I've seen it, at the stand of the official Italian importer/translator of WFRP. The box was open and it's content layered under an expositive "glass box".

I could not touch it but it was there, staring at me... and I could stare at it. Not everything was visible (cards and decks were stacked, booklets were closed) but I could get a first impression nonetheless.

My first tough was: 100€... and you get so few? I mean: a handful of coloured dies, some deck of small (yes, slightly smaller than Magic cards), some carboards and 4 softcover tinysmall booklets that will serve as handbook.

Dies quality seemed to be average and below average were the external quality of booklets (I'm used to V2 ones) whose thickness ranged from Terror in Talabheim to Old World Bestiary (more or less). They weren't piled but I can estimate that piling them you could get a thickness compared to slightly more the one of realms of sorcery.

Cards, as I told before, seemed a bit small, but the thing that disappointed me was the sight of the possible results for the "Melee Attack" action. You basically can Hit, Hit stronger, get an half action bonus or hit so badly that the opponent can disengage you. Now, I obviously don't know all the rules and the meaning of the other dies but as an experienced GM I was expecting much more from those new "storytelling aiding" like system, finding just 4 pre cooked results a bit...well... few and uninspiring. I know... some of you will tell "With %dies you either get hit or non hit, here you have 4 possible results". Yes, of course... but you see, that's the very same thing as using a reference table for your die roll and for a GM improvising a suitable description above a reference table is much harder than improvising a suitable description above a percentile roll. But that's not the discussion this thread is about.

Let's return to my main concern: price. At the same stand you could buy, for 50€ a gorgeously looking Dark Heresy handbook, hardcovered and full of everything (bar dies, blank paper and pencils) you need to start GMing it. And it's almost as thick as Tome of Corruption + Realms of Sorcery with almost 400 pages count. And you can GM as many players you want, you can't loose action-skill-spell cards and your players do not need to buy expencive player's kits in order to be able to have their own dies (Guess what happens if you ever loose a couple of those dies?).

So, far from telling it's a bad game with bad mecanics (I yet have to play it and be sure I will), my first impression about V3 is surely negative and if I'd have to make a decision today I'd surely choose to implement the good ideas and mechanics it has upon the rocksolid V2 thus obtaining my own V2.5 making both my players and my wallet happy. This is, of course, unless my first demo game with V3 will convince me that it is so good that I can forget both it being so different from the old rocksolid one and it's unconvincing commercial-merchandising method.

Erik Bauer said:

100? Store, which I'm using for miniature ordering, demands only 60.

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=cat&cre=rpg-ffg-wfr&cur=eur

(delete link, if it's an advertising)

60€ makes things a little bit better. I've imagined it was 100€ because I red 100US$ over there and I imagined them translated 1:1 to €s as some company does.

Btw I'm still not impressed by the first impression quality of what I've seen.

O ****... I've searched for it.

Were it was?!?!?

Btw I'm still not impressed by the first impression quality of what I've seen.

This just sounds... strange to me. Say what you will about FFG's games but I think most people would agree that their quality and production values really are top notch. For them to suddenly make something of less quality doesn't make sense to me.

You say that the books are of "below average quality", what do mean by that? Simply that they're not hardback or is there something else?

Eirk,

I've stopped buying on the italian market years ago.
The prices are a little... off-scale.

I've found much more convenient to order from US (even with postage dues).

Poe said:

I know it sounds just strange... Dark Heresy handbooks are over the top, quality speaking. By being not positively impressed by V3 booklets I mean just that: they seemed just booklets to me, not handbooks. They are not hardback but it isn't just that, the WFRP companion wasn't either but it did not look like a booklet at all. They mostly reminded me the exterior quality "Death on the reik" campaign and supplement had, maybe a little bit better.

Keep in mind I'm telling my opinion without having a chance to get any near than a meter from them, let alone touch or browse them. I wasn't impressed none the less.

@DeathFromAbove: It was exposed into the "Games" building, at the "Giochi uniti" stand, just next where you could buy Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader handbooks.

