If you can't read the whole post, or can't understand the meaning of quoting, don't do it.

Stresshog's problem is that it severely...nonono, SEVERELY lowers list diversity.

not to the Whisper levels, of course, but somewhere near.

Dat 'umie iz still 'ere?

Zog dat 'umie to da airlock!!!

Says the guy who has failed to understand my posts.

I get it you hate stressbot. It's the new hotness... even though it's not new at all. It's been around in one form or another since most wanted dropped. It got better with TLT but it's still been there. Now that it's on top tables and your playgroup is adopting it doesn't make your anecdata any more valuable to any discussion because it's anecdotal. My playgroup had brobots, Fat Han/Dash, or Soontir+something else for a very long time is that bad for diversity? I don't know but I can't replicate what I see in my group to the entire playerbase. Nor do I presume to. Currently we rarely see stressbot. Everyone has access to it, everyone knows its there but we rarely play it. Why? because it's not that fun to fly. So we've adapted and Palp+Aces is the old but new again hotness in my play group along with Integrated Astromech shenanigans.

I'm saying that if you hate stressbot so much make a list that defeats it soundly. If you do that enough your playgroup will realize it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread and branch back out. Don't try to nerf the game because of something in your playgroup is a problem.

It's basically the same as saying "you know, YYYY has been for a while, but they were not TLT before"

It's a completely different machine whatsover. It's 1 point more expensive and really much more brutal.

But yeah, keep up with the "has been around" if you wish. Range 2 or range 3, who cares! [/sarcasm]

The "not fun to fly" is just a level of competitive play of particular meta.

There are only 2 lists that don't care. Swarm and TLT spam.

and TLT spam comes in two varieties, with rebel one having less hard counters, what I call "bantacrap rebel biased imbalance"

"Why nerf game when you just can make sure such bantacrap doesn't crawl out in the first place" is the question I can't see the FFG answering at all.

YV was born into meta where even PWTs are dead meat. And it's even less damage mitigating, with even lower PS and not a PWT.

Firespray has pilots better than Imp ones to my taste, but it's still a not cost effective flying sarcophagus.

Brobots are there, yep, but guess what? They see the stress-lists as one of their arch-nemesis, although not as much as Super Dash

I'm saying that if you hate stressbot so much make a list that defeats it soundly.

Which is sound advice in any case where a certain build is dominating. Design a list full of hate and take it down, at the risk of losing to everything else. Then do it again. And again.

What I'm trying to figure out here, is what aces people are running that struggle to get behind/out-of-arc of a Y-wing? Getting out of a Y-wings arc has literally been a part of the game since Wave 1. Yes, it's a slightly scarier arc than it was back then, and yes if you park your expensive action-dependent ship in front of it, it's probably going to have a bad time, but seriously, the stresshog is one of the few ways to directly counter aces without getting into the PS-bid war. It lets you run a swarm with some ace insurance, and ultimately leads to more variety in list building since you can't rely on the super-est of all the aces to beat everything.

Doesn't that seem like a good thing?

Edited for grammar

I'm saying that if you hate stressbot so much make a list that defeats it soundly.

Which is sound advice in any case where a certain build is dominating. Design a list full of hate and take it down, at the risk of losing to everything else. Then do it again. And again.

If the list diversity is as bad as warpman claims then a hard counter list would be very effective. If it's not effective then there is more diversity than he claims. If he refuses to adapt which seems to be the case then well, nothing is going to change his mind and he'll simply stay mad that he can't win playing with his ships the way he wants to play them.

The problem is with the range 3 from tlt. It was fine when iy had to be range 1-2, same with tactitian (only 2) but giving 2 auto stress at range 3?

Not broken but very powerful vs non swarm lists

On the topic of rebel yyyy vs imp aces

You've got two high level players there and the rebels get evicerated, against a list the stressbot should terrorize.

The problem is with the range 3 from tlt. It was fine when iy had to be range 1-2, same with tactitian (only 2) but giving 2 auto stress at range 3?

Not broken but very powerful vs non swarm lists

add "for just 26 points"

and

"in every rebel list"

"doesn't suck at jousting"

and you see the full problem.

