Loading up a bomber to the max is a bad idea, as it will never be able to expend all that expensive ordnance, why did we need a more expensive bomber that can carry even more expensive ordnance that it will never get to fire? At least the Missile boat would have given us SLAM and a new take on ordnance. I don't hate the Punisher like many here do, but I'd trade it away in a second for an interesting and well designed Missile Boat.

better question is why would you load it to the max?

the slots are and have always been to encourage a variety of builds; not to max out on upgrades

hence why you only go four max (2 + extras) on either named punisher

Sure, but you can do the same thing with missiles on the bomber. Granted, only the Punisher can take four bombs, but I don't really see it living long enough to make use of them. I'm just not seeing much value in the Punisher as a 5 point upgrade to the Bomber. The Punisher really needs a Title to make it shine and be a bit distinctive from its older brother.

you can't "do the same thing with missiles on the bomber"

bombers cannot approximate Redline nor Deathrain in any way, shape or form

hence why only the named punishers are worth it

Sure the named pilots have good abilities, but the same can be said of the Bomber pilots. Generic to generic, I'm just not seeing a good ROI for my 5 point investment. In fact, I'd bet that Deathrain and Redline would see more play as bomber pilots. Only Redline would miss being in the Punisher, but would he miss it by 7 points?

it really can't

Jonus is well priced but he's stupidly stiff for already stiff upgrades (ordnance) and doesn't affect himself

rhymer is just plain overpriced as hell and his ability is uninspiring at best

only Thomas Bren, so far, holds a handle to the punisher pilots and he's still utterly different, unable to make torpedoes or cluster missiles effective but rocking homing missiles + crackshot like you wouldn't believe

and sure, Deathrain would rock out the cheaper bomber, but he never will. The same way Wedge would be far superior in an E or a T-70 but is stuck in an X, pilot abilities are welded to their ship except for the rare cases in which they are duplicated (Hera and Marek so far). Comparing them cross ships is irrelevant, as the bomber will never have D-rain's or RL's ability

would be awesome if they did, but they won't

It's way too late for this, but I always thought having three tiers of upgrade slots would have made things like this much easier to balance and differentiate from other ships.

Regular, black, upgrades, work just like we have now. Green upgrade slots, that are one point cheaper to equip. Red upgrade slots, that cost one point more to equip.

Give the Punisher green upgrades for all of its Ordnance slots and it would make it a better buy and less painful to equip.

Edit: as for the title, a simple zero cost title that granted an EM effect that also stacked with EM would probably do it.

They're good alternatives to Tempests with AC. With TIE MK II and boost their maneuverability is actually good and with AC and only one agility die you don't need a defensive focus/offensive TL so you're free to change your angle with boost willy nilly.

You could go 2x Cutlass Squadron, 2x TIE MK II, 2x Accuracy Corrector

2x Tempest Squadron, 2x Procket, 2x TIE MK II, 2x AC.

If you want generic ordnance carriers, go with the Tie Bomber. If you want named ordnance carriers that do more, go with Punisher. The generic Punishers are not worth it. The named Tie Bombers are not worth it (except the new one).

Loading up a bomber to the max is a bad idea, as it will never be able to expend all that expensive ordnance, why did we need a more expensive bomber that can carry even more expensive ordnance that it will never get to fire? At least the Missile boat would have given us SLAM and a new take on ordnance. I don't hate the Punisher like many here do, but I'd trade it away in a second for an interesting and well designed Missile Boat.

better question is why would you load it to the max?

the slots are and have always been to encourage a variety of builds; not to max out on upgrades

hence why you only go four max (2 + extras) on either named punisher

Sure, but you can do the same thing with missiles on the bomber. Granted, only the Punisher can take four bombs, but I don't really see it living long enough to make use of them. I'm just not seeing much value in the Punisher as a 5 point upgrade to the Bomber. The Punisher really needs a Title to make it shine and be a bit distinctive from its older brother.