DeathFromAbove said:

You see... it's not just the price you have to pay for that, it's the Price/Quality factor... and then it's the Quality factor alone. And it's also that: we WFRP2 players are used to V2 quality standard and we desire the same standard for V3.

But this is just a piece of the whole cake... then comes ruleset quality standard and I won't speak anymore about it until I've properly tested it.

Ok. Well, it'll be interesting getting my hands on it in a month or so (hopefully). Having grown up with Swedish rpgs during the 80's that were always boxed with two or three booklets in a A5 format I guess it doesn't seem strange to me to have v3 using the same style. Actually I kind of welcome it.. Although big hardbacks look and feels great I've always found the smaller booklet format to be more conveniant when you're actually playing.

By the way, when you mention Deah on the Reik, do you refer to the original boxed set?

Yep, I was referencing at it, at least at the Italian version (that AFAIK was not so different from the original one)

I'm still waiting for being able to give my "Hands on" impressions and to play a demo game in order to clear my mind, that right now is half pro and half against.

Yeah, looking forward to reports from you guys who actually get to try it out early. Lucky bastards...

Poe said:

Yeah the demo days can't come soon enough.

I'm actually starting to get worried.

I mean, this game is drawing so much intense dislike from RPG communities ALL over the web (just google WFRP 3, and you'll see). Just about everyone I talk with in my local gaming stores roll their eyes and snort derisively about it.

I mean... with all the massive amounts of negative feedback... is FFG at all concerned? Or are they really THAT confident that the demo days will be successful enough to turn the tide?

Necrozius said:

I doubt they need to seriously worry. They will make bank no matter what.

Even if the game overall gets horrible reviews they have a back out plan in the process. Worst case scenario for them is this.

3E sells like hotcakes, they make lots of money (people will be buying it just to see it and try it), they lose some money on the follow up product and then decide to RESURRECT 2E which causes huge resurgence of departing fans to return and buy the new 2E stuff.

Best case scenario for them is as follows.

3E sells like hotcakes, they make lots of money (people will be buying it just to see it and try it), they make money on the follow up products and eventually the 2E crown buys some of the stuff in cognito to get the fluff information.

Just because I dont like something, doesnt mean it will fail, despite all my secret rituals and pacts with the dark powers.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Frankly, I'm getting embarrassed just bringing up with some of my gaming peers.

I just really hope that WFRP 3rd ed. won't be FFG's Star Wars Prequels (new dice = JarJar Binks).

You-sa throw-sa happy happy dice-sa! You-sa got-sa many many happy hammer-sa! You-sa enjoy-sa lot-sa blood-sa! SPLATT-SA!

Necrozius said:

I don't really see this massive uproar. Sure, a lot of people are upset but that's the knee-jerk reflex when new editions are announced, and most people get more active (venting on the internets) about things they percieve as negative rather than when they see something positive. The people posting here and on StS etc are still a minority and I don't think they are representative of the WFRP fanbase, although they are the most vocal.

In my group for example, I'm the only one who actually frequent forums and fansites (probably because I'm the GM). My friends are all optimistic towards the new edition, and though the proof is in the pudding of what we've seen so far the positive aspects are definitely outnumbering the negative.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that internet forums are kind of dodgy for trying to gauge fanbase reactions.

The guy at my FLGS is a real grognard but he's very positive about WFRP 3.

Gnutten said:

I hate Jar Jar. He's so coarse and... irritating. And he gets EVERYWHERE.

Poe said:

Yeah, new edition rage is standard. This is nothing compared to the backlash against 4ed D&D. The price of the product is the real worry.

Poe said:

Don't just look at the StS and FFG forums there has been quite a lot of negativity from the general RPG community, there has also been some support enough that I suspect the Core Set will sell quite well. As Necrozius says it is a little embarrassing talking about WFRPv3 because so many people have looked at and hated the concept. Out of my group of six and half players one guy is interested the rest think it looks awful. The Core Set supplies three players Jimmy the guy who thinks WFRPv3 looks good has reserved a place, my girlfriend has agreed to buy the game as my Christmas present and reserved a place, however she thinks WFRPv3 looks like crap, my brother has similar views he thinks it looks bad but will give it a go if I buy the game. My brother has his own group of seven people none of whom are the least bit interested. I also play in an online game with five other guys I have asked what they think of WFRPv3 and a torrent of abuse would be an accurate description of their opinions. So between the three groups I am in contact with there are 19.5 people (I always say half a player because Taylor has his lad every other week so only plays half the time), of that 19.5 players four are willing to give WFRPv3 a chance and of that four only one thinks WFRPv3 looks good as i remain unconvinced.

