At long range, a corvette has one red dice in its battery out of its sides, and its rear firing arcs.

Normally, when attacking an enemy ship at long range, if this attack is obstructed then you can't attack as that red dice is removed from the pool.

My question is: Assuming that Admiral Ackbar is affecting the corevette, does the red dice for Ackbar affect the corvette first, and THEN remove one red die, resulting in rolling two red dice? Or does the red dice get removed first, and then no shot is able to be taken?

And finally, when considering your answer: does that work the same way with Slaved Turrets, Concentrate Fire command dial, Enhanced Armaments, etc.

If you're able to cite any official rules to back up your statement i'd be much obliged

No.

Obstructions remove the Die from your pool at a Specific Time... Between when you Pick them up... And before you Roll them...

This is before the Modify dice step, where you would add the Dice for such things as Slaved Turrets, Concentrate Fire and Admiral Ackbar.


HOWEVER

Enhanced Armaments effects your Battery armament, so it is added when you Gather your Dice , before you Roll them, and before You Remove a Die for Obstruction...


Enhanced Armaments, Rapid Reload, and Expanded Launchers (so far) are the only way to add dice at that step.

Give me a moment, and I'll grab the link of the previous rules discussion where this was discussed

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/197334-obstruction-vs-most-wanted-timing/


For actual Rules Citation:


Page 2, RRG, "attack"
|

2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.

◊ If the defender is a ship, gather the attack dice indicated in the attacking hull zone’s or squadron’s battery armament.

◊ If the defender is a squadron, gather the attack dice indicated in the attacker’s anti-squadron armament.
◊ If the attacker cannot gather any dice appropriate for the range of the attack, the attack is canceled.

THERE IS AN ADDENUM HERE, HOWEVER, BELOW

3. Resolve Attack Effects: The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below: ◊ Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects and the P command.


ADDENUM:

RRG, PAge 8, "Obstruction"

If an attack is obstructed by one or more ships or obstacles, the attacker must choose and remove one die from his attack pool before he rolls dice during the “Roll Attack Dice” step.

Ergo, No Dice at the Range gathered = Attack Cancelled

Again another fantastic answer. Thanks for clearing that up Dras! There's a few Ackbar players in my local meta, so its great to get some official understanding of how this plays out.

As it is an Add to Pool effect, it also does not count for the Objective Fire Lanes as well, as that only counts Battery Armament

I hear another point for me to bring up the difference between "increase" and "add" again!

Cards with the the words "increase" (I.e. Rapid Reload and Enhanced Armaments) take effect when you are in the "gather attack pool"

Cards that "Add" are apart of the Modify step per page 7 of the Rules Reference Guide (bottom right of the page)

I hear another point for me to bring up the difference between "increase" and "add" again!

Cards with the the words "increase" (I.e. Rapid Reload and Enhanced Armaments) take effect when you are in the "gather attack pool"

Cards that "Add" are apart of the Modify step per page 7 of the Rules Reference Guide (bottom right of the page)

I hear another opportunity to tell Lyr he's wrong again!

Cards which modify your Battery (e.g. by increasing it) have a permanent effect which is resolved in the Gather Attack Pool step (which instructs you to gather and roll the dice corresponding to your battery).

Cards which modify your Attack Pool (e.g. by adding or removing dice) take effect in the Modify step (which instructs you to apply anything which affects your dice).

At present, all (or rather, both)* cards affecting your battery use the word "increase", from which Lyr is (incorrectly) inferring that this is an operative keyword with its own timing. Correlation does not imply causality.

* EDIT: It's three cards now. Oops.

I hear another point for me to bring up the difference between "increase" and "add" again!

Cards with the the words "increase" (I.e. Rapid Reload and Enhanced Armaments) take effect when you are in the "gather attack pool"

Cards that "Add" are apart of the Modify step per page 7 of the Rules Reference Guide (bottom right of the page)

I hear another opportunity to tell Lyr he's wrong again!

Cards which modify your Battery (e.g. by increasing it) have a permanent effect which is resolved in the Gather Attack Pool step (which instructs you to gather and roll the dice corresponding to your battery).

Cards which modify your Attack Pool (e.g. by adding or removing dice) take effect in the Modify step (which instructs you to apply anything which affects your dice).

At present, all (or rather, both)* cards affecting your battery use the word "increase", from which Lyr is (incorrectly) inferring that this is an operative keyword with its own timing. Correlation does not imply causality.