you can't "do the same thing with missiles on the bomber"

bombers cannot approximate Redline nor Deathrain in any way, shape or form

hence why only the named punishers are worth it

Sure the named pilots have good abilities, but the same can be said of the Bomber pilots. Generic to generic, I'm just not seeing a good ROI for my 5 point investment. In fact, I'd bet that Deathrain and Redline would see more play as bomber pilots. Only Redline would miss being in the Punisher, but would he miss it by 7 points?

it really can't

Jonus is well priced but he's stupidly stiff for already stiff upgrades (ordnance) and doesn't affect himself

rhymer is just plain overpriced as hell and his ability is uninspiring at best

only Thomas Bren, so far, holds a handle to the punisher pilots and he's still utterly different, unable to make torpedoes or cluster missiles effective but rocking homing missiles + crackshot like you wouldn't believe

and sure, Deathrain would rock out the cheaper bomber, but he never will. The same way Wedge would be far superior in an E or a T-70 but is stuck in an X, pilot abilities are welded to their ship except for the rare cases in which they are duplicated (Hera and Marek so far). Comparing them cross ships is irrelevant, as the bomber will never have D-rain's or RL's ability

would be awesome if they did, but they won't

yep, too many pilots beg for more suitable ships

but ****, when a pilot is super-fit for his ship, it's a monster

imagine FCS-less Horn

Soontir on defender

Han on a small ship xD

there is no quality that the generic has over the bomber

only Deathrain and redline provide substantial benefit using their respective weapons. Just having a system slot isn't worth the 5 point tax

Hey Fick...would you say that the 3 shields makes up a little for that 5 point cost..???

there is no quality that the generic has over the bomber

only Deathrain and redline provide substantial benefit using their respective weapons. Just having a system slot isn't worth the 5 point tax

Hey Fick...would you say that the 3 shields makes up a little for that 5 point cost..???

ner

costs almost as much as a B-wing for a whole die of damage less (and -1 agi from the normal bomber)

it's basically on the level of the pre-fix Tie Advance

there is no quality that the generic has over the bomber

only Deathrain and redline provide substantial benefit using their respective weapons. Just having a system slot isn't worth the 5 point tax

Hey Fick...would you say that the 3 shields makes up a little for that 5 point cost..???

Redline is a blast to fly if nothing else.

What about teaming them up? Is it possible to create a list that incorporates a Punisher and Bomber in a way that they complement each other, a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts?

(Speaking as an utter rookie whose gateway drug into X-Wing was a gifted Punisher, and is thus very motivated to make that ship work)

there is no quality that the generic has over the bomber

only Deathrain and redline provide substantial benefit using their respective weapons. Just having a system slot isn't worth the 5 point tax

I respectfully disagree. Fire Control System on a ship carrying ordnance that requires you to spend the Target Lock to fire it is so very very nice. This way you can do other things (Focus, pull a K-Turn, etc...) while maintaining the ability to fire said ordnance. On Redline FCS is just bonkers. You can keep a target in arc and just pound it with Cluster Missiles and/or Plasma Torps.

BTW: I almost always load Redline up with four ordnance shots (either 4 Cluster Missiles or 2 Cluster Missiles and 2 Plasma Torps) and she usually (~75% of the time) fires off at least 3 of them before she either dies or I win.

What about teaming them up? Is it possible to create a list that incorporates a Punisher and Bomber in a way that they complement each other, a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts?

(Speaking as an utter rookie whose gateway drug into X-Wing was a gifted Punisher, and is thus very motivated to make that ship work)

Try this out:

Redline with Fire Control System, Extra Munitions, Cluster Missiles, and Cluster Missiles for 39 points of fun.

This how you play it: Redline takes a Target Lock which turns into a double Target Lock, Spend one Target Lock to fire Cluster Missiles, discard munitions token, use Target Lock to re-roll any focus or blank rolls, FCS allows you to re-Target Lock the target which turns into a double Target Lock, fire second volley of Cluster Missiles, use Target Lock to re-roll any focus or blank rolls, FCS allows you to re-Target Lock the target which turns into a double Target Lock. So, you get two fully re-rollable 3 Attack shots per Cluster Missile. Rinse and repeat. It just devastates low Agility ships.

