*tales of epic victories and glorious days passed*

Maybe you're just Batman.

Or live in a perfect world where actionless stressed Vader isn't fishfood in under 2 turns of fire.

But yeah, we're derailing the thread

If you want more complete data, MJuggler did a huge job with all the statistics.

Don't need to, the juggler page does it for you.

If you look at the 13,255 samples, 46% are Rebel ships, 36% are Imperial and 17% are S&V. So yes Rebels does have a small lead. But they are also the good guys regardless of what some people may say, so it's quite natural that they're seen more.

*tales of epic victories and glorious days passed*

Maybe you're just Batman.

Or live in a perfect world where actionless stressed Vader isn't fishfood in under 2 turns of fire.

But yeah, we're derailing the thread

Maybe i am just Batman and Robin in one person and maybe you're just a whining crybaby that can't figure out a way to beat a Stresshog although it's really not that hard!

Btw, Vader died after 3 turns. Because Palpy said so! and because TLTs have donut holes!

I don't mind that most points are spent on named pilots, for me the game is fun in large part because it's Star Wars and that means flying with or against Luke Skywalker is way more fun than "Rookie Pilot".

If you want more complete data, MJuggler did a huge job with all the statistics.

Don't need to, the juggler page does it for you.If you look at the 13,255 samples, 46% are Rebel ships, 36% are Imperial and 17% are S&V. So yes Rebels does have a small lead. But they are also the good guys regardless of what some people may say, so it's quite natural that they're seen more.

The ideal situation would be if Rebels won 46% of tournaments then, imps 36% and Scum 17%.

Because then we would have a completely balanced meta. It's completely logical that a faction that is played more wins a larger amount of tournaments on average.

the top 20 swiss at worlds was 50% rebel, 35% imperial and 15% scum

yes i picked 20 so i could work it out in my head

To make it more visual

R R S I R I S R R I R R I I R I

the Top 16 elimination rounds,

sorted by "championship rank" in listjuggler.

Either you don't want to see the problem

or you deny it.

the top 20 swiss at worlds was 50% rebel, 35% imperial and 15% scum

yes i picked 20 so i could work it out in my head

On worlds alone there were, if i read it correctly from MJ's worlds thread. 41% Rebels total, 25% Imps and 34% Scum.

So what that would mean is that Rebels and Imperials did exceptionally well (they both gain 10% from start to top 20) and Scum did extremely poor (lost 20%)

This would, if i read it correctly, indicate that Imps and Rebels are bot balanced and fine when compared, and Scum is not as competitive as we would like!

This is of course just a small sample size. We can't say that Worlds represents the world meta perfectly either because there are many more american players (for sheer reason of proximity) than would be normally seen if the World cup was not in the US!

According to the link you posted the top 50 (what I would guess people would consider the best players at worlds) consisted of 20 Rebels, 13 Imperials, 14 Scum and 3 where there was no list data available. Of the 20 rebels to make Top 50 7 had a stress bot making it a part of just over 1/3 of rebel lists. Only one of which appeared in the top 10 according to the link you posted. Meaning, Stressbot was there but only in Paul Heaver's hands did it make it to the top. In contrast the Top 10 consisted of 3 Corran Horn and 2 Poe Dameron.

On the imperial side 7 of the 13 lists included Soontir Fell. So just over half of the imperial lists to make the top 50 included soontir. If stressbot is a huge problem then Soontir must also be a huge problem but I haven't seen calls to nerf Soontir. Which I think brings us back to the idea that you don't like it because you want to dictate to others how they should be allowed to play their ships. Not because it's actually a meta deforming issue.

TLT is a different discussion entirely... It shows up a TON in the Top 50 for both Scum and Rebels.

To make it more visual

R R S I R I S R R I R R I I R I

the Top 16 elimination rounds,

sorted by "championship rank" in listjuggler.

Either you don't want to see the problem

The closer you get to the top, the more rebels show up.

It's...disturbing...

or you deny it.

Quoting yourself is also very... disturbing!

Again, just compare it to the total lists played on list juggler and on worlds. And you will see that the top lists are proportional to lists played, except for scum which totally fails on worlds. Imps and rebel do equally well! See my above post and check it up if you want!

So either you don't want to see the truth...

Or you just fail to understand it!

I won't draw you a picture now, but let me explain it again so you maybe understand!

If there are let's say more american athletes participating than let's say...mexican athletes in a large swimming tournament, it is very likely that in the finals there will still be more american swimmers present than mexican swimmers...

(On another note: And it's even more likely if one of these american swimmers happens to be the double world champion! Dayum Heaver why are you so good at swimming?!?)

