I feel for anyone that has to play in a community full of power gamers. Hearing about actually makes me feel grateful that, out of about 50 players, maybe 5-6 play those kind of lists. And it's not even the best players!

Warpman, obviously i know nothing about your community or your options for finding others. But if you can, i think you really should

Our local community, including myself, is composed of former (GW did a great job murdering the systems) 40k and FB players, with odd FoW players

The powergame level is not extreme, but the skill players have here and their squad-building capabilities are good to say the least. Years of tabletop wargames seem to bestow good distance reading skill and innate understanding of roster composition.

It's not the powergaming that is the problem, but the amplitude of the changes and it's vector.

Adding something that wipes the floor with current meta isn't as good as it seems. We've seen this employed for years by GW, and now FFG did basically the same, erasing one of the greatest virtues of the game - variety of lists. It's almost as bad as the Phantom menace times when there were PS9+ PWTs and Whispers.

Worse than just that, it has offset the balance further. to you_know_which side.

part of TEH MASTER PLAN? Maybe. Maybe they will introduce something in wave 9 that will turn the world around, but it's not something related to the topic.

Well, slightly it is. The topic is whether the Stresshog should be nerfed and it is well possible that future waves bring the counters to any (perceived or real) undue skewing of the meta in the favour of TLT's in general and Stresshogs in particular.

The Tractor Beam, for instance, might not do any damage, but it could screw up the arcs on the Y-Wing and those things are notoriously hard to turn about. Wired is a bit of a counter, not so much to the stress but to the following damage, and ensuring you have at least something to mitigate rolls.

Of course, the stresshog itself falls in the same trap as most 2 ship lists: a swarm just provides too many targets for it to be truly effective.

I think I will try throwing Biggs back into the mix someday, with R2-D6, Integrated Astromech and Wired.

If you're getting into joust with a Stresshog; you're doing it wrong.

Fly Better (but still casual).

Well, slightly it is. The topic is whether the Stresshog should be nerfed and it is well possible that future waves bring the counters to any (perceived or real) undue skewing of the meta in the favour of TLT's in general and Stresshogs in particular.

The Tractor Beam, for instance, might not do any damage, but it could screw up the arcs on the Y-Wing and those things are notoriously hard to turn about. Wired is a bit of a counter, not so much to the stress but to the following damage, and ensuring you have at least something to mitigate rolls.

Of course, the stresshog itself falls in the same trap as most 2 ship lists: a swarm just provides too many targets for it to be truly effective.

I think I will try throwing Biggs back into the mix someday, with R2-D6, Integrated Astromech and Wired.

was tinkering with a biggs-hog-duo myself the other day

and to "the rest that talks in circles" - please: keep discussing the stresshog here - and separate "tlts in general" to another thread. we already had several (many..) of these. no reason the repeat the stuff here, again³.

personally, the hog is in the "suspiciously good" corner to me; it's unique, so a single hog isn't gonna ruin the game. there is no sky falling. still, it's such a no-brainer for its costs. if you have the points -and no bias against flying what everybody flies-, the hog is the first thing you grab. it's that good. and I dare to say that I'd still buy it without a second thought if it were 1-3 points more expensive.

again: discussing the hog here is fine (that's what this thread is for); just let us do it in a mature manner; everybody is entitled to that, so keep things civil, people.

"personally, the hog is in the "suspiciously good" corner to me; it's unique, so a single hog isn't gonna ruin the game. there is no sky falling. still, it's such a no-brainer for its costs. if you have the points -and no bias against flying what everybody flies-, the hog is the first thing you grab. it's that good. and I dare to say that I'd still buy it without a second thought if it were 1-3 points more expensive."

Couldn't agree more.

If you're getting into joust with a Stresshog; you're doing it wrong.

Fly Better (but still casual).

I'm really curious if you think that it's really that easy and people are that incompetent - or if you're just trolling; I'll try to keep my tone civil and will elaborate.

you simply can't avoid the hog; at r3 the arc is quite big and once you're in there, you're at least in for another round of double-stress.

you can see PLENTY of videos online where world-class-players who are -way- better than me (and perhaps better than you?) fail to avoid the hog.

not one, plenty.

maybe instead of having a rather insulting tone ("you're doing it wrong, fly better"), you should just record some videos against decent players.. and you can do a service to the rest here and just show how easy to outfly it really is

also, changing the tone in the post above would really help, if it wasn't meant as insulting as it comes across..

I remembered a picture on themetalbikini.com, an article about Han Shoots First.

This is, basically, the size of a Range 3 arc.

the cat has to be nerfed!

It's not a PWT though

It has an arc

Arcs CAN be dodged; han cannot

Helps to flank wide while something that doesn't get hammered by stress runs as the up the middle. Once you're past the Y, it's largely ignorable.

