Some people like the cards some don't. I know some people that said that 2ed was 'crap' and they are still playing 1ed. Not everyone must like the 3ed. My pint is that I think that everyone should reserve their final judgment to the release. Indeed, the title really can be assessed only after You play it.
NezziR said:
Let's say I just invented a new kind of raw beef. This new raw beef has many differences. It will cook faster, there is less chance of burning it, and it fits on the bun better. I've included a new spatula that will assist you in cooking it and a new type of fuel for your stove that burns slower and hotter and helps you cook the meat better, making the final product very tasty.
It will be 2 minutes before the first person shows up and says, "Hey, this isn't beef! It's chicken. I want my beef the way it was before. This is going to taste like crap. I hate it."
So I say, "Try it first. It's pure beef, I promise. If you made good burgers before, then they will still be great! Now though, they are easier to make and more fun to eat!"
Chicken Hater: It's not beef, it's going to taste like chicken. It's chicken and you can't make me buy it. I'm going to tell everyone how crappy your new chicken-beef is and I hope your new chicken-beef company dies!
Me: Well, I guess you can make it taste like chicken if you really try. How it tastes is up to the cook. I'm just giving you better beef.
Chicken Hater: You mean chicken don't you?
Me: No, I mean it's beef. It comes from cows. It's just better.
Chicken Hater: I hate your stupid chicken. And what's with all the utensils and fuel? I have a spatula. I don't want your stupid gas.
Me: Well, the beef is best if it is cooked over a slow burning high heat and the new spatula is superior to the old style. Look, it drains the grease as you flip the burger which makes the finished meat taste better!
Chicken Hater: Real beef doesn't need a special spatula or gas. I see that your stupid chicken-beef does though. Perhaps we will get lucky and someone will choke on your chicken-beef and it will destroy your chicken-beef reputation and we can get our old beef back!
Me: Ok, calm down there Beavis. You don't have to use the spatula. You don't have to use the gas. We included it to make the end product as tasty as possible. You can still cook it the way you always did. In fact, we encourage it. It is, after all, the cook that makes the burger special.
Chicken Hater: Well, I hate your spatula and I resent you trying to make me pay more for it.
Me: It's really a minute part of the cost. Most people will want it. It's cheaper for everyone if we just include it in all of the packages.
Chicken Hater: Your new chicken sucks.
Me: Sigh...
Moments later, a potential customer comes in to check out the product.
Me: Hey! Welcome to 'New Beef'.
New Customer: Can you tell me a little about your product?
Me: I'd love to. We've worked really hard to make a great new product. What we've done is...
Chicken Hater: Hey dude. It's not beef, it's chicken. Also, if you eat it you will get gas. Look, there's even a gas can in the package.
Me: Hey...
Chicken Hater: Run dude, don't buy this guys poison chicken. Run and tell everyone you know about the poisonous gassy abomination this guy has created.
New Customer: You know what, I don't know what's going on here, but I don't want to get involved. Good luck with your chicken man.
Me: Sigh...
Later, everyone dies in a horrific explosion when a fuel truck runs out of control and crashes into the new building. The explosion is blamed on the poisonous gas included in the chicken-beef.
The End.
P.S. This has nothing to do with Warhammer. I just thought it was a great story.
strange comparision. I dont trust anyone who boasts to have invented "new beef" (which you can only eat with his new expensive spatula tool) because IMO standard beef is good as it is. Well I am not a fan of TV shopping channels either.
NezziR said:
Erik Bauer said:
Erik Bauer said:
I do not know... but seems probable and a handbook will of course contain careers (hopefully not classes), equipment background and other things. But while with a single Dwarven handbook I can GM 3 groups of 7 players each in 3 different days of the week, SHARING my handbook to whoever asks me it during the game, I simply can't do it with a single deck of Dwarven cards. Most probably some of the players will buy the Dwarven handbook anyway but they will not be forced to do it in order to play my dwarven campaign.
