Our local Ackbar player is unbeaten with him so far so far. Of course he placed 1st in both Sullest events he played, so he is a good player. I used to go 50/50 against him. but have had no luck beating him when he has used Ackbar yet. He does not run conga line Ackbar and he also uses mid to heavy fighter support as well, so the counters proposed here are not as reliable against him.

What are his usual fleets ? It's interesting to see another Ackbar build

He tends to run 1 ship on the cheaper side as a dedicated objective runner. He then 2-3 "hammer" ships (Whales, Mc-80s). For fighters he has been running mostly As and Sillys lately (last game against him he just took 4-5 of the latter).

He tends to run it as a herding fleet. Tends to start in a corner with ships in different vectors. Ackbar will be in the middle. The ships on the flanks tend to sweep outward in an arc before closing back in, but always keeping the front arc of Ackbar covered with their sides. The fighters tend to deploy between and ahead of the flank and mid ships and a bit forward. They adjust on the first turn to whichever side he feels is the most threatened.

It should also be noted that I only own and play with Empire. I have not played against him using Rebels myself.

I think many responders are confusing beatable with not OP. Here's how you tell if he's OP. How many players have "converted" over to the light side since Ackbar was introduced? What percentage of the time is Ackbar used as the Rebel commander? Are lesser players punching significantly above their weight using Ackbar? If 50% or more of Imp players have flipped, 80% of Rebel lists use Ackbar and lesser players are playing better than they actually are, then yes, Ackbar probably is more powerful than he should be.

My strategy with Imps, and I know some people will recoil with disgust, is to not always go for the 400 pt victory when playing against Ackbar. Kill the less powerful ships and concentrate on objectives. Of course hitting the head or tail of the snake with a nice Demolisher is always a sound strategy. What I don't like is all the whining by Imps. You had it your way in Wave 1 now it's tilted a little more towards Rebs.

I think many responders are confusing beatable with not OP. Here's how you tell if he's OP. How many players have "converted" over to the light side since Ackbar was introduced? What percentage of the time is Ackbar used as the Rebel commander? Are lesser players punching significantly above their weight using Ackbar? If 50% or more of Imp players have flipped, 80% of Rebel lists use Ackbar and lesser players are playing better than they actually are, then yes, Ackbar probably is more powerful than he should be.

My strategy with Imps, and I know some people will recoil with disgust, is to not always go for the 400 pt victory when playing against Ackbar. Kill the less powerful ships and concentrate on objectives. Of course hitting the head or tail of the snake with a nice Demolisher is always a sound strategy. What I don't like is all the whining by Imps. You had it your way in Wave 1 now it's tilted a little more towards Rebs.

Ackbar is far from over powered. Considering he gives 2 extra red dice for dedicating fire from side arcs it's a nice upgrade but it isn't a auto win for Rebs. Alright we all know Rebs mostly love side arc shots but red dice are the worst dice and tend to have a higher chance at rolling out blanks. Sure it gives the MC80 a bit more of a punch but for the most part it's only going to get one shot due to no Gunnery Team upgrade slot unleash you are slashing which is risky too. If you try running it on a whale with Gunnery team you don't have an ion upgrade slot to put in Leading shots for those re-rolls you might need.

The Admirals are fairly well balanced. No one stands out as OP. Now if Ackbar knew how to make those 2 Red dice some how turn into 2 black dice we might have a different story.

Where I think Ackbar hurts is if the Rebs run a Whale, or MC80, win the bid to go second and someone picks Advanced Gunnery. If your player 1 you pretty much signed your own death warrant.

I'm going to make a RhymerBall/Fireball is OP thread, followed up by a Demolisher is OP thread and a Warlord H9 is OP thread.

Plus staying on topic, Motti is a pain in the arse as you pretty much have to target his ship first to win. Pisstake.

I use the Demolisher to hit in the rear with expanded launches and ET but as one person mentioned I always take a massiv hit getting into position and a smart rebel player will park b-wings and the lie, on his ass to take out th Demolisher.