If at all possible, slay Poe first

Now as a disclaimer, I don't fly soonts/Vader etc as we have enough of those, and I'm not even CLOSE to as punished by r3-a2 for flying

Xizor

Kwings (and my own stress Y)

Tie fighter miniswarm (sucks to lose zeta's ability, but he's ultimately expendable like any good tie)

If you're getting into joust with a Stresshog; you're doing it wrong.

Fly Better (but still casual).

I'm really curious if you think that it's really that easy and people are that incompetent - or if you're just trolling; I'll try to keep my tone civil and will elaborate.

you simply can't avoid the hog; at r3 the arc is quite big and once you're in there, you're at least in for another round of double-stress.

you can see PLENTY of videos online where world-class-players who are -way- better than me (and perhaps better than you?) fail to avoid the hog.

not one, plenty.

maybe instead of having a rather insulting tone ("you're doing it wrong, fly better"), you should just record some videos against decent players.. and you can do a service to the rest here and just show how easy to outfly it really is

also, changing the tone in the post above would really help, if it wasn't meant as insulting as it comes across..

I'm not trolling, nor am I saying that you wont be able to avoid him entirely. But you can out fly him. Use the debris to your advantage for cover, use the rest of your squad for cover, and - at times - accept the stress.

As I posted earlier, so many players think they need to clear stress straight away. You don't. Say Soontir cops stress at R2 due to the Stresshog. Chances are, the Stresshog is going to assume you'll pull a green to clear that stress so you still get your actions to engage. So he'll manouevre to set himself up for the next shot. Don't oblige him. Pull a straight 5, or a white 3 (of whatever the best move is) and disengage; get yourself out of arc and the engagement. Since he's a Y-Wing, it'll take him at least a turn or two to come around and re-engage. At the same time, the rest of your squad should be pummeling him into oblivion, given you should have some idea where he'll be.

In the meantime, Soontir can pull green straights (or whatever greens), to clear his stress and stay out of arc.

Not that i pkay against the best players all the time, but I've found that, especially against Fel, you should line the Y up for shots as if he's going green, and your other ships as if he's bugging out

Not that i pkay against the best players all the time, but I've found that, especially against Fel, you should line the Y up for shots as if he's going green, and your other ships as if he's bugging out

Many good players will likely do that; but many will not. Many players get fixated on a single target and will do their best to bring it down.

I'm not saying it will always work out, but there are many ways to counter the Stresshog; it certainly does not need the 'nerf' the OP seems to be calling for.

I guess I just come back to the overall philosophy that seems to pervade the meta at my local FLGS: Live with the things you can't control, and improve the things you can, i.e. fly better.

It's much easier to counter than 4 tlt in my opinion. Its easier to do with tactics as opposed to lists.

I definitely agree with the last statement. I'm lucky enough to play against some of the best players in my state, maybe even the country. I dont win but the learning curve is steep! The easiest way to learn how to beat something is to play it against a pro and watch them destroy it

Our local community, including myself, is composed of former (GW did a great job murdering the systems) 40k and FB players, with odd FoW players

The powergame level is not extreme, but the skill players have here and their squad-building capabilities are good to say the least. Years of tabletop wargames seem to bestow good distance reading skill and innate understanding of roster composition.

It's not the powergaming that is the problem, but the amplitude of the changes and it's vector.

Adding something that wipes the floor with current meta isn't as good as it seems. We've seen this employed for years by GW, and now FFG did basically the same, erasing one of the greatest virtues of the game - variety of lists. It's almost as bad as the Phantom menace times when there were PS9+ PWTs and Whispers.

Worse than just that, it has offset the balance further. to you_know_which side.

part of TEH MASTER PLAN? Maybe. Maybe they will introduce something in wave 9 that will turn the world around, but it's not something related to the topic.

I have honestly no clue what goes on in your area, but if you look at list Juggler or MJ's 2016 store championship thread, or at last years worlds and regionals, there is such an enormous variation in winning and top 8 lists that it's difficult to even call fhis a fixed meta.

Just to recall this to you. We used to have a Meta with Phantom/Miniswarm, Phantom/VT-49, Super Dash, Fat Han... That's pretty much it if you look a year ago or so.

If you see no change to what we have now, i really don't know what to tell you!

Of course lists are evolving, but power creep is something very different. I have also played a lot of 40k and X-Wing is not even close to that.

We have new lists with new ships doing well. And we have older lists that get slightly updated and continue to do well, like Kallus Phantoms, Crackshot swarms, or the Stresshog.