A super-effective tool for dealing with too many things that isn't too narrow to be dead weight, like some specific "KILL WHISPER" HWKs.

Adjust your playstyle or list to beat the stressbot or continue to fail.

Translating it

"Play TLT spam or swarm if you don't want to suck rebel stress"

with TLT spam working better in rebel hands and swarm being empire thing

...

as a S&V player I say "Zog dat 'umie to da airlock"

TLT is not what this thread is about. TLT =/= Stressbot. TLT has a role to play in stressbot but we aren't discussing TLT on this thread.

S&V don't have the largest number of options to work with when it comes to dealing with anything atm. They are the newest faction thus they are behind in the number of options they have available. I'm not a scum player so I can't speak intelligently as to what they have available as an answer to stressbot. Fly the space camel (YV-666)? I'm pretty sure two rounds of shooting from a bossk led ship can blow up a single y-wing and Bossk doesn't really care too much about stress. Concentrated fire by aces will take it out in like 2 rounds. It's like a beefier biggs but you choose to shoot at it instead of being forced to. Or you can stay out of it's arc.

If you have a complaint about the TLT there are various threads discussing it that have been posted... Or you know, you can make another.

Stresshogs with Ion cannon have existed for a long time and no one batted an eye.

But it's literally only since Heaver flew the TLT version on worlds that people just go totally memememe about it!

My god there are really more dangerous ships at 26 points, like Omega leader or Jake Farell for example.

You literally gamble that your 2 stress on an ace enough to bring it down. If it escapes, the hog will not do a lot more that game i'm afraid...

What I'm trying to figure out here, is what aces people are running that struggle to get behind/out-of-arc of a Y-wing? Getting out of a Y-wings arc has literally been a part of the game since Wave 1. Yes, it's a slightly scarier arc than it was back then, and yes if you park your expensive action-dependent ship in front of it, it's probably going to have a bad time, but seriously, the stresshog is one of the few ways to directly counter aces without getting into the PS-bid war. It lets you run a swarm with some ace insurance, and ultimately leads to more variety in list building since you can't rely on the super-est of all the aces to beat everything.

Doesn't that seem like a good thing?

Edited for grammar

Getting out of arc, when you have 4 or 5 green modified dice to hide behind wasn't as much as a problem. But those 2 unavoidable stresses are.

I don't think scum is affected as badly as you think. We do have the best non turret large bases with our nice Firespray pilots, the YV-666 and of course Brobots. We have the generic (unlike Kyle Kartan) K4 Security droid that allows us to modify attack dice while stressed. Imperial and Rebel options are hit a lot worse in my opinion.

YV was born into meta where even PWTs are dead meat. And it's even less damage mitigating, with even lower PS and not a PWT.

Firespray has pilots better than Imp ones to my taste, but it's still a not cost effective flying sarcophagus.

Brobots are there, yep, but guess what? They see the stress-lists as one of their arch-nemesis, although not as much as Super Dash

Do you know that from experience or is that you gut feeling? I honestly had no problem versus quad TLT with my 51 point Bossk. He can very easily, by the power of large base bosst, jump from just outside range 3 into range one, where he won't have to fear TLTs anymore. I would agree on the Firesprays if it weren't for Boba pulling this of even more brutaly.

The "not fun to fly" is just a level of competitive play of particular meta.

There are only 2 lists that don't care. Swarm and TLT spam.

and TLT spam comes in two varieties, with rebel one having less hard counters, what I call "bantacrap rebel biased imbalance"

"Why nerf game when you just can make sure such bantacrap doesn't crawl out in the first place" is the question I can't see the FFG answering at all.

WHERE is a rebel biased imbalance in X-Wing? Empire and rebels win about an equal rate at tournaments and Scum also gets its fair share. So where and how is this showing a meta biased in any way??? This is just complete nonsense!

Empire has just as many competitive lists and options as Rebels, and will soon have more!

And if you personally have to face one Stresshog list after another in your area and can't handle it, do what Dagonet says and build a counter. Ships that don't give a **** about stress like the VT-49, or play a Crackswarm for a while. They will stop playing Stresshogs automatically if you teach them a good lesson or two!

