No, a Mary Sue is an 'OP' character that can do no wrong, has always been like that as far as I know.
Warpman, did you read the Wraith Squadron series? It is pretty good and does take a step away from the all shininess of Rouge Squadron. The detail we talk about here is that Wedge has to pose as Ewok, which I found to be pretty funny.
No, a Mary Sue is an 'OP' character that can do no wrong, has always been like that as far as I know.
Ten seconds with google would teach you otherwise.
Nah, that's just what it devolved into since Twilight popularised it. Now it's been watered down to such a stupid extent it's become useless as a piece of criticism.
Pretty much any heroic/aspirational character is reduced to being one, it seems. That and pretty much the entire Young Adult genre.
Edited by __underscore__
No, a Mary Sue is an 'OP' character that can do no wrong, has always been like that as far as I know.
Ten seconds with google would teach you otherwise.
They are both right, the problem is that the term is very loosely "defined". It can be used to mean a self insert character or someone with a mixture of absurd skills and abilities that makes them better than everyone else or a mixture of all of the above.
No, a Mary Sue is an 'OP' character that can do no wrong, has always been like that as far as I know.
Ten seconds with google would teach you otherwise.
"A character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters. Mary Sues are generally presumed to be idealized self-inserts rather than true characters, although they may actually be intended as point-of-view characters for the reader. In fan fiction, it is considered extremely gauche, or at least very immature, for an author to create characters based on him- or herself."
From http://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sueten seconds with Google.
It has the 'OP'-ness aspect up front, the self-insert thing is a common interpretation, not the point of the term. Wikipedia says it is "a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities". Do you have an actual 'scientific article' that would teach me otherwise? I think your snark has failed here 
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/ATrekkiesTale
There you go, that's a fairly concise summary.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/ATrekkiesTale
There you go, that's a fairly concise summary.
Right, that's the classic example but if you look at tropes own section on Mary Sue they even say themselves that they can't define it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#Origin_and_development_of_the_meaning
This section has some good, pretty early, quotes on this - it seems that it was the other way around and the self-insertion only later became a part of the trope and is not universaly recognized.
Sure, and I'm blaming the millennials for that fact. 
Either way, the fact that it's so I'll defined is another reason why I'm happy to consider it a terrible term that needs to finally die it's death on the Internet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#Origin_and_development_of_the_meaning
This section has some good, pretty early, quotes on this - it seems that it was the other way around and the self-insertion only later became a part of the trope and is not universaly recognized.
Sure, and I'm blaming the millennials for that fact.
Either way, the fact that it's so I'll defined is another reason why I'm happy to consider it a terrible term that needs to finally die it's death on the Internet.
It's not as bad as 'Jumping the Shark' though, that's the most misused term in history (besides the word literally).
Sure, and I'm blaming the millennials for that fact.
Either way, the fact that it's so I'll defined is another reason why I'm happy to consider it a terrible term that needs to finally die it's death on the Internet.
It's not as bad as 'Jumping the Shark' though, that's the most misused term in history (besides the word literally).
You mean to say it is literally the most misused term in history? 
It kinda feels like whoever edited that Wikipedia article missed the point of the fan fiction criticism right above it. It's a pretty weird page that.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#Origin_and_development_of_the_meaning
This section has some good, pretty early, quotes on this - it seems that it was the other way around and the self-insertion only later became a part of the trope and is not universaly recognized.
Mary Sue syndrome is not limited to fan fiction.
And it's omnipresent, eternal, it is a curse that shivers in a jaded halo barely visible behind the head of Lukas and every character of his franchise
It kinda feels like whoever edited that Wikipedia article missed the point of the fan fiction criticism right above it. It's a pretty weird page that.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#Origin_and_development_of_the_meaning
This section has some good, pretty early, quotes on this - it seems that it was the other way around and the self-insertion only later became a part of the trope and is not universaly recognized.
Mary Sue syndrome is not limited to fan fiction.
And it's omnipresent, eternal, it is a curse that shivers in a jaded halo barely visible behind the head of Lukas and every character of his franchise
One question, do you even like Star Wars? Some tolerance for this stuff is required to enjoy it, I believe.
It kinda feels like whoever edited that Wikipedia article missed the point of the fan fiction criticism right above it. It's a pretty weird page that.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#Origin_and_development_of_the_meaning
This section has some good, pretty early, quotes on this - it seems that it was the other way around and the self-insertion only later became a part of the trope and is not universaly recognized.
Mary Sue syndrome is not limited to fan fiction.