* EDIT: It's three cards now. Oops.

I doubt you are right. In fact it would be extremely limiting in a game building aspect.

If the only verbiage that was based on increasing your attack pool before the modify step was the word "battery" then they would be unable to make cards that increased the Anti-squadron value of ships (that would be a fun Ion card. . . Hmmm)

Huh? Who said "only"?

If a card alters (increases, decreases, doubles, whatever) your Anti-Squadron armament, then the exact same thing applies as with Battery armament, or Hull value, or Command value, or whatever other stat is on the ship or squadron card. It's a static modification of a parameter , not a one-time modification of the (by definition) temporary Attack Pool.

Enhanced Armament, for example, does not affect your attack pool, which is why the "Modify" rules don't apply. It affects your battery armament - which defines your base attack pool, it doesn't modify it. The exact same thing would happen with a hypothetical card that altered your anti-squadron armament in some way. You would gather the initial attack pool based on the modified armament, but the card itself would not modify the attack pool.

Huh? Who said "only"?

If a card alters (increases, decreases, doubles, whatever) your Anti-Squadron armament, then the exact same thing applies as with Battery armament, or Hull value, or Command value, or whatever other stat is on the ship or squadron card. It's a static modification of a parameter , not a one-time modification of the (by definition) temporary Attack Pool.

Enhanced Armament, for example, does not affect your attack pool, which is why the "Modify" rules don't apply. It affects your battery armament - which defines your base attack pool, it doesn't modify it. The exact same thing would happen with a hypothetical card that altered your anti-squadron armament in some way. You would gather the initial attack pool based on the modified armament, but the card itself would not modify the attack pool.

Actually, Enhanced Armaments does not say Add so of course does not modify but it does effect the Attack Pool during the Roll Attack Dice step.

No it doesn't. It changes your battery armament, which (together with range and line of sight) is the only thing you look at when first gathering the attack pool. EA's continuous effect resolves before the attack pool even begins to exist.

Your argument sounds dangerously close to "range modifies the attack pool during the Roll Attack Dice step, therefore any card that says "range" is resolved in the Roll Attack Dice step" . Which is silly and untrue.

I don't quite understand your second paragraph. . .

Let's put it this way. Add and Increase are verbs used to affect in different ways the Attack Pool. Battery is the noun that is being modified and so is the attack pool.

Right, and you're arguing that the timing depends on the verb (i.e. on how something is modified), while I'm arguing the timing depends on the noun (i.e. what is being modified).

Right, and you're arguing that the timing depends on the verb (i.e. on how something is modified), while I'm arguing the timing depends on the noun (i.e. what is being modified).

Perth is the most Isolated City in the World... Its Further from any other city than anyone else... Out on the other side of the big Red Nullabor from the rest of Civilised Australia, which is already Oceans away from every other country in the World, being an isolated island.......

... But still, you find your way back to this

Airports are really dull places.

Right, and you're arguing that the timing depends on the verb (i.e. on how something is modified), while I'm arguing the timing depends on the noun (i.e. what is being modified).

Except you are already wrong since the verb "Add" is already defined in the rules. Attack Pool can't be what matters because as stated in the rules that is always in effect.

ATTACK POOL

During an attack, the attack pool is comprised of all dice being used for that attack. This includes the dice gathered prior to rolling as well as the dice after they are rolled.

I hear another point for me to bring up the difference between "increase" and "add" again!

Cards with the the words "increase" (I.e. Rapid Reload and Enhanced Armaments) take effect when you are in the "gather attack pool"

Cards that "Add" are apart of the Modify step per page 7 of the Rules Reference Guide (bottom right of the page)

I hear another opportunity to tell Lyr he's wrong again!

Cards which modify your Battery (e.g. by increasing it) have a permanent effect which is resolved in the Gather Attack Pool step (which instructs you to gather and roll the dice corresponding to your battery).

Cards which modify your Attack Pool (e.g. by adding or removing dice) take effect in the Modify step (which instructs you to apply anything which affects your dice).

At present, all (or rather, both)* cards affecting your battery use the word "increase", from which Lyr is (incorrectly) inferring that this is an operative keyword with its own timing. Correlation does not imply causality.

* EDIT: It's three cards now. Oops.

I applaud your never-ending patience in your quest of correcting this. It means that we with less patience don't have to.

At this point I feel that we are arguing about something different than what I am intending.

My point is based on how one figures out what the timing is for a card effect.

