Had a question come up tonight about Chaos:Sadistic Mutation and I believe the Dark Elf Sorceress ability of -1/-2 HP for a Unit for a turn. The crux is the length of time. Since it only applied for the Chaos players turn (attacking), that is why we didn't believe it would insta-kill a 1 HP unit.

Does this ability "insta-kill" units that only have 1 HP, or does it temporarily dis-able the target units ability to defend?

We played it as being able to basically by-pass the defending units defense, like being corrupted.

Fletchgrooves said:

Do you mean Sadistic Mutation or Horrific Mutation? From the wording, I think you mean the latter (given the "attacking" mention)

"SM:

Forced: After the attached unit deals damage in combat, deal 1 damage to one target unit or capital."

"HM:

While attached unit is attacking, defending units get -1 hit points."

For Horrific Mutation, from BGG:

"Support
Attachment

While attached unit is attacking, defending units get -1 hit points.

The way I see it there are 3 possible ways to interpret this when dealing with defenders with 1 HP.

A) As soon as a hp 1 unit is declared as a defender it dies, and does not get to deal damage
B) HP1 defender participates in combat, but automatically dies when damage is resolved at end of combat, even if no damage is assigned to it.
C) Participates in combat, but does not die unless at least 1 damage has been assigned to it."

www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/456817

Majority (including me, though I haven't posted in the thread) seems to incline toward option A. Of course, you don't have to declare 1 HP unit (or any other units) as defender if you don't want.

EDIT: Vile Sorceress. Hadn't really given the Helf/Delf cards a thorough look, would her Forced (if she's in the Quest zone) mean she'll kill a Unit with 1 HP left? I don't think you can have a Unit with 0 HP on the board. At least not until Undeads come out .

Iin the BGG thread linked above is a reference to page 7 of the rules that discusses when a unit has damage equal to its HP it is destroyed. with 0 HP, you would be equal to 0 DMG and thus destoyed as soon as declared. As Darren points out later in the thread the design of the card is to cause the Chaos opponent to NOT throw chump defenders up.

That is what I was assuming the use of the card was and make sense.

And yes, I meant the Horrific Mutation attachment card.

Thanks!

Damon points out it was intended for 1HP units not to be declared. Just saying.

So the -1 hp affects all defenders? Is that right?

I am quite sure that it instant kills the affected unit.

Yes, if it's a 1HP and it declares itself as a defender.

I guess Vile Sorceress also works the same way? Does it kill any 1hp unit?

Lafi said:

EDIT: Nevermind, you were talking about the DE Unit of that name. Yeah, seems to work that way.

Yes. Vile Sorcerous x3 in a DE deck? Um, yes please.

If the atacker with Sadistic Mutation becomes the atacking unit immediatly after it was declared than the defenders are defending units immediatly after they are declared and the effect is instant, but if they become atacking and defending only in assign damage(when the actual battle begins) than the 1 hp defending unit could assign damage and die afterwards.
In the rule book there is no reference to when the battle begings and when the atackers becomes atacking.

Combat begins the moment a player declares which zone they are attacking. An attacker becomes an attacker the moment they are declared as such. A defender becomes a defender the moment he is declared as such. The assign and apply damage phases have nothing to do with who or when someone is declared an attacker or defender.

Clearly you haven't understood me. Of course the units are the atackers after they are declared, but they are not in "atacking" state , they couldn't be, the defenders are not even yet declared there is no defending units isn't it ? The effect aplies only on an atacking unit . When the atackers becomes atacking ?

Slapul said:

I would say Unit is attacking once declared as attacker (step 2) and a Unit is defending, vulnerable to HM when declared as defender (step 3). You can have a combat even with no defenders, doesn't make attackers any less attacking.

Dam said:

well than i have to say it's against any logic i stated before, you have to prove that not just say it, why is it so ?

Slapul said:

Which part do you want proven? Combat without defenders is obvious, since otherwise you could always decline to defend and no damage would be done if that were true. For when they become "attacking", there is nothing which can prove it one way of the other, I'm just going by how I feel it works. Attackers = attacking, defenders = defending upon declaration. Not just saying it to pucker up to dormouse .

Slapul said:

If this was true anything that modified the power of attacking units would have no real effect. If the damage was already assigned to the pool before the attacking state kicked in waagh! for example would do no extra damage. The units would gain the power but since damage was in the pool prior to them gaining the extra power the extra power wouldn't add in extra damage. Obviously this is not how things work.

You could argue that their was a subperiod prior to assigning damage were attacking kicked in but regardless of whether it occurs at the declare defenders step or the assign damage step it has to occur before damage is generated or tons of cards are broken. If it occurs prior to damage being generated the 1 hp unit would be dead before it could add to the damage pool.

I cannot argue with any of your statements i have no real proof to what i'm saying but in the rule book on declaring defenders for example : it says that you declare the units that "are going to defend" so what i meant was that the HM is not intended to kill the defenders (1hp deffeders) instanly, but instead give the attacking units an advantage to kill them easier.

Ratcur : if what you're saying is that the power is in pool before the modify attack is taking place, than that is not what i mean. I'm thinking that at the begining of assign damage the fight actually begins and every effects take place simultaneously and any phase has to be completed before any changes could emerge , for example : if i want to declare 2 defenders and the first is 1 hit point unit , the phase cannot interrupt so he can be killed according to the rule (if a unit has damage equal to hit points in this case 0=0 ), he would be killed before i finish the phase (declare defenders), so i guess assign damage is one phase in witch all effects and power going to the pool are simultaneously .

Attackers become attackers after they are declared as such. Before the end of that window they are all attackers. Defenders become defenders after they are declared as such. Before the end of that window they are all defenders. Horrific Mutation kills as a passive following the resolution of the declaration.

None of your reasoning is supported by word or implication in the rules. We have two windows devoted to declaring units as attackers and defenders. We have no wording in the rules which designates these units as attacking or defending other than these windows. QED. It isn't a matter of us having to prove you are incorrect, you must illustrate where in the rules that your view is supported. We've shown specifically where in the rules our position comes from not by analogy but by the wording of the rules. If you can't do the same I suggest you send it to Nate for clarification.

Slapul said:

You seem to have no idea what constant effect is. It doesn't interrupt anything.

Try using the same timing with other cards that modifying "attacking" units. Waagh for example. If the phase has to be completed before changes can emerge then waagh adds power but not damage.

I should point out I really love this card. Not because of the kill, but because of the way it limits my opponents options.