I understand, but I don't agree. Yes, a handbook might contain all the things you said, but so might the 'kit' you mentioned. And, why can you share a handbook, but not cards? In fact, it seems to me the cards would be easier to share since you can hand them the ones they need and not the whole deck. This would allow you to share with more people at once, and maybe not have to take them back (till the end of the session - if you want), so, you're not handing a single book around over and over, but handing the players the cards they need once - which they can store in the handy boxes that come with the game so they don't get lost (or wet). If you look at it that way, cards are more sharable than books.
I guess that's what all this really boils down to, how you WANT to see it.
NezziR said:
Erik Bauer said:
Erik Bauer said:
I do not know... but seems probable and a handbook will of course contain careers (hopefully not classes), equipment background and other things. But while with a single Dwarven handbook I can GM 3 groups of 7 players each in 3 different days of the week, SHARING my handbook to whoever asks me it during the game, I simply can't do it with a single deck of Dwarven cards. Most probably some of the players will buy the Dwarven handbook anyway but they will not be forced to do it in order to play my dwarven campaign.
I understand, but I don't agree. Yes, a handbook might contain all the things you said, but so might the 'kit' you mentioned. And, why can you share a handbook, but not cards? In fact, it seems to me the cards would be easier to share since you can hand them the ones they need and not the whole deck. This would allow you to share with more people at once, and maybe not have to take them back (till the end of the session - if you want), so, you're not handing a single book around over and over, but handing the players the cards they need once - which they can store in the handy boxes that come with the game so they don't get lost (or wet). If you look at it that way, cards are more sharable than books.
I guess that's what all this really boils down to, how you WANT to see it.
Examples of why 7 people + GM playing with the SAME deck of cards will have problems?
1) In a tough fight when lots of important NPCS and Players get wounded you might have too few wounds cards to count ALL the wounds you need
2) Some actions might be used in the same round by both 2-3 PCs and 2-3 NPCs (rough count example). You'd need to pass the same card between players and GM for EACH roll. Yes, you could learn them by mind (ALL of them?) or make copies on spare paper... but it is imho a flaw in the rules+used medium that is there to push players buying more decks
3) Messy gametop with cards all over (during concitated gameplay and fight NO ONE I know would mind keeping the gametop in order) that will make hard finding the right card in no time.
4) Index: Handbooks have an index. Each page has the habit of keeping it's own number and position within the book as time goes on. This allows GMs to quick learn few key page positions in order to quick search those nasty to remember rules or those few tables WFRPV1 and V2 had. Cards, on the other way, even if stacked or if properly collected do not have their OWN place, let alone when layed on the table in the above example. So, even after months or years of gaming you still have to browse the deck in order to find the proper cards. Oh yes, I see... in the Basic kit there are placeholders for keeping useful cards in order... there are 3 of them, sorry for you... your other 4 players WILL HAVE TO buy their own Player's Kit or make their own placeholders to be able to keep everything in place.
And these 4 points came to my mind without even trying the game. Figure out, maybe playing I will find other disadvantages...
That is not how I WANT to see it. This is how I DO see it. And believe me, I really really wish to see it in another way.
I am used, as a GM, to be the only one that HAS to know all the rules (or as many rules as I can). My players could not even know the meaning of their skills and they would be able to play a little game with me. There is no need for players to own handbooks or browse them during gameplay. If they do is because they like to do it. Using this new innovative approach, players MUST use gaming material and MUST know how to use it (ok, that's the lesser problem) and when you have lots of players you're in trouble if you have not enough gaming material. For the same reason, it's easier to GM a quick test session of V2 to people that never played an RPG, it's easier as the only thing I've to bring with me are some pieces of paper, already rolled and compile PC sheets and some D10 dies. I'd do a little intro about the setting and basic rules (how to roll a %die and confront it with a stat). Not whole decks of cards, cardboards and placeholders.
Erik Bauer said:
Actually I AM reading developer diary and I AM reading as much material as I can about V3.
My concern in this post is that the material I have seen in that stand did not look like quality material at all.
Maybe I am overcriticizing, in fact WFRP is my favourite RPG and I'm suffering fear for it's possible fate and evolution. Maybe it's just that. But maybe it's jsut my 6th sense kicking in... telling me somethig basilar is wrong about this game, something I can't precisely identify and name, but something important and visceral.