Apparently he's the Michael Phelps of X-wing

Phelp-Wing.

To make it more visual

R R S I R I S R R I R R I I R I

the Top 16 elimination rounds,

sorted by "championship rank" in listjuggler.

Either you don't want to see the problem

The closer you get to the top, the more rebels show up.

It's...disturbing...

or you deny it.

Quoting yourself is also very... disturbing!

Again, just compare it to the total lists played on list juggler and on worlds. And you will see that the top lists are proportional to lists played, except for scum which totally fails on worlds. Imps and rebel do equally well! See my above post and check it up if you want!

So either you don't want to see the truth...

Or you just fail to understand it!

I won't draw you a picture now, but let me explain it again so you maybe understand!

If there are let's say more american athletes participating than let's say...mexican athletes in a large swimming tournament, it is very likely that in the finals there will still be more american swimmers present than mexican swimmers...

(On another note: And it's even more likely if one of these american swimmers happens to be the double world champion! Dayum Heaver why are you so good at swimming?!?)

And then you just fail again to see the point

People take the best lists to tournaments,and the best players with bests lists get to Worlds.

See the point now?

powerplayers choose rebels, and it's not a coincidence. You can be a great fan of blaster-HWKs, but when you make a list for tournaments, you don't handicap your own list by taking sub-par factions and sup-par choices.

"even distribution" is a communist myth. X wing is not an exception to that.

and we derailed the thread

again.

To make it more visual

R R S I R I S R R I R R I I R I

the Top 16 elimination rounds,

sorted by "championship rank" in listjuggler.

Either you don't want to see the problem

The closer you get to the top, the more rebels show up.

It's...disturbing...

or you deny it.

Quoting yourself is also very... disturbing!

Again, just compare it to the total lists played on list juggler and on worlds. And you will see that the top lists are proportional to lists played, except for scum which totally fails on worlds. Imps and rebel do equally well! See my above post and check it up if you want!

So either you don't want to see the truth...

Or you just fail to understand it!

I won't draw you a picture now, but let me explain it again so you maybe understand!

If there are let's say more american athletes participating than let's say...mexican athletes in a large swimming tournament, it is very likely that in the finals there will still be more american swimmers present than mexican swimmers...

(On another note: And it's even more likely if one of these american swimmers happens to be the double world champion! Dayum Heaver why are you so good at swimming?!?)

And then you just fail again to see the point

People take the best lists to tournaments,and the best players with bests lists get to Worlds.

See the point now?

powerplayers choose rebels, and it's not a coincidence. You can be a great fan of blaster-HWKs, but when you make a list for tournaments, you don't handicap your own list by taking sub-par factions and sup-par choices.

"even distribution" is a communist myth. X wing is not an exception to that.

and we derailed the thread

again.

One thing to note is that people didn't have to take the same list, not even the same faction to worlds as they played in regionals, like you suggest. In fact the meta shifted a bit in between and i imagine relatively few would have done this.

Powergamers are nerds like everyone playing these games and they take the faction they like most IF it is decently competitive. And since X-Wing has no major balancing issues at the moment (could always be a bit better, especially for scum atm. but hey...), you could basically choose between all 3 factions competitive lists. Which were literally all capable of winning worlds. I had expected 4YTLTs or Palpmobile to take it. But Rebel Aces, Oldschool Dash, Brobots or Phantom lists and even many more had a really decent shot at winning it too!

And as there are simply more Rebel players out there, pretty much since the beginning of X-Wing, these players will play Rebels if they see that they are competitive. Which they undeniably are! But not any more than Empire, Which is also a fact if you look at worlds. The only faction that drops off a bit in top rankings percentagewise is scum. The other two consolidate their starting quota.

This leads to something over 40% Rebel participation on Worlds. There are 46% of lists on juggler that are Rebel. This is not a coincidence. People fly them because they were their childhood heroes, and... well yes... the good guys.

If you bring out a WW2 game a lot of people will tend not to play the Germans even if for a game it would be totally okay. That's the same phenomenon!

They like to be the good guys. Even in my Playgroup there are a lot of casual, semi-competitive and competitive players that just adore their X-Wings, B-Wings and Falcons because of simple fluff reasons. These guys will tend to Rebels for tournaments, not because they think they are better but because they are more trained with them, and for the sheer looks. And as long as they stand a chance with these ships, why not?

Also if this is derailing the thread, let's come back to the Stresshog, which made, nothing more but a pretty average showing at worlds as multiple people have already shown you. I am also not the one insisting that worlds is the most important proof for my arguments. That's you my dear! You draw pictures with colored letters even if they are nothing but pseudo-proof!