Or you can just hang on to your one aces list (what is it that you fly? Palpmobile?) and lose against a counter that Stresshog is!

Control is a vital aspect of the game and the game is stronger for it. All I would like to see is the gap in cost efficiency and effectiveness between a 26pt Stresshog and literally any other stress dealer in the game become a lot smaller. It would be nice to see some competitive and comparable options available for other factions.

I don't think scum is affected as badly as you think. We do have the best non turret large bases with our nice Firespray pilots, the YV-666 and of course Brobots. We have the generic (unlike Kyle Kartan) K4 Security droid that allows us to modify attack dice while stressed. Imperial and Rebel options are hit a lot worse in my opinion.

YV was born into meta where even PWTs are dead meat. And it's even less damage mitigating, with even lower PS and not a PWT.

Firespray has pilots better than Imp ones to my taste, but it's still a not cost effective flying sarcophagus.

Brobots are there, yep, but guess what? They see the stress-lists as one of their arch-nemesis, although not as much as Super Dash

Do you know that from experience or is that you gut feeling? I honestly had no problem versus quad TLT with my 51 point Bossk. He can very easily, by the power of large base bosst, jump from just outside range 3 into range one, where he won't have to fear TLTs anymore. I would agree on the Firesprays if it weren't for Boba pulling this of even more brutaly.

Spoiler with YV-666 things and my whine about FAQ daredevil

On YV-666 in relation to Stresshog

And just a story about "how we spent our saturday, trying to prove that rebel TLTs aren't an autowin against 1 evade bossk

P.S?

I can't say it's good. I can't say it's a thing that makes the balance healthier and meta more diverse.

From rebel perspective? Sure thing, it makes life extraordinarily easier.

Just take it in most lists and you suddenly worry much less about enemy aces. It has a HUGE NO-GO zone.

You just deny the enemy a huge portion of the field, don't have problems with jousting with the thing (It would have been logical for the thing to be sucky against jousters, but hell no, it isn't! When no ace is present, it works like any X-wing. 1 forward-1forward-K-turn. rince repeat

For 26 points. What can you get for 26 points? A B-wing? Won't help much

An AT T-70 X-wing? Surely isn't the best choice.

I don't say "nerf" I just say "thing is simply too good for the points, they should have thought about the consequences"

with FFG in most cases being overly cautious even with fixes it's just ridiculous.

It can't be a mistake, that's a clear intention: drive out all action-dependent lists from the meta.

Will it bring jousters back to the game? maybe.

Is it a fix for ordnance? aka "kill ace meta because we can't fix ordnance otherwise?"

Maybe.

The good sides?

I just don't see it yet. Even being an awful disguisting hater of the acewing, I can't say it's a good thing for the game.

Will joustwing return in a blaze of glory, step onto the ashes of player's butts burned to cinders and start a new age?

MAYBE.

and some more rant about jouster life scyking banta balls.

I think what the Stresshog also teaches us, is that we've become (as a group) way to dependant on actions.

I'd like the game to move a little more towards rewarding planning.

Warpman is a S&V player, how would three Khir#@#$xzes fare? Talonbane, Glitterstim, Predator, 2 x BSA, Glitterstim, Wingman.

13 points left over to play around with.

Control is a vital aspect of the game and the game is stronger for it. All I would like to see is the gap in cost efficiency and effectiveness between a 26pt Stresshog and literally any other stress dealer in the game become a lot smaller. It would be nice to see some competitive and comparable options available for other factions.

Rebel Captive (3)

Sigma Squadron Pilot (25)

Tactician (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Tactician (2)

Mara Jade (3)

TIE Shuttle (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Tactician (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Total: 105

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

As you can see Empire has plenty of options below 30 points. Some also can double stress.

They also have a few tricks that Rebels don't have! Captive is very efficient against aces as they mostly shoot first. Mara Jade is an AOE stress.

So the possibilities are pretty endless, you just need to try them out.

The experience i have made however is that at 26 points most imperial players prefer other stuff! So these ships hardly get a chance!