Ozzel with 3 speed ships and engine techs seems to be the best strategy against Ackbar with a tractor beam to traffic jam that thing as also noted earlier.

OP is for beginners. It is easy to for people with just 15 or less games to not be able to handle Ackbar so beginners should probably stay clear of using him or giving Ackbar to the beginner.

I think he's referring to the CR90B cruise missile list. Don't know that I saw you around here at that time, so sorry if I'm telling a story you already know here, but: during the Dark Times between Sullust and Wave 2, somebody came up with the idea of strapping Engine Techs onto a bunch of CR90B's, sitting Rieekan in one, and using them as ram-happy cruise missiles. The IFF guys got wind of it and mentioned it on the show, and so there was a week or so there where some people thought it might be the unstoppable cheese of the wave before it was play-tested and shown to be crap.

I don't think it's good, and I don't think I've ever seen it work well. Ramming is a useful tool to keep in your pocket and use as appropriate, but I don't think building for it is a good idea. Especially with how expensive ET is, you're setting yourself up for a series of pretty disadvantageous trades. It's just one of those things that looks good on paper but doesn't really work well on the table.

Ramming the lead ship of Akbar fleet is sweet with An ISD and gunnery teams to the second follower. Of course, the stagger of the gun line prevents this which I imagine more people will employ

I'm going to make a RhymerBall/Fireball is OP thread, followed up by a Demolisher is OP thread and a Warlord H9 is OP thread.

Plus staying on topic, Motti is a pain in the arse as you pretty much have to target his ship first to win. Pisstake.

Quality first post. :<

Ackbar is far from over powered. Considering he gives 2 extra red dice for dedicating fire from side arcs it's a nice upgrade but it isn't a auto win for Rebs. Alright we all know Rebs mostly love side arc shots but red dice are the worst dice and tend to have a higher chance at rolling out blanks. Sure it gives the MC80 a bit more of a punch but for the most part it's only going to get one shot due to no Gunnery Team upgrade slot unleash you are slashing which is risky too. If you try running it on a whale with Gunnery team you don't have an ion upgrade slot to put in Leading shots for those re-rolls you might need.

Akbar and its own is not OP, however Akbar + gunnery team is OP. Once again OP doesn't mean unbeatable just better than the other options.

In a competitive perspective and as a rebel player I would never consider play something else than Akbar the only exception would be for a Cr90 swarm where I would run mon mothma, I consider this fact as a problem as a Rebel player , being forced toward a certain strategy is frustrating and kill the diversity.

So it is not only about whiny Imp players.

EDIT : Well the FFG forums wiped my long post because I probably messed up the BBCode, so I'm retracting my statement

Ackbar is far from over powered. Considering he gives 2 extra red dice for dedicating fire from side arcs it's a nice upgrade but it isn't a auto win for Rebs. Alright we all know Rebs mostly love side arc shots but red dice are the worst dice and tend to have a higher chance at rolling out blanks. Sure it gives the MC80 a bit more of a punch but for the most part it's only going to get one shot due to no Gunnery Team upgrade slot unleash you are slashing which is risky too. If you try running it on a whale with Gunnery team you don't have an ion upgrade slot to put in Leading shots for those re-rolls you might need.

Akbar and its own is not OP, however Akbar + gunnery team is OP. Once again OP doesn't mean unbeatable just better than the other options.

In a competitive perspective and as a rebel player I would never consider play something else than Akbar the only exception would be for a Cr90 swarm where I would run mon mothma, I consider this fact as a problem as a Rebel player , being forced toward a certain strategy is frustrating and kill the diversity.

So it is not only about whiny Imp players.

As a Rebel player, I have to respectfully disagree. There are plenty of other combos out there. I'm winning well with Garm, Independence, Yavaris, and B-Wings, including against Ackbar lists.

As a Rebel player, I have to respectfully disagree. There are plenty of other combos out there. I'm winning well with Garm, Independence, Yavaris, and B-Wings, including against Ackbar lists.