As of up to wave 2, all cards with the word "Increase" in the weapons upgrades slots (currently only Turbolasers and Ordnance weapons) take effect when you are gathering your attack pool.

All cards with the word "Add" however work only in the Modify step of the Attack.

So, lets theorise.

When do these cards take effect , and ergo, do they effect such things as Fire Lanes

Unbelievable Armaments

Add One Blue Die to your Rear Battery Armament

Outrageous Launchers

Increase your Attack Pool by 1 Black Die when attacking a Ship at Medium Range

So, lets theorise.

When do these cards take effect , and ergo, do they effect such things as Fire Lanes

Unbelievable Armaments

Add One Blue Die to your Rear Battery Armament

Outrageous Launchers

Increase your Attack Pool by 1 Black Die when attacking a Ship at Medium Range

The Armaments is an Add so it won't effect Fire Lanes.

Fire lanes are not a ship however, they are tokens...

And my immediate argument is that Unbelievable Armaments would, due to the wording of Fire lanes, as it is Added to Battery Armament

Fire lanes (abridged):

To determine control of each token, players measure attack range and line of sight from each of their ships' hull zones as if performing attacks with battery armament targeting that objective token.

Fire lanes state Battery Armament, not Attack Pool...

Also , don't forget that the Upgrade Card trumps the Core Rules when there's a conflict. Add to the Battery would trump the fact that Add is only defined in the core rules as a Modify Dice step.

---

Yes, Add is defined in the Modify Dice step of the rules. The question becomes, do we immediate associate any and all instances of the word add to that rule, or do we still allow the common english definition of the word to take effect as well?

That's the argumentative difference that you and DA have right now... You are (at least appearing) to argue that Add can only mean at that point, because that's the only way its defined in the Rules... DA is saying that Add, although being defined in the rules as a timing statement, could also mean a common definition - ergo, the timing is more important to what is being added to, rather than the word add itself.

Does that synopsis make sense?

I can see that.

If we have Add not mean the same thing at all times then what about While, When, Before, After, etc?

Sure Add could mean a common definition but that is why I believe they use Increase. That way there is no confusion.

Sure Add could mean a common definition but that is why I believe they use Increase. That way there is no confusion.

I agree with that sentiment as well...

The difference of opinion we have is that I have labelled that internally in my head as a circumstantial convention whereas you see it as a hard and fast rule .

I can see that.

If we have Add not mean the same thing at all times then what about While, When, Before, After, etc?

Sure Add could mean a common definition but that is why I believe they use Increase. That way there is no confusion.

The meaningful difference, I believe, is not in the words add and increase, but rather battery value vs attack pool.

I can see that.

If we have Add not mean the same thing at all times then what about While, When, Before, After, etc?

Sure Add could mean a common definition but that is why I believe they use Increase. That way there is no confusion.

The meaningful difference, I believe, is not in the words add and increase, but rather battery value vs attack pool.

That is incorrect. The Attack Pool is constant. Battery is divided between your Ship and Squadron Batteries.

From Page 1 of the Rules Reference Guide.

Armament

Attack Pool

Now here is where Add comes in. (Page 7)

Modifying Dice

As we can see from this, Add is a modification of the Attack Pool. Battery is just the term for the dice that you have to use and choose from for things like Adding and Obstructions (bring it a bit back on topic).

You cant have a card that increases your battery armament with out the word "Increase". As per Modifying Dice, Add is in use. If they put add in there then it would cause confusion on if it was to be used during the modify step or not thus Increase was used.

I can see that.

If we have Add not mean the same thing at all times then what about While, When, Before, After, etc?

Sure Add could mean a common definition but that is why I believe they use Increase. That way there is no confusion.

The meaningful difference, I believe, is not in the words add and increase, but rather battery value vs attack pool.

That is incorrect. The Attack Pool is constant. Battery is divided between your Ship and Squadron Batteries.

From Page 1 of the Rules Reference Guide.

Armament

The attacker’s armament indicates the color and number of dice that can be used during an attack. Anti-squadron armament is used when attacking a squadron. Battery armament is used when attacking a ship.

• Each hull zone of a ship has its own battery armament that it uses when the ship attacks from that hull zone.

• Each squadron has a single battery armament

• A ship has one anti-squadron armament that is used regardless of which hull zone is attacking

Except, you know, that the rule section you quoted yourself states that Battery armament is only used when firing on ships.