What I'm trying to figure out here, is what aces people are running that struggle to get behind/out-of-arc of a Y-wing? Getting out of a Y-wings arc has literally been a part of the game since Wave 1. Yes, it's a slightly scarier arc than it was back then, and yes if you park your expensive action-dependent ship in front of it, it's probably going to have a bad time, but seriously, the stresshog is one of the few ways to directly counter aces without getting into the PS-bid war. It lets you run a swarm with some ace insurance, and ultimately leads to more variety in list building since you can't rely on the super-est of all the aces to beat everything.

Doesn't that seem like a good thing?

Edited for grammar

Getting out of arc, when you have 4 or 5 green modified dice to hide behind wasn't as much as a problem. But those 2 unavoidable stresses are.

For sure, the 2 stress is not so good, but it's still not terribly difficult to avoid the arc with the plethora of arc-dodgers available to every faction. As you said, the dice doesn't really make a different if it has you in arc so that would suggest that getting out of arc would be the top priority. If it means you have to peel off for a round or two, then that's something that needs to be factored into your game plan. What I like about the stresshog is that it's really only effective as an enabler - it's damage output is quite low once it begins stressing itself and since your stuck with it's base dial, it relies upon the rest of the list to take down whatever it tags.

What this tells us is that you may need to do something like bait it into attacking because once it's down it's first double-stress, it's stuck either flying nowhere fast or trying to squeeze in as many 2-hards as it can. Both of which are the ideal situation for arc-dodgers.

To use an example, say you've got your classic Palp Aces pairing against a Stresshog, It might be beneficial to let Soontir get stressed, locking down the hog, and then just have him run for a few turns, clearing stress. Honestly, he's so good in the end-game that it's probably beneficial anyways to force him into strafing runs. You know that once you get there, he can dance around just about anyone so then it becomes a calculated tactic. Stress sucks but there's really only a few arc-dodgers worth more than 30 points so with a little planning, it just doesn't seem like aces are THAT screwed against a single ship.

I look at that matchup and it just seems like an interesting game that I'd like to watch. Can Soontir avoid it's arc? Can the stresshog stay in the fight long enough to be effective? How will the rest of the list respond?

It all looks like intriguing gameplay from my angle and nerfing that away because it's annoying if you're not planning for it hardly seems like a positive step.

I think what the Stresshog also teaches us, is that we've become (as a group) way to dependant on actions.

I'd like the game to move a little more towards rewarding planning.

Warpman is a S&V player, how would three Khir#@#$xzes fare? Talonbane, Glitterstim, Predator, 2 x BSA, Glitterstim, Wingman.

13 points left over to play around with.

I can tell you how my favourite Cobra build, with pigtails of doom

fares against it.

Act 1. you get into R1 of the Stresshog, PTL for the TL, Pigtail YV places it's two TLs, takes a focus, you clear the stress with Wingman

Act 2. you MURDER the thing.

Act 3. Cobra dies to TLT fire. It's not Poe, it just is not poe...

Act 3, you murder one more Y-wing

Act 4, Ace dies

Act 5 game ends\YV dies depending on time limits due to YV not being a maneuverable ship.

Or worse than that, you don't reach the R1, or you don't manage to drop the Stresshog. In this case the MoV is even worse.

The thing we must remember is the time when Wingman triggers

it's at the beginning of combat phase.

even making a green and having a wingman, you're a sorry actionless sitting duck after getting two.

And I just don't want to think about life expectancy of 2 evade 5 hit points...

Guess who has regen, stress control and TLTs readily available?

Yep.

maybe the Defenders will turn the tables, we haven't tested anything but Ruthless Grav Vessery of Doom.

Saying Deci doesn't care about stress is hilarious.

No boosts, no Isards, nothing. You're stuck with a shipm worth more than half of the list with most you squeeze out of it being 3 PWT shots with Predator and Chiraneau ability.

And it's a 0 evade ship, with easily and clearly seen consequences for it.

In case you wonder: the only "imperial" ships I own are Slaves and a phantom (****, what sadist put tactician in THIS expansion!?)