But then, if we really needed to consider only worlds as the ultima ratio of the meta, (which i don't believe, it's rather a momentary shot in a large series of tournaments) when you would need to come to the idea that Stresshog is not even remotely as big of a problem as you want to make it exactly because these worlds results would indicate it, you just refuse to draw the conclusion.

I will repeat the facts:

• Not many people played stresshogs at worlds, and nearly all but Paul Heaver failed to get very far with them.
• There were far more normal TLTs, even more Soontirs and Palpatines, and a lots of other stuff that did better than your average Stresshog player (Obviously Paul happens to be far from average)

-> Only possible conclusion: there is nothing wrong with the Stresshog!

It is **** sure a competitive option, but there are counterplays and counter lists, and just generally lists and plays that don't care too much about this ship. You don't want to see it, you just refute anything that counters it blindly.

We posted you lists and builds, but they are not good enough for you.

We posted you tactics, but you refuse to use them.

We gave you tips on what to do about your apparent stresshog meta, but you went on ranting.

So then go on sobbing in a corner, i am having fun like never before playing X-Wing!

If you bring out a WW2 game a lot of people will tend not to play the Germans even if for a game it would be totally okay. That's the same phenomenon!

They like to be the good guys. Even in my Playgroup there are a lot of casual, semi-competitive and competitive players that just adore their X-Wings, B-Wings and Falcons because of simple fluff reasons.

At risk on even further derailing the topic, it would be nice if there was a way to get empirical data for this just for curiosities sake. It might depend on your own local meta, but I have the exact opposite experience in both X-wing and other games. This is completely anecdotal, but Imperials are by far the most favorite (fluff) faction for me and my local group.

The Rebels may be the "good guys", but the Imps will always be the underdogs (from a story telling/fluff POV).

Back on topic, does anyone think the YV-666 would have been slightly OP with triple tacticians for 35pts? Or a shuttle (Lambda or TIE) with two tacticians? It seems slightly odd that the devs tried to limit the ability for a single ship to stack more than one stress on its target in a single round for seemingly every ship, but the stresshog. Which would still be arguably more efficient at dealing stress than anything even if tactician wasn't nerfed. (Although Bren with Lightning Reflexes and double tacticians would have been close...sigh)

The Rebels may be the "good guys", but the Imps will always be the underdogs cool guys (from a story telling/fluff POV).

fixed that for you.

If the primary squads people use are Rock I would not be surprised to see surprised to see Paper lists taking all of the top spots in a tournament; after all if Paper always beats Rock it would get more wins there and then be 50/50 against any other Paper list. You may then ask "where are Scissors?" because they would defeat Paper; maybe they do but there if there aren't enough Paper squads they can defeat while there are many Rock squads that defeat them this is going to cut their wins down and leave them out of the top spots With few Scissors to easily win against a Rock squad has a hard time gaining momentum especially when they buried by Paper squads.

And then when you look back at that tournament you may think Paper is so dominant because it appears to take most of the top spots although the truth may be that Rock showed up in far greater numbers. Perhaps the next tournament will feature more Paper squadrons which then get cut up by Scissors squadrons thus changing the apparent "top dog" although nothing has really changes with the pieces involved but rather just how they were used.

X-Wing isn't nearly as simple as Rock-Paper-Scissors but if you are looking at a metagame it can certainly be true. Even if the game stagnates it is possible to have a different top dog when there is a diverse metagame that allows it to by dynamic to its environment.

Flew against my first Stress Hog this weekend (the World's List) , and I had very little trouble with the Y wing (was flying Soontir and Vader ). The thing is unbelievably easy to dodge and boy does it dissolve under any type of focused fire.

Powerful? Yes
Overpowered? meh

"But....but....stresshog is OP!!!!! Rebels shouldn't be able to counter Fel..... because TLTs!!!!!!"

Derp

If the primary squads people use are Rock I would not be surprised to see surprised to see Paper lists taking all of the top spots in a tournament; after all if Paper always beats Rock it would get more wins there and then be 50/50 against any other Paper list. You may then ask "where are Scissors?" because they would defeat Paper; maybe they do but there if there aren't enough Paper squads they can defeat while there are many Rock squads that defeat them this is going to cut their wins down and leave them out of the top spots With few Scissors to easily win against a Rock squad has a hard time gaining momentum especially when they buried by Paper squads.

And then when you look back at that tournament you may think Paper is so dominant because it appears to take most of the top spots although the truth may be that Rock showed up in far greater numbers. Perhaps the next tournament will feature more Paper squadrons which then get cut up by Scissors squadrons thus changing the apparent "top dog" although nothing has really changes with the pieces involved but rather just how they were used.