Yes they are plenty of combos out there, yes some of them are competitive , yes you can definitely win with them but I still think that they are inferior to an Akbar list.

As a Rebel player, I have to respectfully disagree. There are plenty of other combos out there. I'm winning well with Garm, Independence, Yavaris, and B-Wings, including against Ackbar lists.

Yes they are plenty of combos out there, yes some of them are competitive , yes you can defently with them but I still think that they are inferior to an Akbar list.

Well I see there is no changing your mind. Personally, I like this whole "Ackbar is OP" myth. I find him to be one of my easier match ups, so the more he's used the easier my life is =)

As a Rebel player, I have to respectfully disagree. There are plenty of other combos out there. I'm winning well with Garm, Independence, Yavaris, and B-Wings, including against Ackbar lists.

Yes they are plenty of combos out there, yes some of them are competitive , yes you can defently with them but I still think that they are inferior to an Akbar list.

Even though my post got scrapped and I was retracting, yours makes me want to jump in on the conversation again First of all, a disclaimer : I might be vocal in my response (the French passion and all), but this is by no means a personal attack or directed against you.

I'm thoroughly tired of people saying "it's over powered" or "it's more competitive than other combos" when they have no metrics to back up their statement. Seriously, what metrics do you use to measure the power level of an Ackbar list ? And what do you define what is over powered, from an objective point of view rather than a subjective perception of a reality.

So, tell me, what makes a combo over powered ? You told a few pages ago that it was "a combo which power level was way higher than the average power level of combos". Fair enough, so how do you measure the average power level of combos and how do you measure if something is above that ? Is it over the Dutch/Wedge power level ? Is it over the Demolisher + ACM + Screed power level ? Is it over the Salvation + Intel Officer + XI7 power level ? Is it over 9000 ?

On a more level headed tone, my point is : there are so many variables in a wargame to define objectively what makes a combo more powerful than other combos, because it's all dependent on many factors within the game, and within the dice rolled that you can't really pre emptively define what is stronger than other things, especially when we can't even define objectively what is strong. Of course, there are subjective definitions, but by nature subjectives depend on the personal approach of everybody.

I used proper damage measurements a few pages back to show that Ackbar + XI7 wasn't that damaging (see how I use damaging versus powerful) because a simple Engineering Dial + Token would mitigate 40 to 60% of the damage inflicted (and in essence, negate the bonus of Ackbar).

So, yeah, if your definition of powerful is "forcing the opponent to spend Engineering Commands", then I'm afraid we don't have the same definition of what makes something powerful In terms of pure metrics, Ackbar brings more damage at all ranges so his biggest strength is reliability of effect and damage (much like Screed but differently).

And finally, can we please stop talking about combos all the time ? Sure, ensuring proper synergy betwenn the ships is a key component of winning the game, but comboing isn't always the optimal part of list building : it works for some fleets while other fleets look for the effectiveness of individual ships, and sometimes the search for combos get really out of hand into the unoptimal way. A combo I saw quite a bit in my meta in Wave 1 was Warlord + H9 Turbolasers, for 16 points it ensured that you could change a hit into a double hit. 16 points is 5% of the points cost of a fleet at 300 points, so my question is : is 1/20th of your fleet worth an extra damage from a ship each turn (possibly 2 if you got a side arc) ? When you think about it, 18 points brings you 2 TIE Bombers which are arguably more interesting both against ships and squadrons.

Ackbar is no more OP than Mon Mothma with 2 MC-30's with Foresight and Admonition/Walex or 6 CR-90A's with TLRC's and squadrons or Motti ISD's. You just have to figure out how to play it.

So, tell me, what makes a combo over powered ? You told a few pages ago that it was "a combo which power level was way higher than the average power level of combos". Fair enough, so how do you measure the average power level of combos and how do you measure if something is above that ? Is it over the Dutch/Wedge power level ? Is it over the Demolisher + ACM + Screed power level ? Is it over the Salvation + Intel Officer + XI7 power level ? Is it over 9000 ?