Because we have had the Stresshog for a VERY long time now! We had Y-Wing with BTL title, stressbot and Ion cannon for as long as Scum existed.

The only change to it is the TLT that makes Range 3 accessible to the Hog.

But really Warpman look at the lists that do well everywhere in the world. Yes there are TLTs, and there are also Stresshogs present. But why the hell should they not be there? It is a good build after all. But is it dominating the Meta? No. Is it hard to counter? Not at all!

It is good against expensive, action reliant aces. Which make a good portion of the meta. But even they can outfly it, and after it autostresses on any target, this gets even easier.

If you fly a large number of ships against it, it's pretty useless too. Yeah double stress a 12 point ship and make your 26 point ship unflyable. Congrats!

Why can you accept Corran Horn, Soontir Fel and Palpatine as part of the meta, but not the Stresshog? This just goes beyond me!

I realized I run into the stress hog a lot, so I'll provide more visual aids

basically boils down the same: "joust" ignore it

joust the list; screw the stress hog

joust

ignore it

joust

ignore it

ignore it

murder at leisure

haven't lost a game to it in months now that I realize it, though I did have two close calls because I apparently suck with Deathrain

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/194145-fickles-most-shameful-game/

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/195785-fickles-second-most-shameful-game/

the second game is what you're looking for if you're running an ace. Deathy got the perfect flank off around the range 3 r3-a2, but couldn't stick the net to Poe before it had come around again

Palp aces give me far more trouble

There will be more ships that eat stress like Keyan and Tychu. An obvious road to balance the stress-meta

Tie fighters aren't the best example of how to deal with stresshogs. They kind of do it naturally

Tie fighters aren't the best example of how to deal with stresshogs. They kind of do it naturally

sounds like they're the best example, then

Lol. True

I meant that saying "joust and ignore" is a good tactic is deceptive considering you're showing the only type of list that can really do that.

It's not tactics that is winning those games, its running a swarm

Lol. True

I meant that saying "joust and ignore" is a good tactic is deceptive considering you're showing the only type of list that can really do that.

It's not tactics that is winning those games, its running a swarm

mini-swarm*

and it is tactics. You brush past the Y-wing and then you can ignore it so long as you know how to react to 2-turns (unless of course it feeds itself to you without any support, in which case free feel to nab the free points). Late game, it's basically as effective as the lambda (which is to say, utter ass)

you do the same exact thing running aces, except you have to dodge the arc on the way in (which is only really possible for your double action boost + roll aces, see fickle's second most shameful game as to how)

of course, if someone keeps running into that steel wall, then all aces probably aren't for them. They're difficult, often stressful (no pun intended) builds to fly well. Instead, they could fly a single ace (ala Soontir) and mini-swarm (ala HOwlie + triple black, all with crackshot)

Wait so does the TLT 'declare' its target once or twice?

With a TLT, as with Cluster Missiles, you perform the same attack twice, declaring only once (if you'd declare twice, you'd've been able to choose different targets).

R3-A2 works only upon declaring a target.

right that's why i asked. otherwise that would be three stress per shot. Eeeesh.

it certainly does not need the 'nerf' the OP seems to be calling for.

Keep in mind OP actually said it was not their opinion, it was the opinion of someone not on the forum.

But the question still remains; does the Stresshog need reigned in?

I think that the answer is no. You pay a premium for a turret that you're going to handicap, and the Y-Wing itself is not a strain to deal with.

Does the Stresshog add another layer to the already impressive roster of Rebel tricks? Yes. Is it hard to deal with? Yes. Insurmountable? Hardly. I find myself wishing I could at least do a red move or two during the course of the game. It seems like the Y has maybe 3 rounds to wreak havoc and then she's just not an issue. If the end-game is a whatever you got vs a Stresshog Y-Wing, I hope to put my money on you and not the Y-Wing.

Does this mean that Rebels rule the roost? Well my local meta says no, seems like people want to fly Imps. In fact, Imperials are so popular right now that one stingey shop in town is charging three dollars more for Imp ships! I'd say that's a pretty telling fact right there. What about other people, what rules the meta around you and do you see a lot of Stresshogs?

I went to a 4 round event today with about a dozen or so players. At least half of them had Poe with VI, and most of the Imperial lists had Soontir in them. There was one Aggressor + Talonbane player, me with my 6 Crackshots, and a bunch of Acewing lists.

I know every single one of you guys complaining about the Stresshog is an Acewing player. It's this Acewing bull that needs reigning in, not one of the counters to it.

Maybe when your 40 point ship dies because it ended up with 3 stress on it you'll know what it feels like to have your opponent's R2-D2 Poe gain back 10 ******* shields in the end game against your 2 - 3 remaining TIE Fighters no matter how well you block or predict. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH