I'm using X-wing for my Star Wars RPG and I like things like narrative campaigns and the occasional casual game. The viable mentality comes from tournament play and mostly from CCGs. I don't play table top games for that reason. I'm not saying it's wrong but I hate when it becomes the driving force behind a game. Give me more ships even if they aren't meta. Especially if they aren't meta.

Guys, aren't you exaggerating a bit? Some people want to fly casual, use fun builds, play narrative campaigns etc. Some are here to talk about making the best list for a tournament though, and guess what, they have every right to be. Yes, all ships can be used, but some of them will fall through in a 6/7 round tournament. If someone suggests using a tie-advanced without the Raider fix, calling it "not viable" is a reasonable reaction.

Why is there a problem with viability, anyway (other then the fact that it can be used to stifle innovation, but that's really a gray area)? I don't see people on the forum using it unless they're talking about a ship being used competitively, and what's wrong with that? If you like Scyks, you go ahead and fly Scyks, you may even luck out/fly like a master and win a small tournament with them and great for you. But if I see someone posting a list with 5x Mangler Scyks and someone asking "what do you think?" I'm gonna respond with "No, man, you're gonna get wrecked with that 9/10 times, Scyk's are just not viable.".

I wouldn't say "get wrecked" I'd more say "A Syck is a good flanker, but too many points into too fragile a ship will make you overly glass cannony.

Better to explain why than to say no.

For me, viable simply means "you aren't wasting your points taking this".

more importantly, "you aren't wasting your time if you are at all interested in winning"

some people aren't, some people are

"Not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal."

Wow. That escalated quickly...

We need a "politically correct redneck" meme here xD

Calling funplay "sleeping with one's sister" is a new approach to it

Seriously though his sister is amazing.

You might be a redneck Jedi if...

1. You ever heard the phrase, "May the force be with y'all."

But the HWK Blasterswarm could be a pirate force (before scum and villainy was even a thing) used by the GM to represent pirates you are tangling with. And your starfighter squadrons losses are recorded....

I say this because once I made a merc HWK swarm - pre scum and villainy to send against my - at the time autothrusterless friends Interceptor team. He won, so the players got a bonus towards what they were doing on the ground, but a member of eclipse went down without ejecting so they lost a pilot.

Please don't assume we all play 100 point face off.

Been over two years since I built anything under 300'ish points... EPIC Baby!

For Narratve, points are used as more of a guideline... sometimes being with in 50 to 100 is fine. Not every battle should be a 3-600 point epic, skirmishes make up the most of wars. My format is the narrative, mission based, plot based more so than even points. To the point that even in a normal game I make a habit of rolling to see if a pilot ejects or dies in flame.

This said though. Once i've sorted my new cards into their decks etc i must get a photo of battlegroup Pathfinder to post on here. I've got mai two gozers now. Larger than I thought they'd be.

The Thunderchild and Didact look VERY nice next to The Huntress and the Pathfinder.

Steele Fox... one of my games. Huge -ass 5x5 game area with three ships hunting for a Probe... in turn three start rolling to see if up to half a dozen ships come to retrieve it... surprise it was here to be picked up and yes it knows where your secrete asteroid relay stations are!

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Dat STORY Glory!

When I run a campaign, my friends know that it'll be militaristic and gritty. One day I'll run a vanilla D&D game, make it twee and cheerful and watch them stumble in confusion.

I always have after action followup. Be it S&R missions to recover ejected pilots, or some kind of roll to decide fate (usually both, an eject roll, a ship retrieval roll (incase an expensive tricked out ship can be salvaged) and repair rolls.

Eject roll: On a D20 typically. For a generic 11+ on a D20 they live, roll under that. then dead. Should they survive - well who won that battle, who has ships there? nearest guy might send a shuttle to capture. Do the other team have the chance or ability to stop them? cool Combat S&R mission. (works in reverse too, other teams can scupper S&R missions or capture missions).

For An ace, either they get a free pass or a 15+ roll allows it. OR if I am feeling nasty on a campaign both generics and uniques get either a 5 or 10+ but Aces get a reroll.

Retrieve... More used by Rebel and scum. I usually allow a multi-upgrade mechanic based on repair rolls in D20. Obviously if the final hit was an ion there is a modifier (lot easier to retrieve). This can also lead to S&R environs. Sometimes secondary objectives come up, like capturing rare ships for study.