You make a good point by saying that without any data we can't have an objective overview on what is going on. That is true, there is no way to check who is holding the truth but it is also true the other way around. How do you measure that Akbar is not OP? So what we are saying on this topic is almost purely based on perception.

My perception is that akbar +gunnery team add 4 red dices to each of your AF II for only 38pts+7pts per ship. It is too good and very hard to counter since it is red dice so it combines large arc and long range. That goes without saying that the AF was already considered as the best rebel ship in wave 1.

It is my perception that will or win't be confirm in future competitive tournaments, but the fact that so many people on the forum are thinking about a counter to Akbar prove that the combo is already warping up the format, and also kind of indicate that it might be too good.

I might be vocal in my response (the French passion and all), but this is by no means a personal attack or directed against you.

Don't worry I am French too and this is why I will now go on a strike to manifest against the overpowerness of the Akbar list.

.

Is there a way to datamine on the vassal games played so far? Going by the built lists at warlords one could assume that ackbar is quite a favorite commander, but that tells nothing about his success on the table, only about his fame.

MoffZen, about the one statement from you:

Is it over the Dutch/Wedge power level ? Is it over the Demolisher + ACM + Screed power level ? Is it over the Salvation + Intel Officer + XI7 power level ? Is it over 9000?

Difficult to say, but I see at least one major difference. All those listed combos affect a single ship only, ackbars (potentially OP) synergy works with any ship that is allowed to take gunnery teams. One hint that this might have been considered by FFG as well is that the MC80 is the only med/large ship without access to that upgrade, one other might be the time it took for them to clarify if the ackbar+gunnery team synergy is working as intended (was a rules question at some point).

Is there a way to datamine on the vassal games played so far? Going by the built lists at warlords one could assume that ackbar is quite a favorite commander, but that tells nothing about his success on the table, only about his fame.

MoffZen, about the one statement from you:

Is it over the Dutch/Wedge power level ? Is it over the Demolisher + ACM + Screed power level ? Is it over the Salvation + Intel Officer + XI7 power level ? Is it over 9000?

Difficult to say, but I see at least one major difference. All those listed combos affect a single ship only, ackbars (potentially OP) synergy works with any ship that is allowed to take gunnery teams. One hint that this might have been considered by FFG as well is that the MC80 is the only med/large ship without access to that upgrade, one other might be the time it took for them to clarify if the ackbar+gunnery team synergy is working as intended (was a rules question at some point).

Ackbar was the third most successful commander in the Holiday Tournament, at about 60% win:loss ratio. Dodonna and Vader both did better. The sample size overall is still pretty small, though. I hope to do the same analysis on the current tournament once it's over, and a compiled analysis between the two, to get a little better data.

Personal experience, I find Mon Motha infinitely more of a headache than I do Ackbar.

Last game I played I seriously toyed with taking my opponents Advanced Gunnery Objective and he was using 2 MC 80s tricked out, with a fighter compliment, and Ackbar, meaning he would have got to shoot twice from one arc at the same target (he thought I was nuts), my reasoning being with the initiative and a decked out Demolisher Gladiator I thought it would be pretty easy to get 2 activations (4 lots of shots) from it before he could use Ackbars ship once. In the end I went with contested outpost, to force him to be somewhere. Ackbar died at the start of turn 3 having only had two activations, and his MC80 went with him, The Demolisher lived up to its reputation, acting last turn two, first turn three, and goodbye 170pts of ship and Admiral.

Mon Mothma on the other hand....Taken with MC30's, Corvettes and an AFMK II, them 2 evade tokens, and the unique ship names for the MC30's are horrible, ignore 2 dice, discard tokens to ignore dice, remove dice at med range, reroll at close range, much much bigger pita than Ackbar.

It is fairly easy to not put two ships into side arcs for gunnery teams to shoot at, it is not fairly easy to get around Mon Mothma super powered Evade tokens.

My perception is that akbar +gunnery team add 4 red dices to each of your AF II for only 38pts+7pts per ship. It is too good and very hard to counter since it is red dice so it combines large arc and long range.

4 red dice have a damage expectation of 3, and you are spreading that over 2 ships. Yes, you may get that 1:4096 roll and get 8 damage, however the chances of getting 4 misses at the other end of the bell curve of probabilities is more likely by comparison.

Screed + Assault Concussion Missiles or Assault Photon Torpedoes may easily exceed that in a single shot. You may discard a blank dice or single damage dice and turn up another to Damage/Critical icons, then add two shield damage from ACM for 3/4 damage or 2/3 with APT. So I question your perception of what makes something over powered. Screed is a lower points commander than Ackbar yet has a far flatter damage potential with far more reliable damage. Add Gunnery Teams into that if you may and then it just gets an order of magnitude better, even though you may be relying on a natural critical from the dice rolled on the second target. If you get a critical on the first roll and you don't need to apply Screed to that roll if you know you are making a second.

Now I have noticed something else, what happens if you fly an ISD with the lead ship of the Ackbar Conga? The aim isn't exactly to stay out of the side arc of the lead ship as much as to limit the ships you have in his side arcs to just that lead ship. At the same time you have a few ships running the flanks of that ship in echelon as to discourage that lead ship to turn into yours and as you deal with the lead target they themselves start to arc the second ship along the same line while the first cuts back down the slash.

It is all about overlapping your arcs of fire, a conga line has a bit of a blind spot to the front of each ship. So the overlapping of fire arcs is just not there, what you may find you end up in the side arc of the first but if you limit the second and third ships to side shots, your opponent is not getting the best he has. I imagine that you'll probably be spamming Navigation Commands as to adjust speed and yaw to best effort. You may also want to bid as to make your opponent first player and therefore commit his line to its movement before you move. Thus if he does begin to wheel into you you can adjust and change direction as to remain in front of his ships as best you are able.

So, tell me, what makes a combo over powered ? You told a few pages ago that it was "a combo which power level was way higher than the average power level of combos". Fair enough, so how do you measure the average power level of combos and how do you measure if something is above that ? Is it over the Dutch/Wedge power level ? Is it over the Demolisher + ACM + Screed power level ? Is it over the Salvation + Intel Officer + XI7 power level ? Is it over 9000 ?

You make a good point by saying that without any data we can't have an objective overview on what is going on. That is true, there is no way to check who is holding the truth but it is also true the other way around. How do you measure that Akbar is not OP? So what we are saying on this topic is almost purely based on perception.

My perception is that akbar +gunnery team add 4 red dices to each of your AF II for only 38pts+7pts per ship. It is too good and very hard to counter since it is red dice so it combines large arc and long range. That goes without saying that the AF was already considered as the best rebel ship in wave 1.

It is my perception that will or win't be confirm in future competitive tournaments, but the fact that so many people on the forum are thinking about a counter to Akbar prove that the combo is already warping up the format, and also kind of indicate that it might be too good.

Actually by going off the original post and title of this thread, the burden of proof is on that claim. It is not up to others to prove that it is not overpowered.

I'll add by saying 'Its over 9000!' is classic!

Ackbar is no more OP than Mon Mothma with 2 MC-30's with Foresight and Admonition/Walex or 6 CR-90A's with TLRC's and squadrons or Motti ISD's. You just have to figure out how to play it.

GUUUYYYYYSSSS!!!!!

SSSSSSSSHHHH dont ruin it for me

Keys to stopping Ackbar (who is indeed a very good admiral, but very pricey):

1. Get into their front arcs (many ways to do this) with some of your ships. This forces tough choices.

2. Disrupt their formation. No. 1 will often help with this, as Ackbar fleets are typically very formation-driven. Multiple tractors beams are also effective.

3. Play the range game. This typically involves Rhymer and Boosted Comms/Rogues (i.e. Firesprays).

4. Utilize your own mobility and greater activation flexibility to stay the hell out range - until you're ready to pounce (Ozzel is esp. good at this).

Or: just go with Ackbar yourself, just do it better