Now I'm not saying that the knowledge I have of the groups I am connected with is in anyway a universal indicator of general feeling and I am equally sure that someone will misunderstand the point of this post and feel the need to quote me and precede to tell us all how 96 people they know have all pre-ordered the game. The point of the post was to demonstrate that there is a lot of negativity about WFRPv3. In my quest to find a cheap UK stockist I emailed a online store who's owner I know slightly to ask if he would stocking WFRPv3 (he stocks Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, WFRPv2 supplements etc..) and his reply was no because WFRPv3 was too expensive and in his opinion had very little demand.

macd21 said:

Nerdrage is common upon a new game and there has been a lot. However what I have witnessed outside of the nerdrage is disinterest. Out of the players I know more are just not interested at all than those that are angry. The guys I play online with their reaction was nerdrage, but most of the people I play with in person just looked at WFRPv3 and went "looks like crap, not interested".

Foolishboy said:

Just curious, what virtual table do you use?

Generaly for my group (6 core people) there isnt much intrest:

While only 3 of us actually ever buy stuff or keep tabs on systems, the other 3 for this dont count in that, sure they will play but realy arent part of the market.

So our rundown of opinions is:
"little Intrest" (2nd ed does what they want)
"If I wanted to play a MMORPG I'd do it on PC where it is done better" - They have some very valid points on the correlation between the systems

Me:
Little interest, but still curious enough to keep tabs as I dont have all the information.

My concern is more about what we arent being told, some of the Design Diaries tell only half the information on the given topic, and honestly I cant realy see why they wouldnt give all the information unless they were concerned that it would be detrimental to how the game is percieved. The lack of information is I think one of the biggest detrimental effects on the system yet.

Loswaith said:

Exactly the problem!!! I don't actually believe they fear it will be detrimental to the system, but they are approaching it as if it was time to give us teaser trailers. However, the system is supposed to be out by the end of November. Really, by now, we should have solid facts and we don't. We have half-baked designer diaries. Grant it, I like what I've seen thus far (except card recharge), but I don't really have enough information about how that'll work. As a short list of what we do know is as follows:

1) Funky dice give varying results with the potential of success with complications and failures with benefits gained.

2) Career selection and career shifting is done off four words and the xp cost is determined off of that.

3) A good, loose generation system allowing PC'S to customize in unprecedented ways as compared to 2e.

4) Clerics will have to invoke favor to cast spells.

5) Initiative is off party selection instead of off each character's individual actions.

6) The Skill List.

7) How monster's work and the inclusion of Mook rules (though not at all required, just an option for those who want horde tension instead of tense one on one fights.

8) A few vague special rules of major beasties (most of which doesn't make sense).

9) A Stance meter influences dice and the token has to be kept track of turn to turn/scene to scene.

10) Fortune Points go all kinds of crazy ways.

11) There will be party sheets, but what kind of party sheets there will be, we have no idea.

12) How to hit rolls and damage is calculated (all though, we don't really know how that truly works since the example to hit card mentions something about an opposed resolution check and we don't actually know how that works).

13) How money works and the tiers and social classes of the Warhammer world?

14) Wounds are done on cards and you flip them over when you get a critical.

That's about it. This leaves tons and tons and tons of nuts and bolts about the system left out. Really, did we need an economics of Warhammer diary before we got a magic system? Especially about something this controversial? I don't know, it just seemed less important to me. I also don't understand why we were get three diaries a week and now we're getting only one a week.