I speak from experience rather than math (I took Deathrain to store champs with Extra Munitions, Prox mines, Conner net, and Enhanced Scopes), but I actually really like the punisher; even if only because of its unique playstyle in an imperial list.

At store champs,I managed to effectively (meaning they hit something) drop all four bombs in every game but one, where I only dropped 3 of them. Deathrain was the mvp, with decent damage output from the prox mines, blocking capability from the barrel rolls, and setting up high agility targets for kills with prox mines.

The trick is to get deathrain at roughly range three of your target, take a couple hits for the team, and fly in to drop a bomb the next round.

In the current meta, which at least in my area is dominated by 2-3 ship builds and TLT's, the Punisher lasts a surprisingly long time with high hp and low agility. It's a nice balance alongside my Soontir and Carnor.

What about teaming them up? Is it possible to create a list that incorporates a Punisher and Bomber in a way that they complement each other, a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts?

(Speaking as an utter rookie whose gateway drug into X-Wing was a gifted Punisher, and is thus very motivated to make that ship work)

Try this out:

Redline with Fire Control System, Extra Munitions, Cluster Missiles, and Cluster Missiles for 39 points of fun.

This how you play it: Redline takes a Target Lock which turns into a double Target Lock, Spend one Target Lock to fire Cluster Missiles, discard munitions token, use Target Lock to re-roll any focus or blank rolls, FCS allows you to re-Target Lock the target which turns into a double Target Lock, fire second volley of Cluster Missiles, use Target Lock to re-roll any focus or blank rolls, FCS allows you to re-Target Lock the target which turns into a double Target Lock. So, you get two fully re-rollable 3 Attack shots per Cluster Missile. Rinse and repeat. It just devastates low Agility ships.

I've been having a lot of fun, and having great success, with a pretty similar build. Only difference is I take one cluster missile and one plasma torp so that I have something to fire at range 3. The addition of guidance chimps is going to make it that much better.

In the current meta, which at least in my area is dominated by 2-3 ship builds and TLT's, the Punisher lasts a surprisingly long time with high hp and low agility. It's a nice balance alongside my Soontir and Carnor.

Remarkably similar to the list I worked up for my first ever full 100-point game.

Redline + Extra Munitions, Plasma Torpedoes, Cluster Missiles, Ion Bombs, Cluster Mines, Fire Control System, and Munitions Failsafe. Plus a naked Soontir Fel and Carnor Jax.

Probably way too much invested in a single bird, but I'm just starting out. Don't know yet what kind of ordnance I'll enjoy the most, so might as well try them all and see how things go.

In the current meta, which at least in my area is dominated by 2-3 ship builds and TLT's, the Punisher lasts a surprisingly long time with high hp and low agility. It's a nice balance alongside my Soontir and Carnor.

Remarkably similar to the list I worked up for my first ever full 100-point game.

Redline + Extra Munitions, Plasma Torpedoes, Cluster Missiles, Ion Bombs, Cluster Mines, Fire Control System, and Munitions Failsafe. Plus a naked Soontir Fel and Carnor Jax.

Probably way too much invested in a single bird, but I'm just starting out. Don't know yet what kind of ordnance I'll enjoy the most, so might as well try them all and see how things go.

Redline is highly unlikely to ever completely miss (from my experience running her several times it has only happened once or twice) so I think the Munitions Failsafe is kind of a waste. I would ditch the bombs to get Baron Fel some gear. While she has a good deal of HP, she does die quite often because 1 Agility is pretty terrible.

In the current meta, which at least in my area is dominated by 2-3 ship builds and TLT's, the Punisher lasts a surprisingly long time with high hp and low agility. It's a nice balance alongside my Soontir and Carnor.

Remarkably similar to the list I worked up for my first ever full 100-point game.

Redline + Extra Munitions, Plasma Torpedoes, Cluster Missiles, Ion Bombs, Cluster Mines, Fire Control System, and Munitions Failsafe. Plus a naked Soontir Fel and Carnor Jax.