But if I see someone posting a list with 5x Mangler Scyks and someone asking "what do you think?" I'm gonna respond with "No, man, you're gonna get wrecked with that 9/10 times, Scyk's are just not viable.".

Insert Jennifer Lawrence "Yeah, Sure, OK" gif here.

YUP Yup... and in game I allow for levels of Veterans. Starting at PS 3 you get the option to have another MOD on your ship. This goes up for better pilots.

So in my games Han can have up to four MODS. 1 plus three for his PS.

Of course Boost- Barrel Roll and Hotshot Blaster all come for FREE... (It's THE *****in FALCON Dats Why!) then I pick up to four more specific for missions; because I can do dats.

DAM-Rights!

I'm out of likes, but absolutely. Han needs a /Scum pilot. Probably should never be allowed in a list with Boba though.

Mixing D20 with Xwing -for me- worked phenomenally.

I'd like to do Imp assault but, despite being made by same publisher it doesn't quite mesh as well.

I'm out of likes, but absolutely. Han needs a /Scum pilot. Probably should never be allowed in a list with Boba though.

Mixing D20 with Xwing -for me- worked phenomenally.

I'd like to do Imp assault but, despite being made by same publisher it doesn't quite mesh as well.

I'm a D10 man myself... but yeah.

Didn't realize there was a Star wars D10 System. I know only of the old WEG D6 and the WOTC D20. FFG's is D8/custom dice I thought?(and I didn't get along with that, got along more than my friends but...)

Didn't realize there was a Star wars D10 System. I know only of the old WEG D6 and the WOTC D20. FFG's is D8/custom dice I thought?(and I didn't get along with that, got along more than my friends but...)

Wuz takin bout rolls for decides-stuff in games.

You gonna find dat dam Probe or what?

Got PS 7 and I am at range three of the metal-monster. Okay roll dat 70% on D10.

Rolls a 56... he is right behind you clinging to that huge asteroid, and when it rolls around he's gonna shoot you!

Ahh, see for my campaigns I hybridized. My players were either firefly in space rebels or an imperial commando unit depending on the campaign.

For all their ground stuff/scanner stuff/non x-wing stuff Star wars D20.

I translated piloting as a skill + feats into a PS for when they flew something.

For any imperial fighter assistance / a squadron of rebel ships they had overall command with. X-wing.

Repair checks were used to upgrade ships/add lost hull points/salvage b0rked ships.

Let me tell you, the players came to love their pilots. A loss of a TIE Interceptor was bad. One of my friends was genuinely concerned when his squadron's T/I ace was at 1 hull and had force a planetary landing. We rescued her, got the ship flightworthy...

Dramatic.

Hel-Nah... I'm gonna play me two or tree super-meta 20 minute 100 point games and revel in my ADD!

I know you are being sarcastic there

I can do those now and again, but a battle or fight without a meaning, a narrative doesn't work for me. Doesn't matter what game either. If there is no point engaging that squadron, why risk the lives of your pilots?

If you have to secure a freight lane, or escort a troop transport or evacuees sure.

I'm out of likes, but absolutely. Han needs a /Scum pilot. Probably should never be allowed in a list with Boba though.

Actually both YTs and even some "rebel" HWKs are scum. Not rebel scum, but simply Scum

I'm out of likes, but absolutely. Han needs a /Scum pilot. Probably should never be allowed in a list with Boba though.

Actually both YTs and even some "rebel" HWKs are scum. Not rebel scum, but simply Scum

Yes. They need scum faction pilot cards.

I'm out of likes, but absolutely. Han needs a /Scum pilot. Probably should never be allowed in a list with Boba though.

Actually both YTs and even some "rebel" HWKs are scum. Not rebel scum, but simply Scum

Yes. They need scum faction pilot cards.

alas, ain't gonna happen.

PS9 quota reached already :C

YUP Yup... and in game I allow for levels of Veterans. Starting at PS 3 you get the option to have another MOD on your ship. This goes up for better pilots.

So in my games Han can have up to four MODS. 1 plus three for his PS.

Of course Boost- Barrel Roll and Hotshot Blaster all come for FREE... (It's THE *****in FALCON Dats Why!) then I pick up to four more specific for missions; because I can do dats.

