Would a necromancied monster appear in a new dungeon level in RtL (if yes, where exactly)? Would it be removed (either finally or to be replaced in the next level) the moment the controlling hero enters the portal? Or could it still be activated each round and has to check for stability afterwards?

Monsters can't enter the portal, so there would be no way to get a monster from one level to the next.

Familiars also change levels, not necessarily via portal, so what exactly is your point?

Necromanced monsters aren't familiars for one. I haven't been able to find anything that describes familiar movement between dungeons (In the FAQ, Rulebook, or GLOAQ), so the only reason I think that they do is because the familiar itself is a skill, and heroes always have their skills available in dungeon (I can't think of a situation where they don't), while the monster isn't the skill necromancy, just the effect of using the necromancy spell.

In our group, I'd rule that as long as the familiar entered /before/ the heroes left the level, it would be allowed to go down with them, but would have to roll for being destroyed the turn it enters the portal.

He's not a familiar. He's a monster under the heroes control.

Fair enough that he's not... let me rephrase...

If there is a necromancy applied monster, I'd let the heroes bring it along with them to the next level, if it moved into the portal before then, and the portal would cause an automatic check to see if the monster collapses.

Kard said:

Except for the FAQ which states:

Q: May the overlord spawn monsters on or move monsters into the dungeon level exit portal spaces?
A: No. Monsters may never enter or be spawned in these spaces for any reason.

Note that it says "for any reason".

Personally, I would say that implies necromancied monsters may not enter the portal and therefore do not move with the hero to the next level.

Come on people, from the FAQ it was very clear from the beginning that a Necro´ed monster would never move into the portal.

The question is: How is a familiar handled whose owner just entered the portal?

a) Can the familiar can enter the portal (although there is no benefit I can see for doing so)?

b) Does the familiar function as usual after the hero left through the portal? I guess that was basically answered for outdoor encounters, in which familiars still work as normal even if the controlling hero was killed.

c) When is the familiar removed from the board after its owner entered the portal? I guess as soon as the last hero enters portal or glyphs to town, triggering the end of the current level and set-up of the next level, including set-up of the familiar, having jumped magically to the new level.

While a) is excluded for Necro´ed monsters as per the FAQ entry, b) and c) could still work the same for them as it does for familiars.

Parathion said:

I don't know why you think that if familiars work one way than Necromanced monsters should work the same way. Never in the Necromancy card is the affected model referred to as a familiar. Indeed, no. It says it works just as a monster under the control of the OL would, except that the hero is in control of the monster.

For c) I've already said that there is no explicit implication of how familiars move from one level of the dungeon to the other. The only explanation is that a familiar is either a skill or a piece of equipment, and there is never a case of heroes losing access to their skills or equipment as they move through a dungeon. Necromancy the skill is not the same as a monster raised by Necromancy. And monsters are expressly forbidden from entering the portal (the only other means of moving between dungeon levels)

As for b) Hero death (as in encounters) has no effect on Necromanced monsters. It's never mentioned in the card that the hero must stay alive. However, should the heroes flee an encounter, they wouldn't get the necromanced monster for much the same reason as for c). The key is that a new dungeon area is an entirely new board.

SamVimes said:

There are implicit rules for familiars entering a new dungeom level.
There are no such rules for necromancied monsters.
Therefore, familiars can and do accompany the heroes on the next level. Necromancied monsters can't and don't.

Familiar setup rules:
1. When a new level is set up, the old level is removed and is no longer in play. Everything related to that level is gone. Only the heroes move on (familiars being part of a hero, necromancied monsters being merely under the control of a hero, not part of a hero.)
2. When setting up a new level "the hero players place their figures on or adjacent to the activated glyph as normal." (RtL pg 17, 'as normal' being a reference to vanilla descent setup rules).
3. DJitD pg 6 " each hero player places his figure on the map on or adjacent to an activated glyph, with no more than one figure in each space."
4. DJitD pg 17 " The marker representing a familiar begins the game in the same space as the familiar’s owner."

Necromancied monsters are part of a dungeon, merely under control of a hero. Familiars are an integral part of a hero, not just under control.
You might be reminded that the term 'familiar' (in this context) is almost always rather a lot more than a pet. 'Familiars' are generally 'bound' to their owner/partners by permanent ritual bonds of a very deep and personal nature. That is rather different from a minor, temporary, necromantic control over a dead body...

Thanks Corbon. I looked (unsuccessfully) for the specifics of familiars in RTL, and so had to build an argument around the conventional and almost universal assumption that familiars move from level to level of the dungeon with the heroes.

Corbon said:

Err, I am sorry to be unable to follow that logical chain. Defining a ruleset for one special type of game items (familiars) while not defining a ruleset for a different special type (Necro´ed monsters) does not immediately exclude the second special type from being treated the same way as the first. Especially not within Descent rules, which simply do not allow for such conclusions, as you, Corbon, et al. have demonstrated on countless occasions.

I agree there are no rules for N´s, but we at least have to take into account that this was just another oversight when the RtL rules were written.

Necromancied monsters are part of a dungeon, merely under control of a hero. Familiars are an integral part of a hero, not just under control.
You might be reminded that the term 'familiar' (in this context) is almost always rather a lot more than a pet. 'Familiars' are generally 'bound' to their owner/partners by permanent ritual bonds of a very deep and personal nature. That is rather different from a minor, temporary, necromantic control over a dead body...

Thematic argument, great! If I was a hero controlling a monster I would definitely see that my minion would enter the next level together with me, that it would fight for me until my control over it collapses.

Edit: Stupid quotation function...

I would honestly allow it.

Keep in mind, the dungeon levels are supposed to a broken apart vanilla quest, broken apart for our convenience (play in shorter time) and for greater randomness/replayability. But the spirit of the game is that this is just like a vanilla quest, going through different areas of one dungeon. Necromancied monsters don't go away between areas, so I see no reason to not allow them to continue with you between dungeon levels. Just make sure placement is legal on the next dungeon level.

Now granted, this is how *I* would play it, following what I deem as the spirit of the game. I'm not suggesting there are any rules to back this up, just how I think the creators would want the game played

-shnar

Hmm... let's suppose that controlled monsters stay with heroes. How would you set up next level? Often there are only four spaces adjacent to the starting glyph Can controlled monsters be in the same space as a hero?

I would simply place the monster adjacent to the controlling hero - this is always a good rule of thumb if two figures are caught/set up in the same space (and has been specifically clarified for the Acrobat/Monster door trap combination).

Udutont said:

Like I said, just make sure the placement is legal. In this case, that would mean the hero is touching the Glyph and the necroed monster is touching the hero (which would mean the necromancer has to be one of the forefront heroes).

-shnar

Parathion said:

To your first point, applying rules that are specific to one part of the game (familiars) to another (necromancied monsters), even though the second case has it's own rules associated with it and tells you how to use them (just as the OL controlling a monster. Note, the OL can't move a monster from one level to the other, so why should a hero when it says the necromanced monster works in the same way as monsters controlled by the OL?) is nothing more than you deciding what you want the rules to say, and not what the rules are. The only thing that Necromancied monsters have in common with familiars is that they are not heroes, but they are controlled by a hero player. That's it.

As to the second point, Corbon's argument wasn't a thematic argument. There was one bit of thematic explanation at the end to help you swallow the rules, but his argument was based off of FAQ rulings.

If you want to house-rule Necromancied monsters being able to move between dungeon levels, that's fine. But that's what it is, a house rule.

Count me in on the side of "the rules are quite clear, but if you want to house rule necromancied monsters following heroes to the next level, and the group agrees with it, then there's no reason not to."