X-Wing isn't nearly as simple as Rock-Paper-Scissors but if you are looking at a metagame it can certainly be true. Even if the game stagnates it is possible to have a different top dog when there is a diverse metagame that allows it to by dynamic to its environment.

My only small gripe isn't that the stresshog is such a good counter to ace-builds, its that the stresshog is miles ahead of other stress dealers. (To be clear, I would like other stress dealers to be brought up to the same level of the stresshog, not a nerf)

To use your analogy, currently for Imps there are 5 different competitive types of Rock, (Fel, Vader, Whisper, Jax, Omega Leader) and soon to be more (Rexlar, Vessery, Inquisitor) granted they vary in cost and slightly vary in role, but they all share the same trait of being a high PS and ideal for a 1v1 endgame scenario. While there are less types of Rock for the Rebels, they have still a few options (Poe, Horn mostly). Meanwhile, there is only one type of Paper and that's limited to a single faction.

The stresshog is more efficient and effective at what it does (selecting the most action dependent ship on the board and completely shutting it down) than any other combination of Pilot, Tactician, Flechette Secondaries or crew currently available by a parsec. I absolutely believe that FFG will continue to develop variety in competitive control options like they have done with aces, but I don't think its unreasonable to wish for College Ruled Paper AND Graph Paper.

Back on topic, does anyone think the YV-666 would have been slightly OP with triple tacticians for 35pts? Or a shuttle (Lambda or TIE) with two tacticians? It seems slightly odd that the devs tried to limit the ability for a single ship to stack more than one stress on its target in a single round for seemingly every ship, but the stresshog. Which would still be arguably more efficient at dealing stress than anything even if tactician wasn't nerfed. (Although Bren with Lightning Reflexes and double tacticians would have been close...sigh)

Well, K-wing and HWK can use TLTactician to spit out two stresses in their arc at range 2

That's bigger than any stress-induction outside of that.

but it's plainly incomparable to stresshog's ability, because instead of 2 at range 2

stresshog says "2 at range 2-3 and 1 at range 1"

YV is just the first ship with rather wide arc that could have been cool.

S&V shouldn't get cool toys *looks in awful distaste at Daredevil FAQ*

"But....but....stresshog is OP!!!!! Rebels shouldn't be able to counter Fel..... because TLTs!!!!!!"

Derp

I don't care about fel, actually.

But imagine your fat 50 point ace-large ship that already suffers greatly due to TLT era

getting himself smeared with mud even further.

More so, it limits the last resort big non-PWT ship aces had-PTL for the action economy they lacked so hard.

And fel? Screw fel. And screw vader together with him.

Uh, the Daredevil FAQ is ancient, and was made so that the card worked as intended. I suppose they could revert to the original wording since the changes in the RRG would make it functional that way, but that would be an odd precedent.

As for the Tactician change... A 180 range 2 arc is huge. It's be much harder than the stresshog to dodge. Coupled with the stop maneuver and you don't have a lot of counterplay- You'd have to rocket from R3 to R1, and it's be child's play to exploit that with the rest of your fleet. Would it have been overpowered? I dunno. But I'd certainly fear it far more than a Stressing. Also, it wasn't unique so you could run 2-3 of them, which would be a lot more obnoxious than the previous dedicated control build (Panic Attack).

Well, K-wing and HWK can use TLTactician to spit out two stresses in their arc at range 2

That's bigger than any stress-induction outside of that.

but it's plainly incomparable to stresshog's ability, because instead of 2 at range 2

stresshog says "2 at range 2-3 and 1 at range 1"

YV is just the first ship with rather wide arc that could have been cool.

I was thinking about the K-wing when I was evaluating other stress builds and while its not bad by any means, comparing them 1:1, I agree that the Stresshog is clearly a much better bargain.

As for the Tactician change... A 180 range 2 arc is huge. It's be much harder than the stresshog to dodge. Coupled with the stop maneuver and you don't have a lot of counterplay- You'd have to rocket from R3 to R1, and it's be child's play to exploit that with the rest of your fleet. Would it have been overpowered? I dunno. But I'd certainly fear it far more than a Stressing. Also, it wasn't unique so you could run 2-3 of them, which would be a lot more obnoxious than the previous dedicated control build (Panic Attack).

I agree that it would be challenging to play against. If a YV-666 with triple or double tacticians ended up being more effective than the stressbot, would that be a problem? Better question, should the stressbot remain the pinnacle of stress dealers because anything better than that would be universally agreed to be excessive?

You do make a good point about being able run multiple of them, that might easily break things.