But again. There is no such thing as a Rebel biased or dominated meta. Empire has different options. They have much higher agility hard to hit aces that are relatively cheap in comparison. They have Palpy, they have different stress control but they have it! They have the best arc- dodgers bar none. They have a wider selection of playable aces than anyone else. They have access to Autothrusters on useful ships and cloaking mechanics...

So why are you saying Rebels have more or better options? It's just not true!

Scum is not yet at the same level, but they have the better TLT list with unhinged, they have the best one-use items in the game (bar crackshot). Brobots have no comparison in all game, and are actually still competitive. They also have good stress options and the better HWK and Firespray talents.

And again. Rebels do NOT win significantly more or less tournaments than the others as far as we can see. So your personal impression is possibly just a small insignificant sample where one faction dominates!

The hardest counter Scum has to TLTs that i can imagine is a decently built Guri.

Guri (30)

Push the Limit (3)

Sensor Jammer (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Autothrusters (2)

Virago (1)

Total: 42

Sure he's **** expensive, but he is nearly impervious to TLT fire.

He is maneuvrable emough to get into donuts too. And if you need an ace-Counter with him try somrthing like pumped up VI Boba or so!

Control is a vital aspect of the game and the game is stronger for it. All I would like to see is the gap in cost efficiency and effectiveness between a 26pt Stresshog and literally any other stress dealer in the game become a lot smaller. It would be nice to see some competitive and comparable options available for other factions.

Sigma Squadron Pilot (25)

Rebel Captive (3)

Sigma Squadron Pilot (25)

Tactician (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Tactician (2)

Mara Jade (3)

TIE Shuttle (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Tactician (2)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Total: 105

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

As you can see Empire has plenty of options below 30 points. Some also can double stress.

They also have a few tricks that Rebels don't have! Captive is very efficient against aces as they mostly shoot first. Mara Jade is an AOE stress.

So the possibilities are pretty endless, you just need to try them out.

The experience i have made however is that at 26 points most imperial players prefer other stuff! So these ships hardly get a chance!

I appreciate your list and have tried many times to create an Imp control list/ship, but they always fall short of what the Stresshog can do! It's not that aren't any other options, its that the Stresshog is so effective the alternatives fall short.

Rebel Captive requires your opponent to actively and consciously play into your hands (which is a weird "control" mechanic) and only procs one stress. Mara Jade is nice, but is also limited to dealing one stress with the added limitation they don't already have a stress.

Stresshog has,

No action dependency

No range 2 restriction (Range 2-3 is objectively better than Range 2)

No "hit" requirement

No munition expenditure

No stress stacking limit (Can stress targets already stressed)

Causes 2 stress per round to the same target by itself

Shoots 3 times per attack

Sits behind 8 HP (Can still be downed in an alpha strike, but then your opponent just blew Round 1 alpha strike against a Gold squadron Y-wing)

All for 26 points.

TL:DR No combination of Tactician, Secondary Weapons, or Imp crew on any ship comes close to being as cost effective or efficient as the Stresshog. (Opinion does not include unreleased shenanigans) Not game breaking, the sky is not falling and some cool stuff is coming out, but right now the stresshog is absolutely the best at what it does bar none.

But again. There is no such thing as a Rebel biased or dominated meta.

And again. Rebels do NOT win significantly more or less tournaments than the others as far as we can see

Just open the link and enjoy counting the lists.

Surely it's not disproportionate, sure [/sarcasm]

The hardest counter Scum has to TLTs that i can imagine is a decently built Guri.

Guri (30)

Push the Limit (3)

Sensor Jammer (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Autothrusters (2)

Virago (1)

Total: 42

Sure he's **** expensive, but he is nearly impervious to TLT fire.

He is maneuvrable emough to get into donuts too. And if you need an ace-Counter with him try somrthing like pumped up VI Boba or so!

Push the Limit (3) Good luck with that.

Sensor jammer is cool and all, but you get into it's arc just once and you can easily stick the glorious action bar, PTL and chances of winning up her cybernetic pelvis.

And she costs more than Soontir.

