Asked the following to FFG and got a response (not one I'm happy with):
In response to your rules question:
That seems consistent with all the other rulings.
Juke lets you convert an evade result into a focus result, and the reinforce token allows you to add an evade result to the pool, so it makes sense it would be a valid target for Juke.
An evade result is an evade result no matter where it came from.
That seems consistent with all the other rulings.
Juke lets you convert an evade result into a focus result, and the reinforce token allows you to add an evade result to the pool, so it makes sense it would be a valid target for Juke.
An evade result is an evade result no matter where it came from.
The problem I have is that re-enforce is about the only defense an epic has (besides the shields), so a Juke swarm pretty much is even deadlier than a TLT swarm now against epics.
The problem I have is that re-enforce is about the only defense an epic has
I get that, but RAW he couldn't really rule any other way.
That seems consistent with all the other rulings.
Juke lets you convert an evade result into a focus result, and the reinforce token allows you to add an evade result to the pool, so it makes sense it would be a valid target for Juke.
An evade result is an evade result no matter where it came from.
The problem I have is that re-enforce is about the only defense an epic has (besides the shields), so a Juke swarm pretty much is even deadlier than a TLT swarm now against epics.
Yes and no.
First of, it still costs an action to have that evade token unless you have something like comm relay, but that means a minimum of what, 22 points for a tie fighter/FO? A basic TLT Y-Wing costs 24, so balance wise, it's not that far off (and the Y-Wing either has the turret aspect or the full forward firing on top of no added defense dice at range 3, which is pretty nice). Crackshot is more worthwhile in my opinion than juke, but that's just me.
Second, it's not because a huge ship's evade result is transformed into a focus that it automatically means that the focus result is useless:
- The Raider has the assailer title which (if we follow the same logic) should be able to transform that focus result back into an evade. Not bad for a 2 point title.
- The Rebel transport has the Bright Hope title (which on its own is awesome)
- The Imperial Transport has the suppressor title to remove that evade (a friend used it to remove focuses off proton rocket A-Wings, he was really happy)
- Rebels in general can use Esege's focus to restore that evade result.
I might have missed a few and some of these options might be more attractive than others. The point that I'm trying to make, however, is that Juke is hardly the end of the world, especially in epic where a concentrated burst of firepower can take care of any ship with too many upgrades.
That seems consistent with all the other rulings.
Juke lets you convert an evade result into a focus result, and the reinforce token allows you to add an evade result to the pool, so it makes sense it would be a valid target for Juke.
An evade result is an evade result no matter where it came from.
The problem I have is that re-enforce is about the only defense an epic has (besides the shields), so a Juke swarm pretty much is even deadlier than a TLT swarm now against epics.
Yes and no.
First of, it still costs an action to have that evade token unless you have something like comm relay, but that means a minimum of what, 22 points for a tie fighter/FO? A basic TLT Y-Wing costs 24, so balance wise, it's not that far off (and the Y-Wing either has the turret aspect or the full forward firing on top of no added defense dice at range 3, which is pretty nice). Crackshot is more worthwhile in my opinion than juke, but that's just me.
Second, it's not because a huge ship's evade result is transformed into a focus that it automatically means that the focus result is useless:
- The Raider has the assailer title which (if we follow the same logic) should be able to transform that focus result back into an evade. Not bad for a 2 point title.
- The Rebel transport has the Bright Hope title (which on its own is awesome)
- The Imperial Transport has the suppressor title to remove that evade (a friend used it to remove focuses off proton rocket A-Wings, he was really happy)
- Rebels in general can use Esege's focus to restore that evade result.
I might have missed a few and some of these options might be more attractive than others. The point that I'm trying to make, however, is that Juke is hardly the end of the world, especially in epic where a concentrated burst of firepower can take care of any ship with too many upgrades.
True.. I had forgotten about some of these options... but in general Impetuous on the Raider is going to be taken more often than Assailer. Esege is only useful when attacking not defending.
(...)
True.. I had forgotten about some of these options... but in general Impetuous on the Raider is going to be taken more often than Assailer. Esege is only useful when attacking not defending.
My own epic build uses the Assailer, but that's because I boost my Raider to PS8 with Howlrunner (Decoy) and focus all firepower to destroy a single ship before it gets a chance to fire back. My Raider loves to eat Y-Wings and B-Wings that way; it's part of a healthy diet 
That seems consistent with all the other rulings.
Juke lets you convert an evade result into a focus result, and the reinforce token allows you to add an evade result to the pool, so it makes sense it would be a valid target for Juke.
An evade result is an evade result no matter where it came from.
One thing looking through the rules and order of events. Attacker Modifies the defense dice, then defender modifies, includes spending or adding results. So technically, Juke happens before the reinforce is added to the result. Unless they are treating the reinforce as a rolled evade die.
That seems consistent with all the other rulings.