Probably way too much invested in a single bird, but I'm just starting out. Don't know yet what kind of ordnance I'll enjoy the most, so might as well try them all and see how things go.

Redline is highly unlikely to ever completely miss (from my experience running her several times it has only happened once or twice) so I think the Munitions Failsafe is kind of a waste. I would ditch the bombs to get Baron Fel some gear. While she has a good deal of HP, she does die quite often because 1 Agility is pretty terrible.

I just wanted to point out that Redline is a guy.

Am I the only one that seems to find them adequate, especially when given Sensor Jammers? In fact, despite conventional wisdom on loading on upgrades, so far my Redline has done remarkably well by packing different ord that is useful in different situations (namely Plasma Torps, Concussion Missiles, Adv. Homing Missiles, and an assortment of mines, usually one of each type of detonation).

Redline is highly unlikely to ever completely miss (from my experience running her several times it has only happened once or twice) so I think the Munitions Failsafe is kind of a waste. I would ditch the bombs to get Baron Fel some gear. While she has a good deal of HP, she does die quite often because 1 Agility is pretty terrible.

The more I think about it, the more I think you're right, though I am going to stick with it for this weekend, at least. Learning experience, and all that.

havn't rolled below max hits with Redline's TL + G-chips

not yet, anyway, in about 6 games (with chips)

savaged the hell out of a 1 agility scum list and low agility targets in general, which predictably included a lot of TLT Ys and then either a YV-666 or a B depending on the faction

wanted to test it on Poe, who got utterly annihilated the last few times I ran across him without chips, but the last game v him he was being a **** and targeting redline so the FOs had to get him

ofc, that's just your red dice. I make no promises versus bull green dice, but the expectation is that they'll have to spend tokens (though, realistically, they're taking at least a damage) and will therefore be easy prey for a pair of Juke FOs and an Omega Crackshot

I really wish my punishers were just a few points cheaper too. =/ bombs get so expensive. And they have no defenses versus a lot of things. TLT for one.

They're a single Hitpoint tougher than ay-wing, a ship itself overpriced but for the power of the turret slot.

You could get away with them priced at 19pts to maintain the 'fiction of balance'and they'd still not be overpowered... But that's FCS or EM for 21pts. 25pts for EM+Concussion/PTorp would've been pretty shiny.

27pts? Yeah, no. That's why it's an Aces ship; it's a good thing that they came up with properly decent aces!

I really wish my punishers were just a few points cheaper too. =/ bombs get so expensive. And they have no defenses versus a lot of things. TLT for one.

the best defense v TLTs is blowing them the **** up before they shoot

boost helps too, ofc

Deathrain is either the MVP or the first dead. Even at a point or two cheaper she/he's be pretty **** nasty. I'd be fine with that. Some boost to bombs will eventually come to the Imperial faction and then watch out.

Redline is a dude. But also I would put any bombs on a 2nd Punisher, or I would only use the cheap ones.

Interceptors without Autothrusters and stealth device/hull upgrade are not any more survivable than regular TIE Fighters.

So you could throw in Mauler Mithel and Backstabber for the same results.

Especially since you aren't running Push the Limit on them. Soontir without Push the Limit is like Chicago style Pizza without Cheese.

*edit Conner Net is great on Deathrain.

Deathrain is a great bomber

" When dropping a bomb, you may use the front guides of your ship. After dropping a bomb you may perform a free barrel roll action."

Add,(Enhanced Scope PS 0), drop cluster mines in front of your enemies face before they move and barrel roll out of the way.. take Extra Munitions.. rinse and repeat... drive them over those mines a few times.. priceless.

My only complaint is FFG was so MISERLY with not printing at least one extra set of cardboard cluster mines with each Punisher.. common.. that gona cost what 2cents?

DEATHRAIN SQUAD

Deathrain squad

100 points

PILOTS

“Deathrain” (37)
TIE Punisher (26), Enhanced Scopes (1), Extra Munitions (2), Cluster Mines (4), Cluster Mines (4)

“Scourge” (17)

“Youngster” (16)
TIE Fighter (15), Calculation (1)

Epsilon Squadron Pilot (15) x 2