DAM-Rights!

Oooooh... So you basically play a different game than those who play competitive 100 point who claim to know what is and is not viable. Makes sense.

Well, I am not saying there is any player on these forums who has a true claim to know exactly what is and is not viable. But having said that, you do realize that players who play competitively have to play by the printed rules, correct? And that they choose to because they enjoy the game that way? That really does make some ships much harder to use well compared to others, believe it or not.

I can't express this enough to you Joe- people who enjoy the game differently than you do not enjoy it incorrectly, as topics like this seem to indicate. Their discussion of what is and what is not "viable" is enjoyable to them, and often, when they make comments like that, it's because players are seeking them out, so they can determine for themselves if that is true or not. In fact, it often brings up great debate and ideas concerning the ship which is considered not viable, inspiring players to put it on the board again to try to make it work.

We aren't all here for just theme giddiness. But just so you can see how much I enjoy discussing the competitive side of X-wing, as well as what ships are or are not viable-

DEM 100 POINT BATTLES WHERE YOU FOLLOW DA RULES AND STUFFS AND FLY TO WIN BECAUSE ITS FUNS TO YOU! THEN DISCUSS WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE GOOD AND NOT GOOD BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE ON A FORUM DEDICATED TO THAT TYPE OF DISCUSSION! :D :wub:

Sorry... Maybe that was a bit much...

I still have to point out that fun can be viable and viable can be fun. Fluff and crunch go well together in this game, and there are very few instances of autoincludes and non viable ships.

You more or less have to either overspecialize a list of build specifically to fail.

I still have to point out that fun can be viable and viable can be fun. Fluff and crunch go well together in this game, and there are very few instances of autoincludes and non viable ships.

You more or less have to either overspecialize a list of build specifically to fail.

No doubt this is the truth. And fun can be had with "not viable" and vice versa, even if there are very, very few truly non viable ships. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Even in competitive games.

The issue I have with the term 'viable', and it's perhaps coming from a far worse case of the same symptoms in regards to 40k, is that it tends to go hand in hand with a set of assumptions that are not really that helpful. It's come up a few times in this thread that, compared to Worlds-winning lists and (equally importantly, players), there are ships that aren't going to hold up. Fair enough. But 99.99% of the players in this game (or any game) aren't going to come up against either that kind of list or that calibre of player, especially not in combination. What you might see at a local gaming store is likely wildly different to what you'd see at a world, national or even regional tournament, unless you have a permanently competitive local scene.

Then there's the inverse of that; there tends to be an assumption that while your opponent will be both exceptionally skilled, and playing a very powerful list, the person asking about something is neither. Again, this might be something that comes more from 40k, but there's an assumed (and false) correlation between bad units/ships and bad players, which is rubbish. You can be an excellent player who builds lists that aren't built with more than basic thought to 'what works and with what', and you can be a terrible player with a 100% optimised list.

The reality is that the vast majority of players will be somewhere towards the middle of these spectra, and that if you're assuming that of the person asking 'is X viable', you must also assume that of the people they'll be playing. So if someone asks (for example, no idea how relevant this is) 'is an Ion Cannon turret Y-wing viable', it makes sense to assume that (unless stated otherwise) the question is meaning 'can I take this to a game night and have fun with it?', and not 'Can I beat literally the hardest list and the best player in the world with this?', but that's rarely the approach people take. It seems to be that people will assume the best case scenario for the hypothetical opponent and the worst case for the player asking, which I just don't find conducive to helpful conversation.

Lastly, I'd just add that every model in every gaming system ever can be used effectively. So long as you have at least some kind of stat that you can do something with, that is inherently better than playing that many points down. In X-wing's case, imagine a ship with 2 Hull, 1 Attack and 1 Agility. Say it costs 5 points. That's 5 points of utter crap, but it's still better than 5 points unused, so if someone wants to use this ship (for whatever reason;aesthetics, fluff, an idea for a strategy), they should be encouraged to, not told 'don't bother'. In general, I always find that a positive rather than negative approach to stuff like this is always more helpful. If the question is 'how do I run X-wings?', the discussion needs to be about how to get the most from them, flaws though they might have, not the asker being repeatedly told that they're not worth using.