Juke lets you convert an evade result into a focus result, and the reinforce token allows you to add an evade result to the pool, so it makes sense it would be a valid target for Juke.
An evade result is an evade result no matter where it came from.
One thing looking through the rules and order of events. Attacker Modifies the defense dice, then defender modifies, includes spending or adding results. So technically, Juke happens before the reinforce is added to the result. Unless they are treating the reinforce as a rolled evade die.
That's a nice catch. I'm rereading the huge ship rules and I find this:
"When a ship with a reinforce token is defending, the reinforce token adds one result to its defense roll, but only if that token is assigned to the targeted section."
The "modifying dice" entry in the rules reference states that adding a die result is a modification. So then the only way that Frank's ruling would make sense is if the "adds one result to its defense roll" happens before the modification step (step 5). If it does, it would mean, in my opinion, that the reinforce action in the huge ships rule should be clarified to make it obvious as I would have made the same mistake myself.
(Although to be fair, many rules in the huge ship rules need to be clarified)
That seems consistent with all the other rulings.
Juke lets you convert an evade result into a focus result, and the reinforce token allows you to add an evade result to the pool, so it makes sense it would be a valid target for Juke.
An evade result is an evade result no matter where it came from.
One thing looking through the rules and order of events. Attacker Modifies the defense dice, then defender modifies, includes spending or adding results. So technically, Juke happens before the reinforce is added to the result. Unless they are treating the reinforce as a rolled evade die.
That's a nice catch. I'm rereading the huge ship rules and I find this:
"When a ship with a reinforce token is defending, the reinforce token adds one result to its defense roll, but only if that token is assigned to the targeted section."
The "modifying dice" entry in the rules reference states that adding a die result is a modification. So then the only way that Frank's ruling would make sense is if the "adds one result to its defense roll" happens before the modification step (step 5). If it does, it would mean, in my opinion, that the reinforce action in the huge ships rule should be clarified to make it obvious as I would have made the same mistake myself.
(Although to be fair, many rules in the huge ship rules need to be clarified)
It's adding one to the roll, and not the results. I think that's the distinction.
It's adding one to the roll, and not the results. I think that's the distinction.
Yes, it's another case of the 'mushy' timing for modifications that we've seen in the last few emails from Frank.
Apparently if the card mentions anything about when the modification happens, it happens at that point, and not in the normal modification steps that the rules list.
So in this case the Reinforce token adds the result to the roll dice step, rather than the modification step.
It's possible I'm not being fair, the timing rules may actually be intentional and well defined in their minds. So that the card overrules the normal timing in the rules.
This is all about timing, so it looks like it does work the way Frank says. From the Huge ship rules on reinforce:
When a ship with a reinforce token is defending, the reinforce token adds one evade result to its defense roll (assuming the it is counting as a rolled evade).
So you roll the dice, and add the reinforce evade. Which happens before he modify dice step, which allows the attacker to change it to a focus.
So Assailer on the Raider is about the only defense it will have to change that result back after it has been modified by the attacker.
It's adding one to the roll, and not the results. I think that's the distinction.
Yes, it's another case of the 'mushy' timing for modifications that we've seen in the last few emails from Frank.
Apparently if the card mentions anything about when the modification happens, it happens at that point, and not in the normal modification steps that the rules list.
So in this case the Reinforce token adds the result to the roll dice step, rather than the modification step.
It's possible I'm not being fair, the timing rules may actually be intentional and well defined in their minds. So that the card overrules the normal timing in the rules.
I guess that most of Frank's recent spate of emails seem to validate what I had assumed all along, so it didn't really shake up my world view. The rules set default timings for dice modification and dice cancellation (though they recently got rid of that) and unless an ability had a more specific trigger things happened with the default timing. Anything that was just a "When Attacking" or "When Defending" uses the default timing as it is setting a trigger condition instead of a timing window.
so it didn't really shake up my world view.
It makes sense to me now... I think what got me was that in Armada it seems pretty cut and dry, all modifications take place in the proper modification step, there are as far as I know no exceptions to this, at least not yet.
So when they changed the X-Wing rules to match Armada, I assumed it meant the same thing, that all modifications would take place in that step. That clearly isn't the case.
Myself I'd prefer it if it were, and we just ignored any mentions of timing on the cards, but apparently they feel the wording on the card trumps everything else. So I'll adjust my thinking from now on.
Played a 300-point Epic match last night, my CR90 and escort against an Imperial player with two TIE swarms.
The swarm that scared me the most was the 5 X TIE/fo swarm (plus Howlrunner) with Juke and Comm Relay. Rendered the CR90 reinforce useless.
We called the game on time before he got to attack the CR90 (he ended up chasing points hunting down my fighters) -but Juke seems incredibly powerful against Epic ships.
Is there a counter to Juke for the Epic CR90 player besides "fly better" or buy a bigger escort?
(Eske does not help passing focus, as this is only on the attack)