I tell you: I can't wait to play a proper V3 game and spend hours discussing about it with a person that played it and knows it a lot, in the hope to find it is a good game.
But even then my 6th sense is telling me something has changed for little worse... we will not perceive WFRP in the same way: what happens if you loose 2-3 cards? What happens if your gaming group is made up by 6-7 people? Quick answer? You have to tell them to buy Player's kits. Not all that expensive, yes, but surely more expensive than a couple of D10, a pencil and a piece of paper. Then, maybe in 2 years FFG will pull out a Dwarf Player Kit and a Halfling Player Kit. I know at least one of my players will want to play a proper dwarf and surely will buy it, I as a GM wil buy it. Then one year later comes out the complete Witch Hunter players kit... you get the idea.
Oh, I know, in a normal WFRPV2 situation most probably the Dwarf Handbook would have been more expensive and the player would have bought it anyway... but the phylosophy behind it is different: with one Dwarf Handbook you can play with a WHOLE party of 7 dwarves... with a single Dwarven Players' kit you can't. You have to buy more than one. Got the point? Collectable Roleplayng Card Game... sounds more correct now?
Another advantage point that Handbooks have above card decks is that it is much more difficult to have a handbook page going lost or eaten by dog than a card has. Cards tend to slip, fall under the fridge, being soaked by accidentaly poured coke or beer, mixing them usures them also. Handbooks tend to stay integer for tenths of years (I've very old ones and they're still perusable and usable). But don't be afraid! You can also replace your MiA cards buying Replacement Player's Kit! Collectable Roleplaying Card Game... sounds more plausible now?
You know what? FFG is just applying a strong market strategy: WFRPV2 did not sold enough to keep itself alive? We will make it sell enough by forcing (yes, forcing, not pushing) players and GMs to buy lots of small kits.
Erik Bauer said:
You know what? FFG is just applying a strong market strategy: WFRPV2 did not sold enough to keep itself alive? We will make it sell enough by forcing (yes, forcing, not pushing) players and GMs to buy lots of small kits.
I guess this is the REAL reason behind all this 3rd ed. The 2nd ed. was only a skeleton anymore with a few loyal fans so they want to make it profitable. I guess it was after the core book never a big success - more a piece of labor and love. Definately not enough to please GW so they sold the license, a nearly dead corpus so to say. What we see here with 3rd ed. is the reanimation of WFRP from FFG with their own tried and tested ways to do it. FFG are specialists in producing and marketing profitable LCGs and board games and so we will certainly see a WFRP3 with a bunch of such elements. (like the "witchhunters box" you mentioned)
They clearly aim it a their FFG clients and fans which are used to this typical myriards of add-on boxes and not primarly at the few old WFRP fans. I think its not a bad idea, at least those fans can use use the fluff material and artwork FFG brings out to enhance their old 2nd ed. game. And as collateral benefit an already dead line maybe survives and gets a kind of future.
I completely agree what you say. But this does not mean I like it.
I've always been against modifying or pushing a product just because of commercial decisions. I'm a technician and a "dreamer" and I love things when they are done with the practical result in mind, not with the economical one. That's why I suffered when VHS won over Betamax and PCs eclypsed Amiga.
Now, in the same way I suffer for this change, maybe one day or another I'll purchase and play V3 or V4, as now I have a PC instead of an Amiga who knows... but that does not mean I'll love V3 as I'm loving V2.
You want the truth? I REALLY hope that playing a demo game of 3e will crush my doubts... but I doubt it'll do. (Hey, I have to put it in my signature!)
superklaus said:
strange comparision. I dont trust anyone who boasts to have invented "new beef" (which you can only eat with his new expensive spatula tool) because IMO standard beef is good as it is. Well I am not a fan of TV shopping channels either.
See, this is my point exactly. He never said you can 'only eat it with the special tools', he said that the use of the special tools made it better. That's exactly what's going on here. You don't need the stand ups, the track, even the cards. All of it could be replaced with a PDF. They are just saying they think it's a better way to do it and they hope you will try it before passing judgement. "Here are some great tools to make your game better. Try it, we did. We think it works great."
Ha! I scored one with the stupid beef story! ... but it wasn't talking about Warhammer. Just beef.