Played against almost the same thing with KKK and YYYY-rebels. you know, to prove that a dude that said exactly the same thing (but his Guri had Lone Wolf)

Guri got a stack of 4 stresses, the rest of the list was massacred by TLT fire.

After that we had a merry goose chace. Game ended with me having 2 more TLTs to spare and Guri hanging by 1 Hull point.

the KKK game was too much of a dice fest to speak about it's result. Ever seen Guri getting one-shot by Miranda?

I have.

4 dice primary at R1, focus-focus-crit-crit. flipped the focuses, guri throws 1 focus, flips it up, catches a 2 damage crit and "roll red die to die"

<looks at top 32>

Not seeing what you are claiming. Of course, you can easily manipulate the data to fit your viewpoint. The cut last year was 32, which I feel is a more fair view of the top tier than the top 16.

<looks at top 32>

Not seeing what you are claiming. Of course, you can easily manipulate the data to fit your viewpoint. The cut last year was 32, which I feel is a more fair view of the top tier than the top 16.

The closer you get to the top, the more rebels show up.

If you want more complete data, MJuggler did a huge job with all the statistics.

41% of world players are rebels, 25% are imps and 34% are mercs (Scum is the word for Rebel scum, so S&V=Mercs)

53% of all points were points invested in named pilots

46% of all points were invested in TLT platforms

12% were non-TLT generics (hello there, Palpmobiles and blockers!)

It's...disturbing...

Because meta keeps tumbling the same way.

But again. There is no such thing as a Rebel biased or dominated meta.

And again. Rebels do NOT win significantly more or less tournaments than the others as far as we can see

Just open the link and enjoy counting the lists.

Surely it's not disproportionate, sure [/sarcasm]

The hardest counter Scum has to TLTs that i can imagine is a decently built Guri.Guri (30)Push the Limit (3)Sensor Jammer (4)Glitterstim (2)Autothrusters (2)Virago (1)Total: 42

Sure he's **** expensive, but he is nearly impervious to TLT fire.

He is maneuvrable emough to get into donuts too. And if you need an ace-Counter with him try somrthing like pumped up VI Boba or so!

Push the Limit (3) Good luck with that.

Sensor jammer is cool and all, but you get into it's arc just once and you can easily stick the glorious action bar, PTL and chances of winning up her cybernetic pelvis.

And she costs more than Soontir.

Played against almost the same thing with KKK and YYYY-rebels. you know, to prove that a dude that said exactly the same thing (but his Guri had Lone Wolf)

Guri got a stack of 4 stresses, the rest of the list was massacred by TLT fire.

After that we had a merry goose chace. Game ended with me having 2 more TLTs to spare and Guri hanging by 1 Hull point.

the KKK game was too much of a dice fest to speak about it's result. Ever seen Guri getting one-shot by Miranda?

I have.

4 dice primary at R1, focus-focus-crit-crit. flipped the focuses, guri throws 1 focus, flips it up, catches a 2 damage crit and "roll red die to die"

Also there were hardly any stresshogs flown on worlds. Interesting, isn't it? The only other list like Heaver's didn't rank very well too.

And while you are at list juggler, look at larger tournaments other than worlds. You will see that there is no such thing as Rebels dominating the meta, and there is huge list variation too!

I also beat TLT Y-Wings on a few occasions. Twice with this exact Guri build minus Glitterstim. I further had an IG and a Z-95 in my list on one occasion. On the other i had not even Sensor Jammer but FCS iirc, with 2 TLTs of my own and a Z-95.

A friend of mine won a store championship with this exact list only recently. Including TLT matchups and Heaver's worlds list!

I beat Scum TLTs with Nathan Eide's Worlds list, and Rebel Stresshog with Palpmobile and Crackswarm. It can be done and has be done, and it was not even particularly frustrating. I got Vader double stressed once, and Corran too. And guess what, i still won. I ran away with Corran and eventually cleared stress. And Vader eventually went down, but not until i had done a lot of damage and Soontir cleaned up the mess!

I know, my anecdotal evidence proves exactly nothing. Exactly nothing... like yours!

Just a casual reminder that the Stresshog is the topic du jour here. Not TLT Y's in general.