And it's omnipresent, eternal, it is a curse that shivers in a jaded halo barely visible behind the head of Lukas and every character of his franchise
One question, do you even like Star Wars?
I like star wars, so long as it's war and stars.
not soap opera and family affair.
Clone war period is the best that ever was in SW.
because it's star.wars.
better politics than bubble drama
Edited by WarpmanYou're completely not contributing anything to the discussion. Please post only relevant information that would serve someone well to read and not waste their time on your politics.
Back to the thread topic.
Keep those ships flying, girls!
This would make some awesome alternate art.
Back to the thread topic.
Keep those ships flying, girls!
This would make some awesome alternate art.
Sure would once you get the people out of the way so we can see the ships.
BECAUSE YOU'RE ACCUSTOMED TO YOUR IDENTITY BEING THE DEFAULT. Can you not fathom how that might be different if you were a member of a gender/race/sexuality that wasn't quite so spoiled for choice in terms of role models in films/comics/TV/whatever that looked like them?
That's the metaphor. Representation is money. You've been swimming in it so long you not only can't fathom how it might be scarce and precious to someone else, you've actually got the nerve to lecture that person about how it shouldn't ****ing matter to them.
Sorry everyone. That's me done for the thread.
Actually, I can't fathom the concept of being so dependent on an imaginary character as a "role model," based solely on their race or sex, particularly to the point that you would avoid a game or movie which lacks such a character. I don't feel catered to in most forms of media, nor do I feel any need to be catered to - that's what I meant when I said "grow up." The characters of Star Wars are great because of what they did, not because of their skin color or their sex. I don't feel any need to "identify" with them - I just sit back and enjoy the fantasy for what it is. My point is that I don't need someone to look like me to identify with them - why do you? I've played many games with female leads, and I didn't sit there thinking "Wow! This game needs more males!"
If you feel "represented" by tiny plastic TIE fighters or X-Wings, then I will leave you to that - whatever floats your boat.
Jibberish.
Half the fun of this game is that it is set in a fantasy setting; the lore, the fluff, the fun of it is as important as the little plastic ships we push around - whether we are children or adults. And for many people a feeling of empathy and association is as natural a part of that enjoyment as rolling the dice or opening the box on a new shiny. Natural, normal and fun!
If then a key demographic tells you they would enjoy the game more if they had more characters that they identified with, why not listen?
Strikes me as natural; nobody here is talking about quotas or Vader getting in touch with his inner interior designer. Just a few more female pilots to spread the joy to some new players - that simple!
More players means more fun for all of us surely.
Jibberish? Right back at'cha! The key question remains unanswered: Do you avoid movies or games because you feel you can't identify with the characters solely on the basis of sex? If so, that is not a normal, natural or fun mindset - it's a sign of over-politicizing everything with a rather sexist bent. It's the same thing as a guy saying "I can't identify with women, so I'm not going to see the new Ghostbusters movie - maybe if it had more men in it." That doesn't strike you as somewhat bizarre and ridiculous?
I have no problem if FFG decided to add more female pilots to curry favor with a rising "key demographic" (which doesn't actually exist as anything other than a small minority, and I suspect that the percentage of current female pilots far exceeds the percentage of female X-Wing players), but to claim that there need to be more female pilots because "representation" or "equality" is just silly and obnoxious PC garbage.
@ Coldreaver
You seem determined to read a political agenda into my post where one patently does not exist.
Let me clarify; I am Male White Anglo-Saxon Potestant, and comfortably well-off (achieved without stomping on any homeless people or murdering a single kitten). I could not care less about quotas, gender politics, "equality" or anything else. My politics are my own business, but lean toward the conservative.
I do not however see anything wrong with saying that 1) I like women, 2) I would like to play more x-wing (including with women) 3) they are telling us that they would like more female pilots to make the game more fun for them. Where is the "obnoxious" politics in that?
One of the only people bringing political garbage into the discussion is you when you misquote other posters to push your own views on what is acceptable. Case in point - you allege that I am claiming that women are a key demographic in the existing x-wing community. Only a moron in a hurry could think such a thing - clearly they currently are not; but it is equally obvious that the point I was making was that they are a key demographic in a general sense (a numerical rather than a political fact) and that it makes perfect sense to want them to feel included in the community.
Please stop projecting your own paranoid politics onto others; just because some of us agree with the OP (for all the reasons stated throughout the thread), it does not make us necessarily into paid up feminists boycotting any movie that happens to have a white male lead!
Nonsense.
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