The dice are fantastic and anyone who thinks they can get those kind of results from an MMORPG are just plain silly. I can see where the cards may seem to tie into it for them, as I have pointed out in other threads I can totally see where they're coming from, but Warhammer has a lot of merits in the dice, initiative, party cards and character creation system. I'd say all of that is way better than second. I'd say the majority of it is actually thus far, but I really don't have a clear enough understanding of combat to say it is 100% better. The old system (with modifications) was fantastic at combat...this one, I have no idea.

I really wish they would release more info. The other thing about groups is groups are groups and they follow pack mentality because of it. Thanks to the Internet, the pack mentality of gaming seems to overpower reason and personal choice more often then not. So if the majority of one forum says Warhammer 3e sucks, then it sucks. Right now, the most bitter people come online just to complain. People who like it generally shy away as afraid of being either disapproved by the group or don't want to fight. They just move on to other groups who approve of their choices. Warseer.com is a great example of this. 40K lives and dies by that sight.

So largely, I think the 3e haters don't outway the lovers or the disinterested. I agree that the price point might be a little high, but again, people are just fooling themselves. 4e plus dice comes in at a bout 100 bucks as well. They all do. One game + Suppliment + dice is always 100 bucks. You do get the cards that cover dozens of pieces of information. Also, if you look at the original post he says the decks have less than a magic deck. Well that's simply untrue. Magic has 60 cards roughly in a deck (40 is generally tournament standard). If you look at the stuff included in the box set for the Emperor's Call you'll see it includes 157 Actions cards alone. That's over double the number of cards in a magic deck. I believe the box set comes with 300 cards. A magic starter deck is roughly 10 bucks for sixty cards. If that's the case this game includes 300 cards which is about 5 starter decks, which is 50 USD! Now if you add in the cost of the manuals (30 dollar value, give or take), plus the character sheet pad (normally 10 bucks when sold seperately), plus 36 custom dice (roughly 30 USD), plus the counters, you get a total of 120 USD buying these components for various games. So no, the price isn't ridiculous.

Also, most of the negativity about the game is over aesthetics and picky, picky, little gripes...for instance:

1)The book is not hard back, they're too small, they don't "feel" like manuals. Well actually, back in the early days of gaming, these were manuals. A hardback monstrosity wouldn't "feel" right to those people back then either. So it's being picky for being picky's sake and actually is not a reflection of the system at all or the game, just the manuals. If the greatest game in the world was written on a three by five index card, would you not play it simply because it didn't "feel" like a manual.

2) The system uses different dice. really? Do people complain that PC games use PC controls and Console games use controllers? Do they really complain that they can't use a blender to cook a steak? I'm sorry, it's just picky and really, really pointless. They're not complaining that the new results won't be any better or worse than stanard RPG'S, they're just complaining that they need them. Sorry, your halo video game won't let you also play Grand Theft Auto, but that's money you're willing to shell out for a game you can only use "one way" too.

3) This is like 4e. Sorry, it's not. It's entire system is not based on a horribly outdated magic system with limited uses of once per day and other various junk. It's just not. It's not limited by classes. You don't get hit points off your level...as a matter of a fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with 4e other than they both use cards, period.

4) They killed 2e. Again, it's not a reflection on 3e's system, it's simply a reflection on how it isn't 2e. Well, 2e apparently wasn't selling or ffg would have kept making products for it. For instance, it would be super-stupid for Microsoft to stop making Windows because it sells. If it ever stopped selling, they would switch systems. Would the 2e people rather never have any more Warhammer because the line doesn't sell just to keep with their beloved 2e or would they rather have Warhammer being played.

5) Like an MMO. Honestly, the only MMO aspect I've seen is the recharge on the action cards. Also, everything about an MMO comes from RPG'S. Sorry, it does. Spell points and spell points that recharge and each spell costing a certain amount of spell points to cast harkens back to at least 1st edition warhammer rpg...this is the same as a mana pool and casting exhausts mana pool. Mana pool must recharge so more powers can cast. Recharge is what it is, and I do feel like it's the greatest short-coming of 3e, but again, we have to wait and see.

However, I totally agree this system needs a lot more information and maybe, it'll swing the negatives back to the positives.

I suspect the disintrested out weigh both the lovers and haters of the 3rd ed combined, so its not likely a good demographic to use.